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I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

robosteven

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Most of the changes and nerfs can be boiled down to the removal of burst movement options and "get out of jail free" tools, which made it really annoying and unenjoyable to play against a lot of characters, even the 3.0 "low tiers".
I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this patch is that G&W's up-b was basically untouched in this regard, and I'm pretty sure Sonic's is the same too. I know with Sonic you can't do aerials as shortly out of up-b anymore, but still.

I'm probably wrong, but it just feels wrong to me that it's a problem that some characters kept their get-out-of-jail-free card, but others got it taken away.

...or I'm just hella salty towards G&W.

edit: also Olimar's recovery is still the dumbest mechanic in the game and I will fight you over this
 
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Scuba Steve

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I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this patch is that G&W's up-b was basically untouched in this regard, and I'm pretty sure Sonic's is the same too. I know with Sonic you can't do aerials as shortly out of up-b anymore, but still.

I'm probably wrong, but it just feels wrong to me that it's a problem that some characters kept their get-out-of-jail-free card, but others got it taken away.

...or I'm just hella salty towards G&W.

edit: also Olimar's recovery is still the dumbest mechanic in the game and I will fight you over this
Sonic's up-b now comes out on frame 7 instead of frame 3. As for GnW, I don't think it's been changed much besides not being able to airdodge after his up-b now, which is unfortunate because that was one of my few gripes with the character.
 

Empyrean

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I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this patch is that G&W's up-b was basically untouched in this regard, and I'm pretty sure Sonic's is the same too. I know with Sonic you can't do aerials as shortly out of up-b anymore, but still.

I'm probably wrong, but it just feels wrong to me that it's a problem that some characters kept their get-out-of-jail-free card, but others got it taken away.

...or I'm just hella salty towards G&W.

edit: also Olimar's recovery is still the dumbest mechanic in the game and I will fight you over this
I can't speak for sonic, but g&w keeping the same up-b is rather peculiar, and I don't know what the thought process behind this decision was. Perhaps a PMDT could explain.
 

Fortress

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It is needed to take into account the opponents point of view along with the user's. I'm sure that after the sadness of the nerfs to your character, after playing for some more time, you'll see that you're having more fun and getting way less frustrated as nerfs to other characters allow you to do more and feel less fear of taking action.

It's more important and fun in the long run to have a more interactive experience, a neutral game much closer to be actually neutral, than an incredibly useful move, amazing recovery or 100% guaranteed combo. Not only it makes the fights more interesting but also contributes to a deeper metagame and better balance between risk and reward.
Hit the nail right on the head. I'm having to play a much smarter Link to succeed now, rather than just spam zAir and uTilt until I win, which is great. Setting up the Helm Splitter is also harder, which makes my 100% success option something I need to think about.

On top of everything, 3.5 actually made Pit a fun matchup for me to play against, when in 3.0 I reviled him as the worst joke that the PMDT could've come up with. Now, when I see Pit get dThrow off three times in a row against me, I know it's not because it was guaranteed, but rather my DI was poor and it was on me, not the character. Which is the general feel of 3.5. Janky things that happen in 3.5 are more-or-less on you for letting them happen, and less on your opponent just hitting some buttons ala 3.0. I actually have fun seeing our Pit get a 60% combo off on me now since it actually looks impressive.
 

Anonistry

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One design philosophy that I've noticed in Dota, is that until you can think of a way to make a character tournament-valid, there is a certain amount of sense in hindering their ability to be a nuisance in low-level play, as such changes are unlikely to affect tournament play anyway.

That said, I, too, was disappointed in the number of nerfs. But it's also too soon to really make a call, we'll have to give it more time to see what was really a nerf and what wasn't.
Its... different with MOBAs. They can get away with an outright different balance paradigm due to the difference in commitment between, say, Smash or a fighter and Lol or DotA. In one of those, a character has all of 4-5 abilities (depending on passives and/or flat bonuses purchase options.) They fill one role of 5, and that role can be fulfilled by others in a way that, although certain character quirks may make them desirable over another option, skills are imminently transferable in most cases within the same category. In short, there is someone else out there for you to do your job, and it is not just you doing it.

In a fighter, however, the commitment it usually takes to become an effective character specialist is such that any attempts to nerf a character, even if they are blatantly OP or already too competitively unviable to matter, has a much more pronounced effect due to the "devaluation" of your time investment. I mean, think of how the word "ban" is treated in the FGC. No seriously, if you don't know, see if you can find an instance of it. They HATE the thought of banning. I mean, it takes ST Akuma levels of broken to be banworthy, and it only gets worse if stuff is being discovered after player dedication has set in. Hell, in Blazblue, the character Kokonoe was brazenly broken on release and everyone knew it, and they STILL were only "considering" banning, despite how damn centralizing of the meta she was quickly becoming. You literally, depending on your character, NEEDED a pocket JUST for her. In fact, it is only -because- it would have that same effect on other character specialists that it was considered at all.

So... yeah, remember that character choice is quite a bit more meaningful on an individual level in fighting games, and so the logic MOBAs can use sometimes needs to be filtered through that. An attack damage carry is an AD carry, a Ganondorf is... Ganondorf. He may share some traits with others, like hitting hard, but there is no honest substitute for his character in the aggregate.
 

Beorn

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I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this patch is that G&W's up-b was basically untouched in this regard, and I'm pretty sure Sonic's is the same too. I know with Sonic you can't do aerials as shortly out of up-b anymore, but still.

I'm probably wrong, but it just feels wrong to me that it's a problem that some characters kept their get-out-of-jail-free card, but others got it taken away.

...or I'm just hella salty towards G&W.

edit: also Olimar's recovery is still the dumbest mechanic in the game and I will fight you over this

Agreed. G&W's up-b jump is one of the only pieces of jank left in this game now.
 

Raijinken

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Its... different with MOBAs. They can get away with an outright different balance paradigm due to the difference in commitment between, say, Smash or a fighter and Lol or DotA. In one of those, a character has all of 4-5 abilities (depending on passives and/or flat bonuses purchase options.) They fill one role of 5, and that role can be fulfilled by others in a way that, although certain character quirks may make them desirable over another option, skills are imminently transferable in most cases within the same category. In short, there is someone else out there for you to do your job, and it is not just you doing it.

In a fighter, however, the commitment it usually takes to become an effective character specialist is such that any attempts to nerf a character, even if they are blatantly OP or already too competitively unviable to matter, has a much more pronounced effect due to the "devaluation" of your time investment. I mean, think of how the word "ban" is treated in the FGC. No seriously, if you don't know, see if you can find an instance of it. They HATE the thought of banning. I mean, it takes ST Akuma levels of broken to be banworthy, and it only gets worse if stuff is being discovered after player dedication has set in. Hell, in Blazblue, the character Kokonoe was brazenly broken on release and everyone knew it, and they STILL were only "considering" banning, despite how damn centralizing of the meta she was quickly becoming. You literally, depending on your character, NEEDED a pocket JUST for her. In fact, it is only -because- it would have that same effect on other character specialists that it was considered at all.

So... yeah, remember that character choice is quite a bit more meaningful on an individual level in fighting games, and so the logic MOBAs can use sometimes needs to be filtered through that. An attack damage carry is an AD carry, a Ganondorf is... Ganondorf. He may share some traits with others, like hitting hard, but there is no honest substitute for his character in the aggregate.
I agree, that's very accurate.

I guess part of my stance on balance is that the two main approaches (nerf the best or buff the worst) are easily overdone. At least glancing at Xanadu since 3.5, the character preference has shifted back to the same ol' Melee characters, since the top few from 3.02 got rather destroyed, from a strength standpoint, while the Melees are, with few exceptions, virtually identical to their Melee states. Meanwhile, even the bottom picks were largely unchanged or nerfed (at least to all appearances, though unlike, say, Dota, it's harder to tell if a damage/knockback/angle decrease is truly a nerf when it can open new combo options), which feels very counter-balance to me.
 
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MLGF

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Yes, let's assume that the Melee characters will continue to win forever in a two week old Meta.
"Flawless Logic, 11/10 ~IGN"
 

Anonistry

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It very well might, who knows.

More important is what I said in the previous post. Even if, by taking all the cast down a notch, it leaves MELEE on top, that doesn't have to last past 3.5. The devs made a judgment call, and that was that too much power creep and jank was being used to get "All top tier." This way, if MELEE does stay top tier in 3.5, they hopefully can devise a better approach than "what if EVERYONE was cheap?" I mean, dis ain't mahvel, babee.:psycho:
 

JOE!

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The way Ive been looking at it is that my Character has actually been buffed via everyone else getting worse
 

JOE!

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I've seen nearly half of character mains say this same exact thing.
Well because IMO it makes sense.

Look at it this way: Ness would be a terror for Charizard due to the way his model/hurtboxes are arranged, making PK fire a total ***** to avoid. That MU is now substantially better as shielding can avoid PK fire now. MK not having the dive kick Dair allows me to juggle him without as much fear/without him ending it abruptly, and the Dthrow change just gets rid of the annoyance of the traps it makes lol.

Sure, my character was also changed in significant ways but nothing I cannot adapt to. However, the environment around me has also changed for the better which I find to be a buff overall.
 

Anonistry

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Well because IMO it makes sense.

Look at it this way: Ness would be a terror for Charizard due to the way his model/hurtboxes are arranged, making PK fire a total ***** to avoid. That MU is now substantially better as shielding can avoid PK fire now. MK not having the dive kick Dair allows me to juggle him without as much fear/without him ending it abruptly, and the Dthrow change just gets rid of the annoyance of the traps it makes lol.

Sure, my character was also changed in significant ways but nothing I cannot adapt to. However, the environment around me has also changed for the better which I find to be a buff overall.
Hell, it is very well possible that THEY feel the same way. Funny thing is, a 5-5 can still be different from a 5-5... for the actual participants in the match. It comes down to how "stupid" the balancing factors are. Imagine two characters have equally valid ways to Touch of Death each other. I mean... yeah, "balanced"... but more difficult at the same time. The more fair the balancing factors, and the more decision-making involved that doesn't seem like trying to get past an impossible issues to create an equally impossible to stop victory, then the more a player is probably going to feel it is a "buff" in the end, because they have more control over the flow and its less russian roulette.
 

MechWarriorNY

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All of this theory-**** is going to mean absolutely nothing in practice.

That's my prediction.
 

Yurya

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I highly applaud the PMDT for the design choice in balancing characters around a Peach/Falcon level. Characters were becoming so powerful that it became less about the players and more about the characters strengths and weaknesses. And since one of the points of P:M is balance they shouldn't be seeking polarizing match-ups. Now characters are limited so the players themselves can stand out.
 

NightKev

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Also remember, now you guys have debug mode, the ability to analyze everything frame by frame. If you find any big inconsistency that just doesn't fit that objective behind PM 3.5, don't hesistate to investigate further and bring the results to us, we want to hear you and that's part of why we wanted to bring the mode to 3.5 so much.
Well, if you insist. Let me get out my 300 page novel on the state of PM and...

In all seriousness, I don't have much problem with the 3.5 changes, not yet anyway (after all, it's much too soon to tell), but I am confused about one thing: why was MK's glide given a maximum length but not Pit's or Zard's? It seems, well, inconsistent I guess.
 

GabPR

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I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this patch is that G&W's up-b was basically untouched in this regard, and I'm pretty sure Sonic's is the same too. I know with Sonic you can't do aerials as shortly out of up-b anymore, but still.
Not only does sonic's Up-b comes out of frame 7 now instead of 3 like scuba steve said, but also down air fall speed was decreased, which on top of taking longer to react out of up b it leaves Sonic for a longer amount of time in the air, thus leaving him more vulnerable (considering his fast fall speed is also hella slow). All this said, up b is no longer as safe as a "get out of jail free" card anymore. Dem spring gimps though... :3.
 

robosteven

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Not only does sonic's Up-b comes out of frame 7 now instead of 3 like scuba steve said, but also down air fall speed was decreased, which on top of taking longer to react out of up b it leaves Sonic for a longer amount of time in the air, thus leaving him more vulnerable (considering his fast fall speed is also hella slow). All this said, up b is no longer as safe as a "get out of jail free" card anymore. Dem spring gimps though... :3.
I was hesitant to mention Sanic because I knew his up-b was actually changed, but it's pretty noticeable even as a casual Sanic player that you can't attack as quickly out of his up-b as you could in earlier builds.

All of my salt and confusion is toward G&W at this point.
 

Soft Serve

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Gnw has no good option to come down After an up b if it wasn't used in a combo. He has dair, but it's not a sonic dair and can just be avoided. When gnw up bs out of pressure, he puts himself above you and gives up stage control completely to get himself out of that situation. It's not like other panic buttons that have been in smash . It's good, and a 1 frame hitbox is pretty crazy, but the hitbox itself doesn't even cover gnw. If he is using it to get out of combos, just pressure his landing and juggle him. It's not free if you don't space poorly and get hit, he commits himself to being above you as a character with lacking air speed/mobility.
you have to respect it a bit in some situations, but it's really not that jank. Especially now thay he only gets one bucket stall, gnw can't up b> double jump bucket stall to wait out invincibility on respawn, which was his only real junk imo.

I'm looking at ZZS players complaining about having to change their playstyle, and then I'm looking at the diddy changes where it was pretty much all straight nerfs other than air banana hits. I agree with what mech was saying, git good and adapt. I now still think diddy is high tier, despite getting nerfed into the ground.

3.5 wasn't a nerf list, it was a re-balancing update. Yeah, a lot of characters lost silly tools, everyone has to play honest now and interact with the opponent, not throw out their habits and get success off thay because there's no real answer to them. I love all of the changes.
 
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Anonistry

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So... if the goal is to get everyone around an "honest" middle ground, is there any character who you would think is there yet?
 

WinterShorts

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I don't get why nerfing characters. Why not just make everyone OP as ****?
It would be fun, and that way you wouldn't have to worry about picking a bad character.
But hey, that's just me. I just play smash for fun and am not a competitive player so what I think is probably not important for the development team.
So what you're saying is make Project M, *ahem*, "Project M Minus Max 3.5"?
I don't quite like the idea of introducing counters to certain characters to make those characters worse.
It should be the aim to balance in a way that your matchups are playable (of course there will be better and worse ones, but avoiding clear counters) instead of creating winning and losing matchups for everyone.

In a extreme, oversimplified case, where the result of the game is only dependant on both players' character choice, where are things like a fair battle, creativity in Smash etc.

Give players' characters counter-options or reduce the counters' options, but don't give the players counter-characters.
I hope this post fixes the Ness vs. Bowser matchup.

Where was I? Oh yeah, I do agree with you're post. While I definitley wanted Lucas to be nerfed badly, he got nerfed to the point where only like 2 people use him in the Wifi Friend Code List.

Also, you mean to tell me that characters that were weak before got nerfed? Yoshi needed all the buffs i order to be played, and he got NERFED?

IDK maybe they're nerfing everyone to make it more rewarding to win with a nerfed character? It certainly feels that way with Mewtwo with his now closer resemblence towards his Melee counterpart. But, that reason's probably going to be argued out the window. I totally agree with @ DraconisMarch DraconisMarch now that he made good points.
 

GabPR

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People that complain that x or y character got nerfed and is unplayable are still living in 3.0. It is understandable for a player to mostly focus on the changes done to his or her character, but to deem them as unplayable without even looking at the patch notes or other characters as a whole is misleading.

Take for example 3.5 Sonic, my main. My first thought when I saw the notes was "well, im screwed" and when I was playing against players with characters like sheik or samus that I regurarly beat then I lost a lot the first few days, but mostly because I was still playing like 3.0 Sonic.

In a week or so I learned the new Sonic and I adapted to his new playstyle, and let me say I enjoy him more than ever since not only is he still a good character, but my friends also enjoyed playing against Sonic now, even though I started to beat them again. The added reward of managing to pull off risky blast attack combos off stage is comparable to landing a wolf side b as well.

So before anyone says anything, take the time to actually KNOW your character, once you do, you might actually appreciate your character more and have more fun due to less gimmicks (and your opponents as well)
 

Blank Mauser

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I feel like enough characters conveniently missed the nerf bat for me to dislike 3.5.

Its just a less fun game while at the same time not yet having the balance, simply a shift in power. I'll still support a lot of the design philosophy that went into 3.5, just not all of the execution.
 

GabPR

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I feel like enough characters conveniently missed the nerf bat for me to dislike 3.5.

Its just a less fun game while at the same time not yet having the balance, simply a shift in power. I'll still support a lot of the design philosophy that went into 3.5, just not all of the execution.
I of course believe there is no such thing as true balance and there will always be favorable and unfavorable match ups among a cast of 41 characters with mostly different playstyles, strengths and weaknesses. And with the huge changes I also feel there will be a shift in power, but what we have to ask ourselves is if this "shift" will be as drastic and polarizing as previous versions. Now when you say you feel the game to be "less" fun, what was it that 3.0 had that was more fun for you that 3.5?
 

Blank Mauser

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As most PMDT stated that feeling of "Limitless potential" was removed from most characters for a more solid game. Its great that some characters actually have to "Play smash" against you now. But honestly its not entirely without faults.

A lot of characters' playstyles were left in-tact while others were completely changed with little rhyme or reason. Meanwhile some characters still have very high juking potential when coming back to the stage, and moves that were supposedly nerfed because they'd be too good in a 3.5 environment don't really make sense to me when some tether characters still refresh from anywhere and kill you. A lot of flying characters still WoP amazingly as well. To me it feels stripped down, but not yet designed or articulated. Like they had good design ideas and opted to just revert to a more vanilla experience with a lot of attacks (Reverting to vbrawl) simply because they were deemed problematic. But made exceptions for other things.

Basically I feel like the "rules of smash" are still undefined. I don't think every change matches 3.5's design goals while also making the game less fun. If things only get further toned down from here I would be happy I guess. But if it goes the opposite direction I don't feel like we've accomplished much.
 
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GaretHax

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I wish people would stop approaching things in a character-specific vacuum and labeling things as buffs or nerfs. Knockback angles were changed, sourspots added, kb values adjusted to provide more variance, changes like these help to prevent scenarios in which a single move or string is ALWAYS the best option and adds counterplay layers back into the game. I really wish the pop-culture borderline narcissistic concepts of buffing and nerfing things had never been established as it really prevents people from seeing just how much the face of this game as a whole changed in this most recent update.

As a player, you have to understand that we've been enjoying a wonderfully complete open-beta and not a finished title. Within these beta's it is a near-responsibility of the developers to experiment with different concepts and designs to see what functions best in the environment they've created. Previous version have been admitted to have intended combo tools and links, alongside over-centralizing and non-homogenized movement options. This patch has simply brought these tools down to a more reasonable and standard level, and helped to eliminate the simple BNB combo's that were often near-guaranteed for many of the redesigned characters. These changes allow for MORE varied gameplay and add depth back into a game that was straightforward BY DESIGN in order to establish a foundation for characters to be built upon and an environment for them to be built around.
This patch was in no way intended to make your character worse or better, but simply to make the game as a whole, more varied, complex, and enjoyable for BOTH players, I imagine it will take some time for us to really see exactly how much the game has changed, but I anticipate many more unique combo's, counter play, and genuinely more creative and interesting gameplay in the near future.

This patch was meant to trim the fat from characters, and concepts that just didn't need to be as potent or consistent as they were, which in turn broadens the options available to both players. And frankly I love everything about this patch, less visually deceptive hitboxes, less unintuitive knockback and knockback angles, more emphasis on knowing which moves will send the opponent where at which percents, homogenization of movement option and SDI values, tweaked grab release points, angles, and kb values; frankly this is the least degenerate version of PM we've been handed to date. And that is truly a beautiful thing, I hope the PMBR approaches the game from this angle in every sub-sequent patch from here on out.
 
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J3f

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I of course believe there is no such thing as true balance and there will always be favorable and unfavorable match ups among a cast of 41 characters with mostly different playstyles, strengths and weaknesses. And with the huge changes I also feel there will be a shift in power, but what we have to ask ourselves is if this "shift" will be as drastic and polarizing as previous versions. Now when you say you feel the game to be "less" fun, what was it that 3.0 had that was more fun for you that 3.5?
3.0 felt like more of a finished product. 3.5 reverted most of the cast into what feels like a buggy beta state. The engine feels better (Wavedashing, Shield SDI, etc.), but the characters are worse.

Now I say "most" characters are in beta because a few are still fully realized. That is where the problem is. There's an S-tier while everyone else falls into B-tier at best. It's no coincidence that most of the S-tier is Melee top-tiers either. Matchups are bad now, in a perfect game Matchups would all be 50-50, in reality a great game has matchups that are no worse that 60-40. right now there are matchups that are 70-30 maybe even a few that are 75-25.

Matchups matter in the competitive scene. If you're playing to win you'll take every advantage you can get. The problem that plagued Melee was that the first advantage you choose is on the character select screen. Now with Project M 3.5 people will be less inclined to play the Beta characters and go back to the characters that avoided the nerf bat.

Project M 3.5 may be the Beta for 4.0, but it doesn't serve as a good testing grounds because the cast won't receive equal play. In 3.0 everyone may have been overpowered, but that worked because everyone was comparatively balanced to each other. Character choice didn't play a huge role in your win-loss rate. People picked up new characters instead of playing Melee top-tiers that had a well established meta before. Characters you'd never see in top 8 in Melee were making it to the finals in PM tournaments. This added screen time allows the Dev Team to make accurate judgments of a character's ability and ranking amongst the cast.

Now PM for me anyway, is less fun because the characters I like to play are at a pronounced disadvantage against the top-tier. In the past (3.0) it didn't matter as much, I could play a mid-tier like Kirby and still be competitive. 3.5 spread out the tiers so I have to work twice as hard as my opponent in some matchups. It feels disingenuous losing to a bad matchup now since I know the odds are stacked in their favor.
 

GabPR

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It has only been a week man, too soon to be dishing out tier lists or saying characters are too strong or too weak. We just have to wait to see how people develop their characters over the next few months.
 

Azureflames

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3.0 felt like more of a finished product. 3.5 reverted most of the cast into what feels like a buggy beta state. The engine feels better (Wavedashing, Shield SDI, etc.), but the characters are worse.

Project M 3.5 may be the Beta for 4.0, but it doesn't serve as a good testing grounds because the cast won't receive equal play. In 3.0 everyone may have been overpowered, but that worked because everyone was comparatively balanced to each other. Character choice didn't play a huge role in your win-loss rate. People picked up new characters instead of playing Melee top-tiers that had a well established meta before. Characters you'd never see in top 8 in Melee were making it to the finals in PM tournaments. This added screen time allows the Dev Team to make accurate judgments of a character's ability and ranking amongst the cast.

Now PM for me anyway, is less fun because the characters I like to play are at a pronounced disadvantage against the top-tier. In the past (3.0) it didn't matter as much, I could play a mid-tier like Kirby and still be competitive. 3.5 spread out the tiers so I have to work twice as hard as my opponent in some matchups. It feels disingenuous losing to a bad matchup now since I know the odds are stacked in their favor.
Who are you to say the cast won't receive equal play? For you maybe, but at this point dedicated mains are dedicated mains and most characters are now in even footing compared to 3.0. How does changing everything to feel more on par change things for the worse? Only thing that'll really change are the sheep players that roll with the top tiers and only pick what's considered God-tier/S-tier. When you mention characters never seen in top 8 melee getting to finals in PM, there was a lot of gimmicks and jank going on that allowed them to breeze past the competition. I thought it was actually more boring seeing nothing but one sided matches vs Mewtwo, pit, sonic, and diddykong. If you think that's how the finished product of the meta should be, yikes.

Either you are exaggerating on your own perception cause you're salty, or you simply played only broken characters in PM. I still think that most anyone can be picked up and be competitive. Keep in mind the patch came out only a week ago. If you really did just play broken characters in PM before, welcome to the world of everybody else in the game. Now you have to work for your wins.
 
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J3f

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2014
Messages
72
I don't have much hope for the characters improving around a 3.5 meta because Melee Top-tiers still did very well in 3.0. I don't see 3.5 characters dethroning most of the top-tiers unless something crazy happens like a plethora of new tech based on unforeseen bugs that catapults the bottom tiers to top-tier.


Who are you to say the cast won't receive equal play? For you maybe, but at this point dedicated mains are dedicated mains and most characters are now in even footing compared to 3.0. How does changing everything to feel more on par change things for the worse? Only thing that'll really change are the sheep players that roll with the top tiers and only pick what's considered God-tier/S-tier. When you mention characters never seen in top 8 melee getting to finals in PM, there was a lot of gimmicks and jank going on that allowed them to breeze past the competition. I thought it was actually more boring seeing nothing but one sided matches vs Mewtwo, pit, sonic, and diddykong. If you think that's how the finished product of the meta should be, yikes.

Either you are exaggerating on your own perception cause you're salty, or you simply played only broken characters in PM. I still think that most anyone can be picked up and be competitive. Keep in mind the patch came out only a week ago. If you really did just play broken characters in PM before, welcome to the world of everybody else in the game. Now you have to work for your wins.
Just look at how many people are switching mains now that their characters are less viable. Even in Melee there are people dedicated to non-tournament viable mains. The problem is that these people aren't playing against the top ranked PM players, so it's difficult to judge their full potential. Even if gimmicks are what made certain characters competitive the fact is that they were competitive. Now with gimmicks being toned down they weren't given anything to compensate for their losses. Breezing past pools doesn't matter, it's against the top players that you can really start judging a character's balance.
 
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Scuba Steve

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Messages
705
Location
Austin, TX
It was mostly Fox. A lot of the other Melee top tiers were pretty unspectacular in 3.0. Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Peach, Puff, and IC's all had fairly low representation in any 3.0 PM national.
 

Azureflames

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
156
Location
Rockford, Illinois
Switch FC
SW-0132-7109-3630
I don't have much hope for the characters improving around a 3.5 meta because Melee Top-tiers still did very well in 3.0. I don't see 3.5 characters dethroning most of the top-tiers unless something crazy happens like a plethora of new tech based on unforeseen bugs that catapults the bottom tiers to top-tier.
The sky is falling guys, we should just quit PM now because it is officially melee. No point playing anyone but fox now right? #20XX

Also the exaggerators and drama queens are real, the game will be fine. The meta will be fine. Overall i think it's a lot more healthy of an experience. On top of that the characters that were good before are STILL good now, they just have to adjust a little bit to the lack of janky gimmicks but they'll still be decent due to the nature of their character.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
What I don't understand is that PM 3.5 is supposed to be a design patch, not necessarily a balance one. But it feels like it went half-way on both. Some characters that weren't necessarily "problematic" are changed in the name of design, while others that did get balanced weren't completely balanced because "It's not meant to be a balance patch."

I still love 3.5, but I'd be lying if I said I liked it more than 3.02 so far. The feeling of conquering those tough matchups that people considered so "fraudulent" was actually really good.
 
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