Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

Ganon has room for development vs. Marth. That much is for damn sure. Aside from recovery, every aspect of that matchup can be pushed based on what people are currently doing.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Random stuff that works when I play Marth

Cc vs. Marth fair is the stuff.

When far away facing away, dj. Now you have a mixup of fast falling into bair, wl in (you could moonwalk, pivot grab, pivot jab/ftilt, or bair/dair if Marth dashes even farther away), wl away, and land in place ftilt to change directions.

 

[-ACE-]

And more...

DI'ing on reaction from his throws is important. If he grabs you by ledge facing offstage, you want to DI just out of tipper fsmash range but no farther. Away and various forms of up and away are often optimal depending on his exact position and your percent. If he's not right at the ledge (back a step or two), down and away can often give you a free dj sweetspot to ledge. At center stage he can go for fthrow follow-ups versus dthrow (even bthrow if he thinks you'll DI away). For dthrow, up+behind (super low%), behind (usually best), or down and behind at high%. But if you're DI'ing behind he can get dthrow follow-ups. Fthrow is harder to react to so think about his goals and habits regarding your DI, but if he's going to fthrow definitely DI away. Dthrow you can react to if you're quick and make his techchasing more challenging.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

CC vs an aerial-based marth in general is the ****. Everything leads into a grab except for spaced fair, which gets you a jab. And I'll trade 7% with whatever marth fair is lol that character is light as ****.

^ I personally would almost never double jump vs marth like that, grim lol, if you get caught, you're probably dead. Just full hop instead, it gives you the same mixups. I would probably disagree with jumping when far away too unless it's an aggro marth (aka one that doesn't play the matchup correctly). If it's a dash dance happy marth, go in and crouch. Basically don't jump unless you expect him to.

 

[-ACE-]

Joe with the nasty tricks I need to take note of lol

 

[Swagic]

And this is why we need a new matchup thread.

 

[F. Stein]

You know... it would be fun to organize a bunch of information for a new matchup thread or just a Ganon information thread overall. You could do relevant information, hard data, comments from noteable Ganons on specific matchups and courses of action, links to videos to demonstrate matchups or concepts, get some of these real kings of evil on podcast or something. It would be cool to see something like that.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

CC vs an aerial-based marth in general is the ****. Everything leads into a grab except for spaced fair, which gets you a jab. And I'll trade 7% with whatever marth fair is lol that character is light as ****.

^ I personally would almost never double jump vs marth like that, grim lol, if you get caught, you're probably dead. Just full hop instead, it gives you the same mixups. I would probably disagree with jumping when far away too unless it's an aggro marth (aka one that doesn't play the matchup correctly). If it's a dash dance happy marth, go in and crouch. Basically don't jump unless you expect him to.

You only do it when you're like halfway across the stage from him. The reason for the double jump is to get the better wl and to bait him to come in. You're right, you can get killed. But if you know where to do it from, then Marth has no shot of hitting you while you're in the double jump. It works surprisingly well. Watch how often Bizz gets wl in ftilts and grabs. Then watch as he mixes it up by just wl in place ftilt. **** works man. Not saying it's going to work against all Marths, but you do what you gotta do as Ganon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DusZrehk8Ig

Oh and finally the wl ftilt will often catch Marth out of dash dance. That's why it's good. And if Marth starts shielding, you grab. When he starts trying to hit you out of the wl, you react and just wl in place ftilt, jab, or dtilt

 

[Swagic]

So I just realized something funny about my tag that was entirely unintentional- my IRL last name is Powers...

 

[Diosama]

I'd be down to write something up once summer starts. I might not be well versed in all matchups, but with all the good stuff in this thread plus your added inputs, we could make something out of it. Til then, I'll just be hosting my college's weeklies and keep play time low.

 

[-ACE-]

X WaNtEd X I get your point and I agree it's viable. But bizz went super overboard with the dj wavelands that set. I'm amazed that Ken never saw any of them coming lol. It's very punishable if you get that predictable. It's best to grind shff perfect wL so it can be added to your arsenal (much less predictable/"reactable"). Perfect plat wL to ff perfect wL too.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You only do it when you're like halfway across the stage from him. The reason for the double jump is to get the better wl and to bait him to come in. You're right, you can get killed. But if you know where to do it from, then Marth has no shot of hitting you while you're in the double jump. It works surprisingly well. Watch how often Bizz gets wl in ftilts and grabs. Then watch as he mixes it up by just wl in place ftilt. **** works man. Not saying it's going to work against all Marths, but you do what you gotta do as Ganon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DusZrehk8Ig

Oh and finally the wl ftilt will often catch Marth out of dash dance. That's why it's good. And if Marth starts shielding, you grab. When he starts trying to hit you out of the wl, you react and just wl in place ftilt, jab, or dtilt

Dude Ken adapted super slowly in that set and still bizz got rekt for it at the end. Waveland ftilt is definitely super viable in most every matchup, but the double jump is a lot more predictable, like Dave said. Def practice the short hop Waveland as it's faster and therefore less reactable, less punishable because you keep your double jump, and it often has a higher success rate because marth will just think that you're going for a fair and use that dash dance range. Anyone who watches a few bizz videos knows double jump means potential Waveland.

You do have the right idea though and those are viable options as mix-ups. I just wouldn't say that that's an "always" option in your scenario, that's all. And bear in mind none of the things you mentioned beat dtilt.

 

[-ACE-]

A marth that's good at spacing dd tipper dtilt can be such a pain in the @$$ lol

 

[Bwmat]

DJ wl is so much easier than shffl wl, after all this time I'm still like 50% consistency or less in the latter, while the former is like 95+ if you don't count missing the platform lol.

Marth's not that bad for Ganon, but lately I've been sometimes almost losing to randoms when they get jank back throw to tipper fsmash @ ledge.

Edit: actually I meant down throw

 

[-ACE-]

Marth's not that bad for Ganon, but lately I've been sometimes almost losing to randoms when they get jank back throw to tipper fsmash @ ledge

Try slightly more behind than up+behind DI.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Dude Ken adapted super slowly in that set and still bizz got rekt for it at the end. Waveland ftilt is definitely super viable in most every matchup, but the double jump is a lot more predictable, like Dave said. Def practice the short hop Waveland as it's faster and therefore less reactable, less punishable because you keep your double jump, and it often has a higher success rate because marth will just think that you're going for a fair and use that dash dance range. Anyone who watches a few bizz videos knows double jump means potential Waveland.

You do have the right idea though and those are viable options as mix-ups. I just wouldn't say that that's an "always" option in your scenario, that's all. And bear in mind none of the things you mentioned beat dtilt.

I also do it with sh. But dj baits harder imo. Both should be used interchangeably.

I don't think of it as an always option. It's just something that works at times. If you want to look for "always" options, ganon isn't the best character lol.

Bair beats dtilt. Wl away avoids it.

 

[-ACE-]

Edit: actually I meant down throw

Ahh. I essentially go lower at low% and try to dj sweetspot ledge, and DI higher as my percent is higher (behind DI). You kind of have to have a feel for what's necessary to avoid the tipper. Then always be ready for them to cover the dj sweetspot with dair (airdodge onto stage often surprises them and you don't get punished tooooooo badly).

 

[Linguini]

LOL that up tilt I got on prof was hilarious...love going for that when sheiks have no choice but to extend their up b's

 

[-ACE-]

LOL that up tilt I got on prof was hilarious...love going for that when sheiks have no choice but to extend their up b's

Lol it's funny how you've been straight cooking sheiks, Ganons and Falcons with that (even seen you override marth's up-b with it when he sweetspots) since like 09 and 95% of the melee community thinks bizz is the pioneer of that move. I love utilt'ing scrubs, and when they complain or get frustrated I'm like "you know I've hit Bizzarro Flame with a utilt before" their faces = O_o lmao

 

[-ACE-]

Some IKILLMEN vids

Eikelmann vs Detta (Puff)
https://youtu.be/SrfqfWgcxtc

Eikelmann vs WizP (Sheik)
https://youtu.be/6sTktRkY2DM

Eikelmann (Ganon, Samus) vs IGIS (ICs)
https://youtu.be/GARQrbVcGgg

Eikelmann vs HolyNugz (Fox)
https://youtu.be/e9kChNy0HsE

Eikelmann vs Syrox (Fox)
https://youtu.be/qIAwha1YQgA

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yo damn syrox is pretty good

 

[-ACE-]

Yo damn syrox is pretty good

Yeah. Gotta SDI like a madman though and force him to adapt. He's overly heavy on aerials imo. Not much running shine or grab.

 

[F. Stein]

lol i love how those guys are trying to figure out what RLD is. These sets were bomb, lots of study material. Ace, you say SDI and I should probably know exactly what you mean but I don't have a clue. I get bodied in this matchup a lot, how should I be SDI'ing if I found myself in a similar position?

 

[-ACE-]

lol i love how those guys are trying to figure out what RLD is. These sets were bomb, lots of study material. Ace, you say SDI and I should probably know exactly what you mean but I don't have a clue. I get bodied in this matchup a lot, how should I be SDI'ing if I found myself in a similar position?

Slamming the stick away every time you're hit is ~80% of it. It'll stop a good bit of that nair to pivot utilt BS. Ian also missed some shield opportunities. If fox isn't grabbing, shield your a$$ off and roll when it's safe.

IF MY PHONE CHANGES NAIR TO BAIR ONE MORE TIME I SWEAR

 

[-ACE-]

lol i love how those guys are trying to figure out what RLD is

If bizz doesn't do it, no one knows what it is lol

Edit: going to start catching sheiks occasionally with warlock punch now. Damn it Ian that **** is so demoralizing when you have the read LOL

 

[X WaNtEd X]

When someone asks you how you are hax dashing with Ganon

 

[-ACE-]

When someone asks you how you are hax dashing with Ganon

View attachment 103816

LOOOOOOOOL so true

 

[Divinokage]

When someone asks you how you are hax dashing with Ganon

View attachment 103816

Rofl I get that all the time too but its pretty nice to be able to RLD perfectly with that new controller.

Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfFUZEiWBc&list=PLOIosfc1VMwkTzGUrc7f8VAtgC_NqBykq Playlist from that Vermont tournament with IN.

 

[Coastward]

dude ian had so many opportunities to uthrow syrox but just did dthrow and got nothing out of it most of the time. that was a super sick set though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Rofl I get that all the time too but its pretty nice to be able to RLD perfectly with that new controller.

Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfFUZEiWBc&list=PLOIosfc1VMwkTzGUrc7f8VAtgC_NqBykq Playlist from that Vermont tournament with IN.

Good stuff taking out IN and Tian. But that crowd tho. NH talks so much ****.

 

[Linguini]

LOL New Hampshire got bodied by kage. good **** Roustane

 

[-ACE-]

Set 2 GF's.... InfiniteBodyBags

 

[F. Stein]

Anyone feel like helping me learn something from my matches? I'm still really bad at match disection and note taking other than... oh, I should have used Uair there. I think that I need to platform drop a lot more for starts... SDing all the time is also bad. I won the first set against this peach here:

https://www.twitch.tv/wyosc/v/59642692
starts at 12:45

and then lost the seconds set against him here:

https://www.twitch.tv/wyosc/v/59664229
I think that I'm starting to get a lot of basics down but that's about it.

 

[-ACE-]

Yo I can't help you with SD's... I throw away stocks like they're cartons of sour milk LOL. I'll take a look later though, obviously dissecting is one of my strengths.

 

[spider_sense]

GanonRR is happening this weekend. Tipman, Linguni, Ace are about to get owned by this web-slinger! Plz watch the TGL Monthly this saturday and show your support. Will post a link later on during the stream (or one of us will lol)

 

[Swagic]

I don't care if you record it with a literal potato, that needs to be kept for future generations. I'm now debating going literally just to watch that.

 

[Duel]

What should I be going for out of Up Throw on Fox, and at what %'s should I be going for up throw?

 

[-ACE-]

That's it. I'm making a video.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i went to a smash fest the other night and got my drunken ganon style going on. all bo5 sets.

vs. corona (link) - i barely know this matchup. i think ganon has chaingrab but i don't know how long it goes off the top of my head so i kept ****ing it up.
vs. pizza master (falco)
vs. nugget (fox)
vs. pizza master (falco)

 

[-ACE-]

So I didn't have enough space and I got cut off before I could finish, but this is still decent for winging it.

Ganon grab punish game
https://youtu.be/-rlsmHbh6mE

Additives:
2:25 jab is viable too out of dthrow at this %
7:50 turnaround jab for DI behind off uthrow (40-low 50's is viable)
8:00 dthrow jab is viable also here
8:55 regrab OR uair/jab/ftilt etc.
12:15 regrab from dthrow (cg) if they DI toward center stage.

Note: I really think you can't regrab fox at 135-140ish until like 170 something if they DI full behind (dthrow cg). I know this goes against the magus bible but that **** seems impossible to me.