I have an erie feeling that Villager will be nerfed badly

[Antonykun]

People still have trouble killing with Villager?

Villager legitimately has trouble killing because her kill moves required hard reads.

 

[Darklink401]

Villager legitimately has trouble killing because her kill moves required hard reads.

I never have trouble killing XP

Even turnips and bair can kill as low as 100% or so.

 

[AnchorTea]

diddy, rosalina, sonic, pikachu, zss, sheik, lucario, ness, fox, yoshi, mario, megaman, greninja, mii brawler, falcon, peach, bowser, olimar, rob, wario, pacman, duck hunt, little mac, robin imo are all better.



Villager doesn't have a wide array of options that's why I'd think he'd go down. The more people learn to abuse his terrible mobility and grab the more he'd go down. He doesn't have good options to deal with people who mixup their defensive options well (shields, rolls, spotdodges). Sub-par invincible dodge options compared to the rest of the cast, poor frame data outside nair and jab. He tends to struggle vs rush down chars which make up most of the higher end of characters and even a lot of the slower chars have answers to him (rosalina and palutena with GP and reflector, Megaman's projectiles beating out ours, Lucario takes huge advantage of villager's struggle to kill and his double team amazing counter vs lloid, etc.). I think right now a lot of people don't know a lot about villager, but the more people learn about his gimmicks the less effective they'll be (Ex: dropping bowling balls of ledges, but a lot of the cast can just hit it with their recovery and it deactives the hitbox, same with the tree and slingshot pellets).

I think if he had just a little bit more he could be pretty good like any one of having a little bit more ground speed or air speed, slightly better grab, if 1 turnip didn't exist, etc. But like I said, his bad mobility and grab I think are his killers, these 2 qualities are super important in smash and by not having them I think that opens a lot of windows for people to fight AGAINST villager which outweigh the potential he has for him to fight against other characters.

Why is Mega Man considered a bad matchup for Villager?

 

[Darklink401]

Why is Mega Man considered a bad matchup for Villager?

He can outprojectile Villager.

It's really tough. He's also got a deadly shieldgrab game, since his grab IS a killthrow at higher percents.

But basically, it can be summed up to this

3 pellets > 1 pebble

 

[AnchorTea]

He can outprojectile Villager.

It's really tough. He's also got a deadly shieldgrab game, since his grab IS a killthrow at higher percents.

But basically, it can be summed up to this

3 pellets > 1 pebble

Play defensively then.

 

[Darklink401]

Play defensively then.

If you are forced to play defensively, it's a bad matchup.

XD

 

[captain clutch]

diddy, rosalina, sonic, pikachu, zss, sheik, lucario, ness, fox, yoshi, mario, megaman, greninja, mii brawler, falcon, peach, bowser, olimar, rob, wario, pacman, duck hunt, little mac, robin imo are all better.



Villager doesn't have a wide array of options that's why I'd think he'd go down. The more people learn to abuse his terrible mobility and grab the more he'd go down. He doesn't have good options to deal with people who mixup their defensive options well (shields, rolls, spotdodges). Sub-par invincible dodge options compared to the rest of the cast, poor frame data outside nair and jab. He tends to struggle vs rush down chars which make up most of the higher end of characters and even a lot of the slower chars have answers to him (rosalina and palutena with GP and reflector, Megaman's projectiles beating out ours, Lucario takes huge advantage of villager's struggle to kill and his double team amazing counter vs lloid, etc.). I think right now a lot of people don't know a lot about villager, but the more people learn about his gimmicks the less effective they'll be (Ex: dropping bowling balls of ledges, but a lot of the cast can just hit it with their recovery and it deactives the hitbox, same with the tree and slingshot pellets).

I think if he had just a little bit more he could be pretty good like any one of having a little bit more ground speed or air speed, slightly better grab, if 1 turnip didn't exist, etc. But like I said, his bad mobility and grab I think are his killers, these 2 qualities are super important in smash and by not having them I think that opens a lot of windows for people to fight AGAINST villager which outweigh the potential he has for him to fight against other characters.

Villager has an amazing edgeguard game, given the fact that so many of his moves are projectiles. While that can also be his downfall, as you mentioned, I think it gives him a lot of options still. I don't find him having trouble killing. One could argue that characters like Sheik and Pikachu have trouble killing. Villager can't combo and rack up damage as much as those characters, but he can kill at earlier percents than them.
He does have trouble against fast, rush, down characters (Sonic, Mac, Falcon) It seems near impossible to grab them. And in a game where grabs and grab follow-ups are so prominent, Villy's poor grab is a significant disadvantage.
His off stage and range game, plus recovery, make up for that, imo

Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, Ness, Rosaluma, Yoshi, ZSS, Luigi, and Brawler I agree are better than him. But after that, I put Villager in the same group/tier as Pikachu, Mario, Falcon, Lucario, and Fox. Followed by Megaman, Shulk, Peach, Mac, ROB, Olimar.

Of course, these are opinions. But I do enjoy discussions!

 

[Darklink401]

Actually, as opposed to most people, I'd say Little Mac is incredibly BAD against Villager. Mac has to put in so much work, when Villager just needs a nair and fair, and they dead.

 

[captain clutch]

On paper, it does seem like Villager has a huge advantage against Mac and that's definitely the case if Villy can get him off stage. But Good Little Mac players who can play "defensively" and patiently, can punish a lot of Villager's moves. and can jab combo quicker than Villy can do any move, or grab.

 

[Darklink401]

On paper, it does seem like Villager has a huge advantage against Mac and that's definitely the case if Villy can get him off stage. But Good Little Mac players who can play "defensively" and patiently, can punish a lot of Villager's moves. and can jab combo quicker than Villy can do any move, or grab.

If you don't play dumb, even good Little Mac players are more than manageable.

Same goes for Captain Falcon, easily gimpable.

The biggest threats are Sonic, ZSS and Sheik,because of their great recoveries.

 

[AnchorTea]

Actually, as opposed to most people, I'd say Little Mac is incredibly BAD against Villager. Mac has to put in so much work, when Villager just needs a nair and fair, and they dead.

I don't get why people say this. When I face Mac, I get rekt.

 

[PigglyJuff]

Villager is top 15 material, most definitely. Top 10? Perhaps, though he has some tough competition. Top 5? Nah.

I've played against a game and watch player, and its SO frustrating trying to get back, unless I just say screw it and recover way high. Villager's recovery is amazing, in distance and mixups, but lacks any REAL safety. You can always just recover to the other side, but that wont always save you. If you could up B out of lloid, itd be a lot better.

Villager has incredibles moves overall, save his grab, but I find it interesting that the stuff people thought was OP in Villager is slowly becoming less OP, and the stuff that seemed meh is now seeming OP (aka, slingshot)


What really screws over Villager, is that faster characters can just rush him, and he is forced to take a much more defensive approach, but characters like Sheik and Captain Falcon can easily overwhelm him. With characters like Captain Falcon, its awalsy possible to early-kill him with fairs and stuff, so it is very volatile for both parties, but characters like Sheik and ZSS, have insane, safe recoveries.

However, Villager can destroy slow and/or tall characters, such as Ganon, Dedede, Ike, etc, or characters like Marth and lucina, that act with no projectiles.

His FF fair can hit any character, except for pink crouching puffballs, but overall its more useful on taller characters.


Reflectors shut down 80% of Villager's viable movepool, not even being able to fsmash safely.


Villager IS OP, yes. He can destroy a big part of the cast, yes. But his downfall, albeit padded by the existence of his amazing nair, comes with the inability to really deal with rushdowns.

He requires no nerf, IMO.

Seriously? Reflect?

Reflect lloid? Down air. reflect tree? expect it and axe him.

If anything, reflects are more mind game potential for Villager

 

[Darklink401]

Seriously? Reflect?

Reflect lloid? Down air. reflect tree? expect it and axe him.

If anything, reflects are more mind game potential for Villager

Yes, reflect
Because reflectors can reflect dash attack, fsmash, fair, bair, lloid, and tree.

So while some allow for mindgames, not being able to fsmash, fair/bair or dash attack at will, without at least considering the possibility of them being reflected, is asking for death.

 

[Antonykun]

Play defensively then.

just for the record offensive villager > defensive villager vs campers

 

[AlextheTwin]

I'd be shocked if villager was nerfed. Definitely not OP. Like others said, fast characters have a huge advantage over him.

 

[zeezee]

Seriously? Reflect?

Reflect lloid? Down air. reflect tree? expect it and axe him.

If anything, reflects are more mind game potential for Villager

Somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

I cannot believe somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

Somebody really just said that lmao

diddy, rosalina, sonic, pikachu, zss, sheik, lucario, ness, fox, yoshi, mario, megaman, greninja, mii brawler, falcon, peach, bowser, olimar, rob, wario, pacman, duck hunt, little mac, robin imo are all better.

Agree with the list except I would probably remove Robin cause that character is just downright terrible and I would add Toon link, Shulk, and GnW.

I would probably add the pits as well, but I don't know anything about them.

Don't tell nobody though cause they'll think you're crazy, but just wait a few years for the game to develop more and they'll know.

 

[Antonykun]

Somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

I cannot believe somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

Somebody really just said that lmao



Agree with the list except I would probably remove Robin cause that character is just downright terrible and I would add Toon link, Shulk, and GnW.

I would probably add the pits as well, but I don't know anything about them.

Don't tell nobody though cause they'll think you're crazy, but just wait a few years for the game to develop more and they'll know.

Um way less than half of her moveset is reflectable like only the Slingshots, Lloyd, DA, Timber, and F-smash are reflectable. You shouldn't be using DA and F-smash that much. You don't actually want to hit with Lloyd , but rather you want to get a reaction from them, which is what reflecting does. Timber is pocketable so all that leaves is Slingshot which most reflectors don't want to bother with. Reflectors can benefit Villager as they are highly punishable when respected. As for player1 list I can't argue with it too much.

 

[Darklink401]

Um way less than half of her moveset is reflectable like only the Slingshots, Lloyd, DA, Timber, and F-smash are reflectable. You shouldn't be using DA and F-smash that much. You don't actually want to hit with Lloyd , but rather you want to get a reaction from them, which is what reflecting does. Timber is pocketable so all that leaves is Slingshot which most reflectors don't want to bother with. Reflectors can benefit Villager as they are highly punishable when respected. As for player1 list I can't argue with it too much.

What's DA?

Also lloid is really the only good thing about fighting reflectors.

Sure you might get a pocketed timber, but its a dangerous game. I'd rather not play that.


And keep in mind that slingshot is a big part of Villager's arsenal, since his thing is air game, and you take that away, in the air, he only has turnips.

Trust me, trying to SH fair someone, just to get reflected, feels HORRIBLE and hurts.

 

[Antonykun]

What's DA?

Also lloid is really the only good thing about fighting reflectors.

Sure you might get a pocketed timber, but its a dangerous game. I'd rather not play that.


And keep in mind that slingshot is a big part of Villager's arsenal, since his thing is air game, and you take that away, in the air, he only has turnips.

Trust me, trying to SH fair someone, just to get reflected, feels HORRIBLE and hurts.

Dash Attack.

 

[Darklink401]

Dash Attack.

Oh aight

Yeah dash attacking into someone and having them reflect it is.....

actually strange to me.

Villager, you are strange.

 

[zeezee]

Um way less than half of her moveset is reflectable like only the Slingshots, Lloyd, DA, Timber, and F-smash are reflectable. You shouldn't be using DA and F-smash that much. You don't actually want to hit with Lloyd , but rather you want to get a reaction from them, which is what reflecting does. Timber is pocketable so all that leaves is Slingshot which most reflectors don't want to bother with. Reflectors can benefit Villager as they are highly punishable when respected. As for player1 list I can't argue with it too much.

I was exaggerating naturally lmao, but it honestly might as well be half her move-set given how reliant she is on most of them. I disagree with the not using F-smash as much (unless you meant on reflector characters only) because it has such a tiny amount of cool down that its easily one of villagers best moves and kills at like 60 percent. I'm well aware of how you should be using lloyd on characters with reflectors and absorbs and such, but what you're forgetting is that none of villagers aerials are safe on shield (which is how you would usually want to punish a baited reflect rather than running into taking a lloid to the face), so essentially what that means is that you can't throw out a lloyd and expect your opponent to reflect it every single time like a dummy when they could just mix it up and just block everything and punish you. What I'm trying to say is that just because you have a way around reflectors does not mean that your opponent having the option to reflect your projectiles gives villager more "potential" of any kind. If getting his projectiles reflected did make villager better somehow, then all your opponent would have to do is to NOT use their reflector ever and play against villager like they would against any other character and so villager still wouldn't really receive any more potential from it in the end, but clearly that isn't even the case here. Similarly, Ganondorf not having projectiles does not give him more potential against villager because villager has the ability to pocket items. They are situational abilities (Reflectors, Absorbs, etc), meaning that they are for aiding the characters in specific purposes, but the characters can successfully make do without the use of them. If using the reflector backfires on you somehow...you can just choose not to use it because why would you use an optional option that is more likely to hurt you than it is to aid you? Again were talking about the highest level of play here, we are not counting bad players or players who don't know the match-up to determine somethings worth in the highest level of competitive play.

...Wait what? Timber being pocket-able makes reflectors good for villager? You do know that your opponent can still reflect the pocketed tree as well right? And that it will retain all the newly gained power it has from being pocketed no? If I had the choice to do so, I think I would rather not risk the chance of being 0 to death'd especially when its much more likely for me to be 0 to death'd than it is for my opponent to be considering they can reflect it right in my face.

I'm gonna get a little real here for a second and I really don't want to discourage any players from using villager cause I'm incredibly grateful to you all for bringing something fresh to the table in a meta-game saturated by Diddy Kongs and Shieks, but this is just how I really feel. Over time I've come to the conclusion that soloing villager is a bad idea if you aim to consistently win tournaments because of just how bad some match-ups are for him. Its easily possible if you only use him in doable match-ups even if they are slightly in your opponents favor, but I think you would need to main a good character first and foremost ( I would recommend Shiek.) I think villager could be a really good character and he has some really good match-ups, but the problem is that some match-ups are so bad, that they make him significantly worse than he should be by default. A top player whom I can't remember right now called it at the very beginning of the game stating that Villager is a counter-pick character. I didn't really pay much mind to it at first because I didn't want to believe it, but over time I've come to realize what that really means and why he thinks Villager is that. Its just in the nature of his design because of how he was built, usually when a character is an extreme of something their match-ups tend to be either really good or really bad. The problem with that is that this kind of character is bad for tournament play where you have to fight all kinds of characters and so you will naturally encounter the really bad ones at some point despite going through the really good ones. When you really think about it, unless the tournament is very low on players you will often fight more players than you will have "lives" (winners and losers bracket so two lives) in a tournament. It only takes two bad match-up encounters to be eliminated despite having gone through 6+ players already that could have all been good match-ups, but again just those two really bad ones were enough to knock you out. Characters who aren't as good as Villager, but have more balanced match-ups will always have skill triumph over all and so they would still probably place higher than Villager despite not being as good a character. This is also why you never see any Little Macs win any tournaments, too much of an extreme if you get what I'm saying. You did see like one of the players that topped APEX occasionally use Little Mac AS A COUNTER-PICK (the duck hunt dog player)...but again ONLY as a counter-pick. People who solo these characters usually know this, but they still play the character as a labor of love for the character and/or for wanting to help spice up the meta-game.

THAT'S JUST ME THOOOO, controversial opinions aside I personally don't have any intentions of dropping the character any time soon or turning him into a counter-pick despite knowing this, but I've come to the point where I respect someones decision to do so if they are playing for the wins.

 

[Darklink401]

I was exaggerating naturally lmao, but it honestly might as well be half her move-set given how reliant she is on most of them. I disagree with the not using F-smash as much (unless you meant on reflector characters only) because it has such a tiny amount of cool down that its easily one of villagers best moves and kills at like 60 percent. I'm well aware of how you should be using lloyd on characters with reflectors and absorbs and such, but what you're forgetting is that none of villagers aerials are safe on shield (which is how you would usually want to punish a baited reflect rather than running into taking a lloid to the face), so essentially what that means is that you can't throw out a lloyd and expect your opponent to reflect it every single time like a dummy when they could just mix it up and just block everything and punish you. What I'm trying to say is that just because you have a way around reflectors does not mean that your opponent having the option to reflect your projectiles gives villager more "potential" of any kind. If getting his projectiles reflected did make villager better somehow, then all your opponent would have to do is to NOT use their reflector ever and play against villager like they would against any other character and so villager still wouldn't really receive any more potential from it in the end, but clearly that isn't even the case here. Similarly, Ganondorf not having projectiles does not give him more potential against villager because villager has the ability to pocket items. They are situational abilities (Reflectors, Absorbs, etc), meaning that they are for aiding the characters in specific purposes, but the characters can successfully make do without the use of them. If using the reflector backfires on you somehow...you can just choose not to use it because why would you use an optional option that is more likely to hurt you than it is to aid you? Again were talking about the highest level of play here, we are not counting bad players or players who don't know the match-up to determine somethings worth in the highest level of competitive play.

...Wait what? Timber being pocket-able makes reflectors good for villager? You do know that your opponent can still reflect the pocketed tree as well right? And that it will retain all the newly gained power it has from being pocketed no? If I had the choice to do so, I think I would rather not risk the chance of being 0 to death'd especially when its much more likely for me to be 0 to death'd than it is for my opponent to be considering they can reflect it right in my face.

I'm gonna get a little real here for a second and I really don't want to discourage any players from using villager cause I'm incredibly grateful to you all for bringing something fresh to the table in a meta-game saturated by Diddy Kongs and Shieks, but this is just how I really feel. Over time I've come to the conclusion that soloing villager is a bad idea if you aim to consistently win tournaments because of just how bad some match-ups are for him. Its easily possible if you only use him in doable match-ups even if they are slightly in your opponents favor, but I think you would need to main a good character first and foremost ( I would recommend Shiek.) I think villager could be a really good character and he has some really good match-ups, but the problem is that some match-ups are so bad, that they make him significantly worse than they should be by default. A top player whom I can't remember right now called it at the very beginning of the game stating that Villager is a counter-pick character. I didn't really pay much mind to it at first because I didn't want to believe it, but over time I've come to realize what that really means and why he thinks Villager is that. Its just in the nature of his design because of how he was built, usually when a character is an extreme of something their match-ups tend to be either really good or really bad. The problem with that is that this kind of character is bad for tournament play where you have to fight all kinds of characters and so you will naturally encounter the really bad ones at some point despite going through the really good ones. When you really think about it, unless the tournament is very low on players you will often fight more players than you will have "lives" (winners and losers bracket so two lives) in a tournament. It only takes two bad match-up encounters to be eliminated despite having gone through 6+ players already that could have all been good match-ups, but again just those two really bad ones were enough to knock you out. Characters who aren't as good as Villager, but have more balanced match-ups will always have skill triumph over all and so they would still probably place higher than Villager despite not being as good a character. This is also why you never see any Little Macs win any tournaments, too much of an extreme if you get what I'm saying. You did see like one of the players that topped APEX occasionally use Little Mac AS A COUNTER-PICK (the duck hunt dog player)...but again ONLY as a counter-pick. People who solo these characters usually know this, but they still play the character as a labor of love for the character and/or for wanting to help spice up the meta-game.

THAT'S JUST ME THOOOO, controversial opinions aside I personally don't have any intentions of dropping the character any time soon or turning him into a counter-pick despite knowing this, but I've come to the point where I respect someones decision to do so if they are playing for the wins.

I completely agree on the whole "Sheik" thing, she's definitely a great character to pocket if you main Villager.

Also rather than disencouraging furthering Villager's gameplay, I think that it has to be said.

If you want to win tournaments with Villager, be prepared to have a character in your pocket to cover Villager's bad MUs.

That being said

Villager is a great counterpick character to have. I've even thought of making him my second main, next to Sheik, but alas, I do better with Villager, even though I'm great with Sheik. Not really planning to switch him out at all.

 

[Antonykun]

My point on Villager vs reflectors is that reflectors are laggy enough to punish and if you make the read then you DO have a scenario where Villager HAS an advantage it is small, a good player will rarely fall for it, and a good portion of the time it makes traps more difficult, but it does exist as a scenario.

A pocketed Tree is more of intimidation. Like you can't play too crazy without getting smacked by a tree.

Anyways I really do believe that Villager is better as a counter pick character. If that's what viability means then I would drop a bunch of characters from Player 1's list.

I should use more F-smash more often.

 

[captain clutch]

I was exaggerating naturally lmao, but it honestly might as well be half her move-set given how reliant she is on most of them. I disagree with the not using F-smash as much (unless you meant on reflector characters only) because it has such a tiny amount of cool down that its easily one of villagers best moves and kills at like 60 percent. I'm well aware of how you should be using lloyd on characters with reflectors and absorbs and such, but what you're forgetting is that none of villagers aerials are safe on shield (which is how you would usually want to punish a baited reflect rather than running into taking a lloid to the face), so essentially what that means is that you can't throw out a lloyd and expect your opponent to reflect it every single time like a dummy when they could just mix it up and just block everything and punish you. What I'm trying to say is that just because you have a way around reflectors does not mean that your opponent having the option to reflect your projectiles gives villager more "potential" of any kind. If getting his projectiles reflected did make villager better somehow, then all your opponent would have to do is to NOT use their reflector ever and play against villager like they would against any other character and so villager still wouldn't really receive any more potential from it in the end, but clearly that isn't even the case here. Similarly, Ganondorf not having projectiles does not give him more potential against villager because villager has the ability to pocket items. They are situational abilities (Reflectors, Absorbs, etc), meaning that they are for aiding the characters in specific purposes, but the characters can successfully make do without the use of them. If using the reflector backfires on you somehow...you can just choose not to use it because why would you use an optional option that is more likely to hurt you than it is to aid you? Again were talking about the highest level of play here, we are not counting bad players or players who don't know the match-up to determine somethings worth in the highest level of competitive play.

...Wait what? Timber being pocket-able makes reflectors good for villager? You do know that your opponent can still reflect the pocketed tree as well right? And that it will retain all the newly gained power it has from being pocketed no? If I had the choice to do so, I think I would rather not risk the chance of being 0 to death'd especially when its much more likely for me to be 0 to death'd than it is for my opponent to be considering they can reflect it right in my face.

I'm gonna get a little real here for a second and I really don't want to discourage any players from using villager cause I'm incredibly grateful to you all for bringing something fresh to the table in a meta-game saturated by Diddy Kongs and Shieks, but this is just how I really feel. Over time I've come to the conclusion that soloing villager is a bad idea if you aim to consistently win tournaments because of just how bad some match-ups are for him. Its easily possible if you only use him in doable match-ups even if they are slightly in your opponents favor, but I think you would need to main a good character first and foremost ( I would recommend Shiek.) I think villager could be a really good character and he has some really good match-ups, but the problem is that some match-ups are so bad, that they make him significantly worse than they should be by default. A top player whom I can't remember right now called it at the very beginning of the game stating that Villager is a counter-pick character. I didn't really pay much mind to it at first because I didn't want to believe it, but over time I've come to realize what that really means and why he thinks Villager is that. Its just in the nature of his design because of how he was built, usually when a character is an extreme of something their match-ups tend to be either really good or really bad. The problem with that is that this kind of character is bad for tournament play where you have to fight all kinds of characters and so you will naturally encounter the really bad ones at some point despite going through the really good ones. When you really think about it, unless the tournament is very low on players you will often fight more players than you will have "lives" (winners and losers bracket so two lives) in a tournament. It only takes two bad match-up encounters to be eliminated despite having gone through 6+ players already that could have all been good match-ups, but again just those two really bad ones were enough to knock you out. Characters who aren't as good as Villager, but have more balanced match-ups will always have skill triumph over all and so they would still probably place higher than Villager despite not being as good a character. This is also why you never see any Little Macs win any tournaments, too much of an extreme if you get what I'm saying. You did see like one of the players that topped APEX occasionally use Little Mac AS A COUNTER-PICK (the duck hunt dog player)...but again ONLY as a counter-pick. People who solo these characters usually know this, but they still play the character as a labor of love for the character and/or for wanting to help spice up the meta-game.

THAT'S JUST ME THOOOO, controversial opinions aside I personally don't have any intentions of dropping the character any time soon or turning him into a counter-pick despite knowing this, but I've come to the point where I respect someones decision to do so if they are playing for the wins.

I've recently come to this conclusion too. Not that my Villager is the best, I still have much room for improvement, but I've noticed I'm getting close to as far as Villy alone can take me. In tournaments either online or local, the Diddys, Sheiks, and Sonics among other top tier characters constantly place ahead of me. Not that I think Villager is holding me back, but like you said, he's a good counterpick character that just struggles against a lot of the top portion of the cast.
Because of this, I've started to pick up Pikachu and I'm determined to put in as much work in with him as I did with Villager. Is this a good pocket/2nd main to have.

 

[Darklink401]

I've recently come to this conclusion too. Not that my Villager is the best, I still have much room for improvement, but I've noticed I'm getting close to as far as Villy alone can take me. In tournaments either online or local, the Diddys, Sheiks, and Sonics among other top tier characters constantly place ahead of me. Not that I think Villager is holding me back, but like you said, he's a good counterpick character that just struggles against a lot of the top portion of the cast.
Because of this, I've started to pick up Pikachu and I'm determined to put in as much work in with him as I did with Villager. Is this a good pocket/2nd main to have.

Pikachu is fast, and has good combo potential. He can rack up damage fast, and deal fairly well with the matchups Villager struggles with.

I think it's a fine choice.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

Somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

I cannot believe somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit.

Somebody really just said that lmao



Agree with the list except I would probably remove Robin cause that character is just downright terrible and I would add Toon link, Shulk, and GnW.

I would probably add the pits as well, but I don't know anything about them.

Don't tell nobody though cause they'll think you're crazy, but just wait a few years for the game to develop more and they'll know.

Having your moves reflected is an advantage in some situations because of pocket. If you can pocket a tree or bowling ball someone has reflected back at you, it becomes an instakill. Also, most good villagers will bait the reflect with a lloid and jump over their opponent with a down air punish.

 

[Darklink401]

Having your moves reflected is an advantage in some situations because of pocket. If you can pocket a tree or bowling ball someone has reflected back at you, it becomes an instakill. Also, most good villagers will bait the reflect with a lloid and jump over their opponent with a down air punish.

Keep in mind that a pocketed tree CAN be reflected as well, so it becomes a VERY risky battle, and Id rather not take part in that.

Also the lloid bait is very obvious against reflectors, but as mentioned, if they aren't stupid, they WILL bait out your feint, and punish your aerial attack.


I absolutely dislike fighting Zelda and Falco with Villager.

 

[zeezee]

I completely agree on the whole "Sheik" thing, she's definitely a great character to pocket if you main Villager.

Also rather than disencouraging furthering Villager's gameplay, I think that it has to be said.

If you want to win tournaments with Villager, be prepared to have a character in your pocket to cover Villager's bad MUs.

That being said

Villager is a great counterpick character to have. I've even thought of making him my second main, next to Sheik, but alas, I do better with Villager, even though I'm great with Sheik. Not really planning to switch him out at all.

Again, I'm not trying to discourage any players from using villagers, but yeah...if your aim is to win, carry a counter-pick for his bad match-ups or make HIM the counter-pick.

My point on Villager vs reflectors is that reflectors are laggy enough to punish and if you make the read then you DO have a scenario where Villager HAS an advantage it is small, a good player will rarely fall for it, and a good portion of the time it makes traps more difficult, but it does exist as a scenario.

A pocketed Tree is more of intimidation. Like you can't play too crazy without getting smacked by a tree.

Anyways I really do believe that Villager is better as a counter pick character. If that's what viability means then I would drop a bunch of characters from Player 1's list.

I should use more F-smash more often.

I wasn't trying to out-rule that possible situation, I addressed it earlier, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I guess the confusion came from me saying "I cannot believe somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit." What I meant from that post was that speaking in the general sense, your opponent having a reflector does NOT benefit Villager in any way because its simply a lose-lose situation for your opponent to even have that option available. What you are describing is a simple punish, your opponent carelessly used a move incorrectly or like you said, you read that he would. My point was that there exists no character in the game that benefits from their opponent having more options, however bad an option it may be (unless its the unlikely scenario where there is some sort of problem that causes them to be forced to use that move but that is very unlikely). The reflector in this case is an extra option your opponent has to deal with your options, and a really damn good one at that. Just because it is possible that you can read that your opponent will use a certain option and punish it, does not increase your characters potential.

Here's a hypothetical scenario - In the Sonic vs Villager matchup, sonic gains a new option versus Villager that he cannot use on Falco. Sonic obtains the ability to use another different type of bair that kills faster, but is slower and laggier.

Now I will reword your statement with the hypothetical scenario - My point on Villager vs Sonic's second Bair is that the Bair is laggy enough to punish and if you make the read then you DO have a scenario where Villager HAS an advantage it is small, a good player will rarely be hit by it, and a good portion of the time it makes getting back on stage more difficult, but it does exist as a scenario.

While your statement is true, the point I was trying to make is also true that just Sonic having that extra option available for me (and not for some certain other characters) is not to my advantage in any conceivable way. Its a lose-lose situation, you never want your opponent to have more options against you however useless they may be. If the option is a bad option all they have to do is to not ever use that option. Similarly having more options against your opponent is not always to your benefit, but it will never be bad for you, yet it can potentially be to your benefit, but having the ability to limit your opponents options is ALWAYS a win-win situation for you. I hope you can sort of see where the confusion in our arguments came from now and that its clearer to see my point.

Having your moves reflected is an advantage in some situations because of pocket. If you can pocket a tree or bowling ball someone has reflected back at you, it becomes an instakill. Also, most good villagers will bait the reflect with a lloid and jump over their opponent with a down air punish.

See the above statement, I'm not saying that this is not true...but again, you generally still don't want to do that imo because the pocketed projectile can just as easily be reflected and 0HKO you.

And yes I know you can do that, I mentioned it earlier.


At the end of the day though, now that evo is allowing customs, it is very very likely that almost all smash 4 tournaments from now on will allow custom moves. In this case, my earlier statement about villagers viability does not apply at the moment because I don't have a good grasp of custom Villager's full potential, but I do know that he is MUCH better than normal Villager. Rejoice in celebration fellow Villagers!

Just...watch out for custom Mega Mans...;-;

 

[Darklink401]

@ zeezee It's my understanding that Villager's trip sapling is super good. Alongside that, he has his flower pocket that I THINK can be useful, and the balloon jump, while definitely not as high as his normal recovery, IS still REALLY good AND fast.

I need to experiment further.


And like I said, Zee, if anything, while that might discourage some, since you're considered one of the best Villagers....I mean

it{s the same situation as Armada and Peach.

He moved Peach to a coutnerpick.

We need to have a secondary character to cover Villager, its just smart to do so xD

 

[captain clutch]

Custom Villager is amazing. I would say it would move him up significantly, but many characters will be moved around, make the custom tier list look different from the vanilla one. With that being said, I can say from experience that custom Villager does a whole lot better against Sonic and Little Mac, among other characters.

 

[Wyles]

At the end of the day though, now that evo is allowing customs, it is very very likely that almost all smash 4 tournaments from now on will allow custom moves. In this case, my earlier statement about villagers viability does not apply at the moment because I don't have a good grasp of custom Villager's full potential, but I do know that he is MUCH better than normal Villager. Rejoice in celebration fellow Villagers!

Villager's Counter Timber will definitely help with the matchups no? Counter Timber can help with Sanic and people with good ground games like Mac. Especially when near the edge where they cant really "wait" there safely. It can bait rolls towards you and jumps. Pushy Lloid can help with jumpy characters too. But really all you need is Timber Counter. pls nerf.

 

[Antonykun]

Just...watch out for custom Mega Mans...;-;

Zee..I wanted to sleep tonight...
(If customs megaman isn't a good argument for a bad matchups then nothing is :/)

 

[Darklink401]

Zee..I wanted to sleep tonight...
(If customs megaman isn't a good argument for a bad matchups then nothing is :/)

What's so bad about custom megaman?

 

[Wyles]

What's so bad about custom megaman?

He becomes a lot better. A lot.

 

[zeezee]

What's so bad about custom megaman?

He was already problematic for villager with his projectiles having high priority, but now he has a reflector he can move with...wait for it...that he can grab out of or throw at you to hit you with.

A Villager's living nightmare.

 

[Darklink401]

He was already problematic for villager with his projectiles having high priority, but now he has a reflector he can move with...wait for it...that he can grab out of or throw at you to hit you with.

A Villager's living nightmare.

This does not sound fair.

 

[zeezee]

He was already problematic for villager with his projectiles shutting down your options, but now he has a reflector he can move with...wait for it...that he can grab out of or throw at you to hit you with.

A Villager's living nightmare.

EDIT: oops double posted, how do delete my posts?

 

[Darklink401]

EDIT: oops double posted, how do delete my posts?

You don't, that's the beauty of it.

 

[Kofu]

He was already problematic for villager with his projectiles having high priority, but now he has a reflector he can move with...wait for it...that he can grab out of or throw at you to hit you with.

A Villager's living nightmare.

A Mega Main's description of Skull Barrier is that it's a temporary Franklin Badge. It lasts the shortest of his down-bs though.

I personally think that Villager is still very solid barring a few MUs.

 

[captain clutch]

Skull barrier is good, but not as good as it sounds. Emphasis on the short duration of the move. And when he shoots it at you, it does 2% with minimal knock back. It really is like a 4 second Franklin badge. Any reflector can be problematic for villager though.
Megaman's bubble bomb thing (Danger Wrap?) side be could limit Villager's aerial approach.