I feel like this could be the most "accessible" game in the series

[Quillion]

Considering Sakurai's obsession with making skilled players and casual players have a small gap between each other, I'm surprised he didn't just go back to basics and make the games after Melee more like this one.

Speaking from my time first playing Melee as a kid, I NEVER used stuff like rolling, shielding, and airdodging in actual matches (I only used them against Master Hand), and I'm not so sure most casual players (especially those who never own the game and just play with friends) will make proper use of them either (just my opinion, BTW).

But either way, why couldn't they just remove air dodging and increase the hitstun instead of doing the opposite (plus lowering shieldstun)? I know casual fans are pretty much receptive to anything, but wouldn't they have been more receptive to this instead?

 

[Combo Blaze]

casuals would cry that they get 0 to death'd by everything, even if it took some effort compared to the falcon standard and kirby uptilt.

 

[Kahnu]

all of my friends say its basically streetfighter with all the combos and has no depth as a smash game

**** melee

 

[Shears]

Considering Sakurai's obsession with making skilled players and casual players have a small gap between each other, I'm surprised he didn't just go back to basics and make the games after Melee more like this one.

Speaking from my time first playing Melee as a kid, I NEVER used stuff like rolling, shielding, and airdodging in actual matches (I only used them against Master Hand), and I'm not so sure most casual players (especially those who never own the game and just play with friends) will make proper use of them either (just my opinion, BTW).

But either way, why couldn't they just remove air dodging and increase the hitstun instead of doing the opposite (plus lowering shieldstun)? I know casual fans are pretty much receptive to anything, but wouldn't they have been more receptive to this instead?

Because melee isn't combo heavy like 64 and has a plethora of options to escape anything, casuals will find the game more welcoming because even against someone like M2K, they will probably do damage and get a hit, and when they lose a stock it was with multiple sequences of combos and approaches. 64 is very discouraging to casuals because when playing against higher level players the game feels hopeless. They can't do damage, they can't escape anything. Within 5 sequences they lost 5 stocks. What they did by adding airdodging and lowering hit/shield stun closes the gap between casuals and pros instead of separating them. Certainly melee has more tech to learn which can be difficult and overwhelming to a casual, but with the help of button mashing they can see some kind of reward even though they lose horribly. Button mashing in 64 is useless because you aren't escaping a combo if you don't know exactly what to do.

 

[Annex]

I would also argue that lower hitstun + shieldstun makes it more welcoming to a casual player because then the game relies more heavily on spacing and reads (which can be learned passively) than it is on combos (which usually require learning them actively or testing in training mode, both of which casual players wont be doing)

I'm not sure if you've played against a 64 player anyone here has ever heard of but if you haven't you should try it. I guarantee it will be less welcoming than getting a 2 hit combo in Smash 4 and then reverting back to neutral (giving you another chance) until someone dies. In 64 you get maybe 4 chances tops each stock

 

[Quillion]

I played at a charity tournament once, and my struggles were with the amount of crap that was put into later games that isn't in this one (no charged smashes, no airdodges). A completely informal tournament run by TheRunawayGuys even had Chuggaaconroy struggling to adapt to Smash 64.

But I've been thinking about this topic, and I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos.

Okay. Z-canceling. But still.

 

[Studstill]

Yeah so I don`t know how to say this any simpler:
You have no rights to be good at Smash 64. Melee is a different game, for a different engine, on a different system.
There is no series, as far as 64 is concerned.
Man, I always feel like an asshole saying this:
Why does anything a Melee says about 64 sound like a backhanded insult paired with a disbelief in the linear flow of time?

 

[Kahnu]

I played at a charity tournament once, and my struggles were with the amount of crap that was put into later games that isn't in this one (no charged smashes, no airdodges). A completely informal tournament run by TheRunawayGuys even had Chuggaaconroy struggling to adapt to Smash 64.

But I've been thinking about this topic, and I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos.

Okay. Z-canceling. But still.

What about the way you need to DI to escape the ''combos'' that you guys hate so much?
Like Falcons up-air?
What about DJCing, Shine cancelling, good smash DI, etc.
???

 

[Shears]

I played at a charity tournament once, and my struggles were with the amount of crap that was put into later games that isn't in this one (no charged smashes, no airdodges). A completely informal tournament run by TheRunawayGuys even had Chuggaaconroy struggling to adapt to Smash 64.

But I've been thinking about this topic, and I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos.

Okay. Z-canceling. But still.

There is a lot of tech with 64 that isn't in melee or the other games, but I generally agree with you, the learning curve is not disjointed. The game becomes less of a technical button masher and more of a pure cerebral game, which is something I prefer. I often feel 64 is to melee as boxing is to mma. They are different sports each with a different focus. Just because mma has more attack and defense options doesn't mean its a better sport, same with melee. If you don't really understand boxing or mma (very few people actually do nowadays), then ignore the reference.

 

[shapular]

The game becomes less of a technical button masher and more of a pure cerebral game

Just a heads up, you can't say "cerebral game" without Melee players making fun of you.

 

[Shears]

Just a heads up, you can't say "cerebral game" without Melee players making fun of you.

I don't get it? I also don't care what a bunch of basement virgin melee fanboys think.

"I'm like a super genius because I can wavedash. OMG did you just see mew2king wavedash?!?! Hes like so cool and smart. HYPE!!!" - Every melee kid ever.

 

[Kahnu]

I don't get it? I also don't care what a bunch of basement virgin melee fanboys think.

"I'm like a super genius because I can wavedash. OMG did you just see mew2king wavedash?!?! Hes like so cool and smart. HYPE!!!" - Every melee kid ever.

woah new undisvcovered tech! u gotta do it on frame 1 of shield holy **** what the **** i love techs this game has so much depth holy ****

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

 

[Annex]

Are you trying to convince 64 players to stop playing 64 by saying that it feels bad to you
Like, what is the function of your post, and is your account ironic or double ironic
I cannot tell

 

[Shears]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

You must prefer mma over boxing.

 

[Kahnu]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

first of all you dont even play smash 64
what gives you the right to act like you know it and understand it
and if you dont like it get out, trash
:spit:

 

[Fireblaster]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

Sluggish in what way?

• Zcancelling takes away all frames of lag as opposed to leaving you with half the frames of lag in melee and the full lag in games after that, meaning attacks actually recover the fastest in 64.
• Dashing pretty much works the same, except that when you **** up a dashdance in another smash game you get stuck in an even longer turn around animation then 64. I guess melee has dash cancelling but I seriously doubt that's what you had in mind when you made this post.
• Pivoting is not only much easier in 64, most pivots are actually better in 64 and are more useful.
• If you get pushed off a ledge in 64 while shielding, you just enter a normal aerial state. If you get pushed off a ledge in any other smash game while shielding and facing away from the ledge, you ****ing TRIP off the ledge and for 27 frames you can't do anything, not even tech when you land on the ground. Yeah 64 is totally sluggish there.
• Shield Dropping. Super easy and fundamental to pull off in 64. Super not-easy to pull off in other smash games. I seriously even doubt that you're capable of pulling this off in whatever other smash game you play. Hell, I'm willing to bet you didn't know what this was.
• Other smash games have a magic yellow macro stick that only really worked properly in ONE game (melee).

On a bad day, I would have written off your post as a troll post and just reported it to the mods. However, I'm feeling good today so that's why I bothered to dignify your awful post with a response. You probably have not played more than a consecutive 15 minutes of ssb64 within the past... I'm gonna say 10 years. You touched the game for a little bit, sucked at the movement and in general because it's not a game you were used to, then promptly made the conclusion that the game is slow/archaic/didn't age well/clunky/etc. Seeing as how you probably don't play 64 and don't plan on playing 64 ever, I'm going to give you some advice. Don't post in these boards ever again unless you want to have everyone take your putrid ignorance and blow you the **** up with it every time you make a stupid ass post in here.

 

[Phislamajama]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

Well, you know, thats just like uhh..your opinion, man

 

[Kahnu]

Sluggish in what way?

• Zcancelling takes away all frames of lag as opposed to leaving you with half the frames of lag in melee and the full lag in games after that, meaning attacks actually recover the fastest in 64.
• Dashing pretty much works the same, except that when you **** up a dashdance in another smash game you get stuck in an even longer turn around animation then 64. I guess melee has dash cancelling but I seriously doubt that's what you had in mind when you made this post.
• Pivoting is not only much easier in 64, most pivots are actually better in 64 and are more useful.
• If you get pushed off a ledge in 64 while shielding, you just enter a normal aerial state. If you get pushed off a ledge in any other smash game while shielding and facing away from the ledge, you ****ing TRIP off the ledge and for 27 frames you can't do anything, not even tech when you land on the ground. Yeah 64 is totally sluggish there.
• Shield Dropping. Super easy and fundamental to pull off in 64. Super not-easy to pull off in other smash games. I seriously even doubt that you're capable of pulling this off in whatever other smash game you play. Hell, I'm willing to bet you didn't know what this was.
• Other smash games have a magic yellow macro stick that only really worked properly in ONE game (melee).

On a bad day, I would have written off your post as a troll post and just reported it to the mods. However, I'm feeling good today so that's why I bothered to dignify your awful post with a response. You probably have not played more than a consecutive 15 minutes of ssb64 within the past... I'm gonna say 10 years. You touched the game for a little bit, sucked at the movement and in general because it's not a game you were used to, then promptly made the conclusion that the game is slow/archaic/didn't age well/clunky/etc. Seeing as how you probably don't play 64 and don't plan on playing 64 ever, I'm going to give you some advice. Don't post in these boards ever again unless you want to have everyone take your putrid ignorance and blow you the **** up with it every time you make a stupid *** post in here.

Couldn't have said it better myself, based Fireblaster.

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

Is there really that much hate between the 64 and Melee communities? I love both games and over here in Australia I've never really heard anyone hate on 64...

 

[Kahnu]

Is there really that much hate between the 64 and Melee communities? I love both games and over here in Australia I've never really heard anyone hate on 64...

There is no hate, just ignorant Melee players who don't know what the **** they are talking about, so they are called out on it.

 

[Phislamajama]

Is there really that much hate between the 64 and Melee communities? I love both games and over here in Australia I've never really heard anyone hate on 64...

It stems mostly from misconceptions they have, then coming in and spouting off like this clown did

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

There is no hate, just ignorant Melee players who don't know what the **** they are talking about, so they are called out on it.

Yeah, that makes sense. The Melee community being as big as it is means that there are a hell of a lot of ignorant players

 

[Quillion]

Yeah so I don`t know how to say this any simpler:
You have no rights to be good at Smash 64. Melee is a different game, for a different engine, on a different system.
There is no series, as far as 64 is concerned.
Man, I always feel like an ******* saying this:
Why does anything a Melee says about 64 sound like a backhanded insult paired with a disbelief in the linear flow of time?

If it makes you feel any better, my opinion about the Smash fandom as a whole (all sections) is about as low as that of the Sonic fandom (and this thread does not do any favors).

But anyway, I'm definitely willing to put in the time to playing the original Smash just as much as I'm willing to put in the time to learning wavedashing and even learning how to hoo-hah properly in Smash U. "No rights" is a bit of a stretch there.

 

[Madao]

If it makes you feel any better, my opinion about the Smash fandom as a whole (all sections) is about as low as that of the Sonic fandom (and this thread does not do any favors).

But anyway, I'm definitely willing to put in the time to playing the original Smash just as much as I'm willing to put in the time to learning wavedashing and even learning how to hoo-hah properly in Smash U. "No rights" is a bit of a stretch there.

Don't mind him. Sometimes he has a bad day and does this.

Yeah so I don`t know how to say this any simpler:
You have no rights to be good at Smash 64. Melee is a different game, for a different engine, on a different system.
There is no series, as far as 64 is concerned.
Man, I always feel like an ******* saying this:
Why does anything a Melee says about 64 sound like a backhanded insult paired with a disbelief in the linear flow of time?

I think you misunderstood the OP's post. It was not a backhanded insult. I actually agree with some of the things said. I definitely agree with Sheers' example of boxing vs mma.

 

[Studstill]

agree with Shears.

There is no hate, just players who don't know what the **** they are talking about, so they are called out on it.

Oh holy **** I`m not reading that.

Yo man, your face is archaic. I don`t know what to tell you.
If you come into anywhere and start **** talking the thing that everyone is there for, then man, you`re going to get told to **** off.
#Life? Idk.

@ Fireblaster
We beef, Brother, all too often. I thank you eternally for being the first barrier against the seemingly unending flow of this type of idiotic gibberish.

Are you trying to convince 64 players to stop playing 64 by saying that it feels bad to you
Like, what is the function of your post, and is your account ironic or double ironic
I cannot tell

Double Post because Hey @ Madao if someone like Annex throws this out there, it`s pretty much a clue to lock it and save us all the trouble.

 

[Madao]

@ S Studstill I want you to tell me what's wrong with the statements below?

I played at a charity tournament once, and my struggles were with the amount of crap that was put into later games that isn't in this one (no charged smashes, no airdodges).

I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos.

It's almost as if comparisons to other Smash games is unacceptable. Hate to break it to you, but I don't find anything wrong with the stuff I quoted. Keep in mind, opinions != fact.

@ S Studstill , why not just edit post? You can see I'm already in the thread ;/ .

 

[Kahnu]

If it makes you feel any better, my opinion about the Smash fandom as a whole (all sections) is about as low as that of the Sonic fandom (and this thread does not do any favors).

But anyway, I'm definitely willing to put in the time to playing the original Smash just as much as I'm willing to put in the time to learning wavedashing and even learning how to hoo-hah properly in Smash U. "No rights" is a bit of a stretch there.

To play all the games is to be bad at all of them.

 

[Studstill]

Just a heads up, you can't say "cerebral game" without Melee players making fun of you.

Because "cerebral" isn`t in their limited vocabularies?

 

[Kahnu]

Because "cerebral" isn`t in their limited vocabularies?

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST **** I'VE HEARD ALL DAY, LITERALLY SPIT MY WATER ONTO MY MONITOR

 

[Studstill]

@ S Studstill I want you to tell me what's wrong with the statements below?

Quote 1:

"I played at a charity tournament once, and my struggles were with the amount of crap that was put into later games that isn't in this one (no charged smashes, no airdodges)."

No problem, as long as it is read as:
There is a lot of crap in Melee, Brawl, and 4.

Quote 2:

"I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos."

Because the word technique implies that this stuff is good or betters the game even though as he stated in Quote 1, this stuff, these 'techniques' are just unnecessary and clunky crap.

Dash dancing is not a technique. It`s moving back and forth. You people try to jazz this **** up so much its maddening. Hitting buttons becomes "tech skill". Hitting B twice in a shortened jump is a "technique". This stuff isn`t difficult.

That`s what Shears is saying, I don`t know it`s like you all think you are junior Olympians for playing certain video games or something.
You`re just hitting buttons. The value of games is how fun they are and how they allow you to express yourself.
The idea that they are physically demanding or that one human`s hands operate differently from any other given human is ridiculous.
Madao, please try to have a problem with that statement.

It's almost as if comparisons to other Smash games is unacceptable

Yes. They are fundamentally different games on different systems and with different engines. It is not my fault the majority of people in control of shaping SSB64 over the years have tried to make it more like Melee. This was a mistake that blurs both your perception and the hard line between the games.

 

[Kahnu]

i agree more or less with agree with stud, your in the ****ing 64 section, why talk about other games when that has nothing to do with 64?

 

[Madao]

Quote 2:

"I think that what I think (sorry...) is that the learning curve is relatively less disjointed compared to most other games. Seems to be a lot less techniques to learn, and even those that do exist are the simpler common-sense ones like dashdancing, allowing you to focus entirely on making combos."

Because the word technique implies that this stuff is good or betters the game even though as he stated in Quote 1, this stuff, these 'techniques' are just unnecessary and clunky crap.

Dash dancing is not a technique. It`s moving back and forth. You people try to jazz this **** up so much its maddening. Hitting buttons becomes "tech skill". Hitting B twice in a shortened jump is a "technique". This stuff isn`t difficult.

You need to understand that people use words differently than you do. What is your definition for "tech skill" and "technique"? I bet it's different than what the OP had in mind. I think it is best to question others, when you don't understand them.

Techniques don't necessarily imply it's good. Z Cancelling is a technique, yet a lot of people in our community are against it.

You`re just hitting buttons. The value of games is how fun they are and how they allow you to express yourself.
The idea that they are physically demanding or that one human`s hands operate differently from any other given human is ridiculous.
Madao, please try to have a problem with that statement.

Yes. They are fundamentally different games on different systems and with different engines. It is not my fault the majority of people in control of shaping SSB64 over the years have tried to make it more like Melee. This was a mistake that blurs both your perception and the hard line between the games.

In my honest opinion, I think you are over simplifying it, when you say "you're just hitting buttons".

It is true they are different games, but it's not like they scrapped the source code each time. When I looked at the game code, I was intruiged with some of the similarities in the newer games. Regardless of how similar or different they are, there is nothing wrong with a comparison.

 

[Kahnu]

madao, who the **** is against z cancelling

 

[Quillion]

The thing is that Smash 64 is incredibly archaic in a number of ways, to the point where it's not exactly the most stellar game anymore even taking nostalgia into account; playing the game as a little kid was cool, playing it now....it's sluggish, stiff and feels unnatural compared to later entries in the series which refined the formula immensely.

It was awesome back then, but now it's just so stiff in comparison to the more free-flowing combat of later games that it renders the game obsolete in a competetive sense. It was good as a base for later games to refine, but as it's own game it hasn't aged terribly well at all.

To be fair, at least, I'd play Smash 64 over most of the fanmade Smash games.

Slow =/= stiff. Try to imagine Melee with Smash 64 speed. Less depth and freedom to move? Nope.

But Jesus, man. Is "accessible" really that big of an insult to everyone now?

madao, who the **** is against z cancelling

Just letting you know, a lot of people just want less landing lag instead of L or Z cancelling. I know I do, along with my idea for a wavedash-like dash button that I specifically hypothesized to please no one.

 

[Kahnu]

Slow =/= stiff. Try to imagine Melee with Smash 64 speed. Less depth and freedom to move? Nope.

But Jesus, man. Is "accessible" really that big of an insult to everyone now?



Just letting you know, a lot of people just want less landing lag instead of L or Z cancelling. I know I do, along with my idea for a wavedash-like dash button that I specifically hypothesized to please no one.

Pro Tip: If you don't know what your talking about, shut up please. You also cant read either, lmao keyword "AGaINST" z canceling, meaning "against reducing frames to an aerial on the landing lag".

 

[Quillion]

Pro Tip: If you don't know what your talking about, shut up please. You also cant read either, lmao keyword "AGaINST" z canceling, meaning "against reducing frames to an aerial on the landing lag".

Do you really not see the difference between pressing a button to reduce landing lag and just reducing landing lag from the get-go?

I see that argument a lot on the PM boards.

 

[Madao]

Pro Tip: If you don't know what your talking about, shut up please. You also cant read either, lmao keyword "AGaINST" z canceling, meaning "against reducing frames to an aerial on the landing lag".

When I say against Z Cancelling, I mean requiring the button press. It's what it's commonly referred as.

 

[Combo Blaze]

kahnu pls

We've had a discussion before about Z canceling and whether it was a necessary tech to keep. I think people were split.

 

[pidgezero_one]

To play all the games is to be bad at all of them.

that's called a john