Hypothetically speaking, we will pretend Nintendo is not brain dead.

[Yuna]

Melee is the most competitive fighting game in history?

There's too much fail in the OP for me to even pick it apart because pretty much 95% of what's in it is pure fail.

 

[robman1]

Yeah... nintendo is just terrible on the business end....

i mean look at their strategy with the Wii. That thing won't sell half as much as the PS3 and don't get me started on the Xbox....

And what were they thinking when they more thoroughly tested the newer smash brothers. Why didn't they just port Melee and improve the graphics? I want a glitchy game! I don't want Halo 3 i want Halo 2.X

Just because a game is centered less on button techniques does NOT mean that i loses its value. Brawl will appeal to a larger base of BOTH casual and competitive gamers.


Especially with that awful business mistake of involving Wifi.... who needs that business?


/rant

 

[Taymond]

Brawl will appeal to a larger base of BOTH casual and competitive gamers.

Way to provide the slightest amount of evidence to backup your claims.

You sure sound believable.

 

[nitnit]

@ Robman

Gotta love how according to http://nexgenwars.com/ Wii has sold the most consoles.

 

[robman1]

@ nitnit

sarcasm man cmon now

@Taymond

If you truly don't believe that more ppl will play Brawl and that because of this more ppl will play competitively ... well then maybe I should respect that judgment. But I honestly think that just the pure amount of sales will tell us something. And as for competitive portion of gameplay.. we can only wait and see but I also predict it only GROWING



If nintendo's focus was Japan... well they already succeeded money wise!

http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_wii_lobby/b8270/160038310/r160091697/

edit: clarifying for the month... but we will see total of course

 

[DonkeyHimer]

delete post

 

[orintemple]

This thread isn't about ****ing Halo, no one on a SMASH BROS. forum is going to give a **** about Halo at this point in time.

 

[bayonettrials]

HI!! i like pie!!!

Hay me tOo!!11

I just baked a fine boisenberry.

Would you like to join me for some tea and pie?

 

[Sasori's_Shadow]

Unfortunately, your entire argument is on the basis that Nintendo wants to draw in more competitive/hardcore players or wants to create a competitive game (or something along those lines), which is at best a baseless assumption. There is even evidence to suggest the opposite here in the Iwata Asks articles, in which Sakurai stated that he wants to close the gap between casuals and competitives, and in general make the game more "noob-friendly."

There's other stuff wrong with your argument too, though I'm too lazy to argue that right now.

And on another note, I'm pretty sure what I've just said in this post has already been said before as well. I haven't read a whole lot of this thread, so my apologies if my post is redundant in any way.

 

[robman1]

I feel like the fact that items are turned on by default is about as noob friendly as Nintendo realizes it needs to be... I mean honestly... what casual gamer turns off items and Final smashes? at that point they would probably be considered "hard-core"


tho... i have my problems with that term as well


As long as the sales beat out Melee I suppose its a job well done. In fact... if you step out of smashboards and any other smash forums, you realize the rest of the world loves the game. At least I haven't met a hater yet and IGN is tellin everyone else to buy with their 9.5

 

[Tlatoani]

Alright, now that you know what has been happening, time to actually think. After a 7 year obsession with Melee, tournaments being held everywhere, people making a living off of playing Melee, and the fact that these exploited flaws lead to all of it...you'd think Nintendo would realize this? Now, let's pretend that we exist in a world where everyone's intelligence was not rivaled by the living cells I expell when ejaculating and pretend that Nintendo took note of this. Do you honestly think that on a console where hardcore games were being lacked, they would purposely release one of the most anticipated games of all time to completely lack all of the elements that lead Melee to being so successful? Do you honestly think that because YOU have yet to find them, that they do not exist? Honestly people, wake the f-ck up.

Do you really believe that the competitive scene was the cause of melee selling so many copies? Do you believe that there are MORE competitive players than casual players in melee? or do you believe that a competitive player buys more copies of a game than a casual player?

 

[King Zeal]

Alright, I'll say that I think tripping is a rather bad thing. Anyone who thinks tripping is good is either kidding themselves or enjoys randomness.

Personally, I don't think Brawl is more or less competitive than Melee. In fact, it's way too early to say that. What I do think, however, is that Melee fans need to calm down about not being able to do the same things they could before. A long time ago, there was a game that came out where everything was different. There was an almost completely new cast of characters, move properties were entirely different, it moved more slowly than previous incarnations, and the fighting system was drastically altered. Everyone complained about the game and how different it was . . . until they sat down and started taking the game for what it was. You know what that game was called?

Street Fighter III.

So tripping exists. So what? Eventually, someone will come up with a metagame that either eliminates tripping entirely or makes it a non-issue. Wavedashing may not exist, but be patient. Eventually, someone will find something along those lines. Its inevitable. What I think everyone should be doing right now is taking the time to enjoy the fact that the game has reset the gap between top players and new players. Yeah, it sucks that you spent 6 years perfecting your Marth in Melee, only to have some Ike scrub beat you down online. But the playing field won't be level for long. Think of it as an opportunity. If you stick with this game like you did with Melee, eventually, you'll be ****** n00bs with the best of them.

 

[Crizthakidd]

how are we suppose to be better then cusualies now. the whoel game is now who can camp shield the most and dodge. mindgames seperates us now.

like seriously... nintendo u make me lolz with what was the greatest game in the world. i love brawl but people who could never beat me now can.

 

[King Zeal]

how are we suppose to be better then cusualies now. the whoel game is now who can camp shield the most and dodge. mindgames seperates us now..

That won't be the case forever.

 

[ph00tbag]

So tripping exists. So what? Eventually, someone will come up with a metagame that either eliminates tripping entirely or makes it a non-issue.

A smash game that doesn't require tapping the control stick? At all? I want you to try and imagine a game like that. Unfortunately, the disadvantage given by tripping is small enough that not tapping the control stick would not be viable at higher levels of play.

It's not like we're going to find another technique like wavedashing, here.

 

[King Zeal]

You overlooked my point there. There are plenty of competitive games that have random factors. Serious players simply find ways to eliminate or contain them.

 

[GotchaFF]

In the past, Nintendo has been known to make stupid moves. Since when have they ever listened to their fanbase and given them what they wanted? They don't give a crap about the competitive scene Melee had.

They took out advanced techniques and slowed down the game so it would appeal to more people. If they made a super hardcore fighter, the millions of soccer moms out there with kids who have Wiis probably wouldn't have bought the game. Apparently it worked, considering the game sold 1.4 million copies in a week.

Even though I hate Nintendo and Sakurai sooooooooo much for ruining Smash, it was a smart business move on Nintendo's part.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

OP, your argument is stupid, becasue all it contains is "I think, I think, I think," and no backup. It's just you trying to make people feel stupid and your opinion look absolute.

Not only has this post insulted my intelligence, but also, it has lessened my faith in these boards.

 

[Smo]

I'm so.. unsure.. about what exactly the OPs argument is.

Are you saying that Brawl doesn't lack a very strong competitive aspect, because it would be foolish for Nintendo to ignore competitive gaming, since Melee was so competitively popular?

Are you saying that Brawl does lack a strong competitive aspect, and people shouldn't be surprised at that, because Nintendo's concern is making money, which this game will certainly do, as it appeals to a casual audience almost wholly?

Are you saying that tripping isn't random, that we are currently mistaken in those beliefs, because to make tripping random would be a silly move, as it would indefinitely hamper the competitive crowd?

It's unclear what your stance is.

I also do not understand...

and OP if you're going to go on about good English, then you must know of course that Melee is not the predecessor of SSB but in fact SSB's successor.

Halo 2? ARE YOU FRICKING KIDDING ME? I'm sorry this is off-topic, but REALLY! Halo: CE was obviously the most competetive of the 3, WITH the best maps, in fact it was just like the same thing thats happening here. They made halo 2 much easier than Halo: CE, the competetive players cried, the casual players said "SUCK IT UP *****ES", same thing from halo 2 - halo 3. Just wanting to let you know that. I could give a very long explanation to why Halo: CE was the best halo game, but I won't.


Now, as to being on-topic so this post doesn't count as spam, why did you just say that last remark? You try to defend brawl after saying why its unsuperior to melee in a lot of ways? You're being very confusing.

you are correct. Halo 2, while popular, was imbalanced. Halo 3, to be honest though, is more balanced.



OP is confusing!

 

[ComradeSAL]

The OP is what happens when a person tries too hard to sound intelligent. The result is a rambling, incoherent rant about God knows what.

Also: Nintendo does not and probably should not care about the competitive community. It's not what's selling all those Wii's.

 

[Var]

how are we suppose to be better then cusualies now. the whoel game is now who can camp shield the most and dodge. mindgames seperates us now.

like seriously... nintendo u make me lolz with what was the greatest game in the world. i love brawl but people who could never beat me now can.

English would have been nice, but leetspeak sometimes suffices to show just how stupid you really are. The game is currently on a defensive because that's the easiest thing to do, and several characters are designed around the very idea (Pit). Though, last I checked, they weren't the ones winning tournaments...

Also, what part of your brain shut down to stop you from realizing that when playing a new game that the playing fields even out?

Anyway. The OP's near wall of deathtext was made of mostly fail and some win. That win coming from realizing that the game is infact marketed towards casuals and that this was a good move by Nintendo from a sales point. From there its just... well a pit really with no forseeable bottom.

 

[pesticide]

.... not sure what ur trying to make a point of...

 

[Taymond]

So tripping exists. So what? Eventually, someone will come up with a metagame that either eliminates tripping entirely or makes it a non-issue. Wavedashing may not exist, but be patient. Eventually, someone will find something along those lines. Its inevitable.

No. Absolutely not. The mere possibility of the existence of undiscovered ATs does NOT give you the right to make blanket denials of people's criticisms of Brawl. The possibility that things MAY turn out alright does not allow you to dismiss the possibility that they won't.

The inevitability argument is absurd, and does not have to hold. When Melee was released, the fan base was considerably smaller, and the portion of that fan base that care about or knew how to investigate the physics engine well enough to find ATs was almost not even notable. Brawl has an army of Melee competitive players and Melee casuals or new Brawlers looking to make a name for themselves investigating every extreme case they can think of in search for ATs. People know what they're looking for, and they know what to expect.

I don't think we've found everything there is to find, by any means. Nor do I believe that new things won't still be popping up for years to come. Nor do I even deny that there's a possibility that those new discoveries could completely change the way we look at Brawl. But you can't just say that we'll discover "flamshwicking" tomorrow and everything will be okay. The possibility of worthwhile ATs doesn't guarantee their existence, and the possibility of their existence doesn't change the simple fact that Nintendo screwed up in a number of ways here.

I like Brawl, don't get me wrong. But for the same reasons you think we can't say Brawl is less competitive than Melee, you can't say that it is or will be. Sure it's possible, but it's by no means guaranteed.

 

[Var]

No. Absolutely not. The mere possibility of the existence of undiscovered ATs does NOT give you the right to make blanket denials of people's criticisms of Brawl. The possibility that things MAY turn out alright does not allow you to dismiss the possibility that they won't.

The inevitability argument is absurd, and does not have to hold. When Melee was released, the fan base was considerably smaller, and the portion of that fan base that care about or knew how to investigate the physics engine well enough to find ATs was almost not even notable. Brawl has an army of Melee competitive players and Melee casuals or new Brawlers looking to make a name for themselves investigating every extreme case they can think of in search for ATs. People know what they're looking for, and they know what to expect.

I don't think we've found everything there is to find, by any means. Nor do I believe that new things won't still be popping up for years to come. Nor do I even deny that there's a possibility that those new discoveries could completely change the way we look at Brawl. But you can't just say that we'll discover "flamshwicking" tomorrow and everything will be okay. The possibility of worthwhile ATs doesn't guarantee their existence, and the possibility of their existence doesn't change the simple fact that Nintendo screwed up in a number of ways here.

I like Brawl, don't get me wrong. But for the same reasons you think we can't say Brawl is less competitive than Melee, you can't say that it is or will be. Sure it's possible, but it's by no means guaranteed.

The problem is two sided. Those who say brawl has no ATs make it out to be the ultimate end. That there will be no ATs and that life will end tomorrow. Those who defend Brawl defend it with equally idiotic zeal. So while one person may seem to be making a stupid argument, you have to question whether said argument wasn't started by someone elses even dumber argument, which is often times the case.

 

[Gill]

I have a question.

If competitive players are such a minority, then why the **** close the gap between them and casual players? Like if competitive vs casual was a 50/50, I'd understand, but somebody said it was like 98/2. The problem people are having is that, as much as we like to say its a thing between casual vs competitive, its really about people who suck and people who don't suck, seriously.

The only way to give noobs a shot against really good players is giving them tactics that take a second to learn and execute. Its simply not fun, or fair, that one player practices a technique for hours on end to get equally challenged by someone who just spams a technique they haven't even learned to apply because they never needed to.

Thats why I say **** closing the gap. Keep the gap as far as wide as possible. If someone wants to win, then they do so by sitting down, and practicing at getting good like ANYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. And if they don't want to take the time to get good like everyone else did, then play against lvl 1 computers or fellow horrible players.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Umm, can't get the OPs point in this, he just rambles on and ends with "loluguiezsuckballs"

but you know I can go from that

Look; Brawl isn't Melee. It doesn't have advanced techs, and it is geared towards a more casual audience. The game was NEVER, EVER designed for those in the tourney circuit - Melee just had wavedashing.

 

[6footninja]

Now this post is just getting ridiculous. I believe that you're trying your best to make a simple argument seem intelligent, its possible, but only in the hands of someone who is proficient at it.

sorry, off topic. But it had to come up

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Now this post is just getting ridiculous. I believe that you're trying your best to make a simple argument seem intelligent, its possible, but only in the hands of someone who is proficient at it.

sorry, off topic. But it had to come up

What, my post?

I don't think it's "ridiculous" in any way to suggest that a game made to bring all of Nintendo's characters from all of its franchises together wasn't made for a tournament audience, because it WASN'T, it was supposed to be a fun game that anyone could just pick up and play with their friends or by themselves.

Melee had wavedashing, crouch canceling and a variety of other glitches that made it very competitive and much faster than Brawl, and Brawl is just a return to what the game was originally made for - casual players who just want a fun game to play. I'm not saying that I'm a casual player, or that its good or bad for the game to be casual-friendly, I'm just saying that's the main audience the game is geared towards.

 

[Dartimien]

Thats why I say **** closing the gap. Keep the gap as far as wide as possible. If someone wants to win, then they do so by sitting down, and practicing at getting good like ANYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. And if they don't want to take the time to get good like everyone else did, then play against lvl 1 computers or fellow horrible players.

Naw, I love communism

 

[King Zeal]

No. Absolutely not. The mere possibility of the existence of undiscovered ATs does NOT give you the right to make blanket denials of people's criticisms of Brawl. The possibility that things MAY turn out alright does not allow you to dismiss the possibility that they won't.

That wasn't my point. The thing I was trying to emphasize was that the only way anything will be discovered at all is to continue playing the game and giving it time. Criticisms are fine. I have many criticisms about the game myself. But, I'm still willing to sit down and give it a chance. As someone else said in a completely different topic, this isn't the first time that the newest incarnation of a competitive game completely destroyed the metagame from the previous version. (Half Life: Source and Street Fighter 3 are two examples). Still, a metagame eventually came through because there were people willing to sit down and take the game for what it was.

The inevitability argument is absurd, and does not have to hold. When Melee was released, the fan base was considerably smaller, and the portion of that fan base that care about or knew how to investigate the physics engine well enough to find ATs was almost not even notable. Brawl has an army of Melee competitive players and Melee casuals or new Brawlers looking to make a name for themselves investigating every extreme case they can think of in search for ATs. People know what they're looking for, and they know what to expect.

I don't think we've found everything there is to find, by any means. Nor do I believe that new things won't still be popping up for years to come. Nor do I even deny that there's a possibility that those new discoveries could completely change the way we look at Brawl. But you can't just say that we'll discover "flamshwicking" tomorrow and everything will be okay. The possibility of worthwhile ATs doesn't guarantee their existence, and the possibility of their existence doesn't change the simple fact that Nintendo screwed up in a number of ways here.

I like Brawl, don't get me wrong. But for the same reasons you think we can't say Brawl is less competitive than Melee, you can't say that it is or will be. Sure it's possible, but it's by no means guaranteed.

And you just stated my point for me once again. There are too many "what ifs", "maybes" and "could bes" associated with the game right now to make too definite a call. I agree that the game is less competitive than Melee right now. It doesn't mean that it will be this way forever, although I am NOT denying that as a possibility.

 

[DragonBlade]

9 years ago a game was released that shocked the gaming culture, Super Smash Bros. Released on the Nintendo 64, this game dominated and showed how basic the mechanics of the fighting genre could be to formulate such advanced strategies. People were shocked and in love. 2 years later it's predecessor Melee was released, using new ideas and concepts. Over time people began to exploit accidental flaws (if I say glitch people get so defensive...apparently glitch offends more people then calling people racial slurs -_-) in the game and rocked the competitive scene. 7 years later, Brawl is released.

Alright, now that you know what has been happening, time to actually think. After a 7 year obsession with Melee, tournaments being held everywhere, people making a living off of playing Melee, and the fact that these exploited flaws lead to all of it...you'd think Nintendo would realize this? Now, let's pretend that we exist in a world where everyone's intelligence was not rivaled by the living cells I expell when ejaculating and pretend that Nintendo took note of this. Do you honestly think that on a console where hardcore games were being lacked, they would purposely release one of the most anticipated games of all time to completely lack all of the elements that lead Melee to being so successful? Do you honestly think that because YOU have yet to find them, that they do not exist? Honestly people, wake the f-ck up.

People are b1tching left and right about tripping...yes moron Nintendo installed a component to completely eliminate one of the most popular social aspects of THE WHOLE F-CKIN' GAMING CULTURE that used an entropic variable to stunt the gameplay... The sequel to THE MOST COMPETITIVE GAME OF ALL TIME was PURPOSELY designed to prevent the very scenario's... Wow...just wow. I shall condemn you all.

Seriously, wake up and learn buisness strategy. I am not even old enough to be able to take buisness related classes (or perhaps my highschool doesn't offer them...or maybe I dropped out...or maybe I am really a criminal convicted of rap3 upon young infants and then selling videos of my actions on an illegal internet p0rn ring) and I am able to see the flaws in this. Look at the aspects included in Brawl...their are f-ckin' free trials to video games included! Think it was as easy as canoodleing their noodles and then the magical liquid formulates all of the coding!? NO IDIOTS IT REQUIRES TIME AND EFFORT AND MONEY! So yeah...more unlockables = more money... so they are going to eliminate one of the most competive aspects of gaming culture thus resulting in loss of money and thus losing buisness, crediability, and a fan base. Wow, can't believe you shattered their bulletproof plans.

You all "elevate bull**** to an artform" -Maddox

kthxbai

I'm pretty sure Starcraft takes the title of most competitive game ever. Thankfully, SC2 is getting the development treatment it needs to be competitive, unlike Brawl did.

You don't seem to understand that Nintendo is a corporation. They exist for the purpose of making money. Developing games is just their means of doing that. Now answer a question for me. Does a game that is more competitive and longer replay value give them more money?

The truth is very few people initially buy games because they are deep and competitive, although that is the reason a lot of them keep playing. It doesn't matter to Nintendo if you drop the game a few weeks after you buy it. They still get the same amount of money. It doesn't matter to them if some noobs buy it over the best competitive gamers in the world.

On a side now, Starcraft 2 is constantly getting huge rebalances in development right now. They are adding and taking out units and completely reworking others for the sole purpose of gameplay, and they are communicating that with the community. They are working with the best competitive Starcraft players to make sure they like it, also. They aren't adding a bunch of stupid gimmicks and over emphasizing the single play story. Even if it may not be better than the original, at least Blizzard is trying. Its unfortunate I can't say the same for what Nintendo did.

 

[robman1]

So i guess the consensus is that most players believe that there will be no difference in skill levels in Brawl?

Thats the only way I could see a complaint as being viable... that or... simply they aren't very good anymore.

There's already some serious skill divides where I'm from...

 

[SilintNinjya]

sakurai specifically said he tried to make a game where a noob can pick it up and compete with someone who has been playing for years. thats why tripping was added in.

 

[enjoymoreradio]

First time poster, long time lurker:

He's saying that the game probably does have a competitive aspect, because to remove it would be bad business sense, especially when Melee balanced casual and competitive so nicely.

That said, he explains that the reason Brawl does not appear to have this competitive aspect is because the time we have had to investigate the game and its physics has been limited. The amount of time it took to discover and master certain techniques in Melee was much longer than a month and a half. Therefore, we should be patient, and play around with Brawl, and the competitive aspect will emerge. Let's not discount a game without giving a good shot.

 

[MoldinMindz]

Many top players have already posted on the boards about their enjoyment of Brawl (For one, Ken on the Marth forum is saying that he looves brawl, and he played more brawl tourneys than anyone). I think we need to realize that although the game is different.... slower, less hitstun, no wd / l-cancel., it can still be played enjoyably between 2 skilled players. Learn to set up your attacks, take advantage of the new sheilding mechanics... powersheilding is sweet, sheild-cancelling dashes, etc.... Brawl isn't that bad.

 

[MoldinMindz]

I think many of us need to calm down. I was guilty of disliking brawl at first, because as a marth player i couldn't run around and dominate like i did in melee. Now i'm relearning my character and I am finding new ways to win. Many top players have already posted on the boards about their enjoyment of Brawl (For one, Ken on the Marth forum is saying that he looves brawl, and he played more melee tourneys than anyone). I think we need to realize that although the game is different.... slower, less hitstun, no wd / l-cancel., it can still be played enjoyably between 2 skilled players. Learn to set up your attacks, take advantage of the new sheilding mechanics... powersheilding is sweet, sheild-cancelling dashes, etc.... Brawl isn't that bad.

 

[eyestrain92]

Anyone who looks at the OP as anything more than drunk, or extremely confused, or schizophrenic needs to leave. This is just random flip-flopping rants. All that is. His point is too vague for any human but himself to figure out.

 

[RBinator]

I hardly have much to say about this topic at the moment except for...

Melee had wavedashing, crouch canceling and a variety of other glitches that made it very competitive and much faster than Brawl, and Brawl is just a return to what the game was originally made for - casual players who just want a fun game to play. I'm not saying that I'm a casual player, or that its good or bad for the game to be casual-friendly, I'm just saying that's the main audience the game is geared towards.

Since when was crouch canceling a glitch? What other Melee techniques do you consider a glitch?

 

[robman1]

lol yeah crouch canceling was pretty built in from what I could tell

 

[Snoopfrogg]

cry more ***got