Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

I live in Texas, so maybe...?

We can always try. Send me a PM and we can work it out.

Yeah, considering I just did it for the first time like two days ago, I'd say this is a pretty easy tech to learn.

Thanks for the inputs. Unfortunately, that's exactly what I've been doing (except I use x instead of y) so it seems I'm just not fast enough. I think I'm going to practice by wavedashing/landing offstage and double jumping to a platform to get the timing down.

Fast is not usually the issue because the only thing that's really straining to move is your left thumb. Think precision instead of speed and break it down into steps. Can you land on the platform or no? That's step one because, if you can't, you're either not flicking to the left or jumping at the right time.

 

[-ACE-]

Flicking toward the stage and jumping ASAP is everything for me

 

[Maxzeth]

Hey Ace, will you play me in a ditto?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

In other news: The number of people who have to switch to sheik in an attempt to beat me is now up to:

4

The bad news? They're all successful at it.

PRZ - beat his spacies when we played, now he switches to sheik. Unfortunately, VERY successful. I've brought him to game 3 last stock 100+%, but can never clutch out the set. He usually bodies me tbh. I'd actually say he's a better player than I am by just a little bit, so I'm not too salty about this one.

7ent - reset grand finals vs his falco (his main). Went sheik at the end to clutch out the set. His sheik beat dart too, so he's actually really good with sheik. 65th at evo, so I guess I shouldn't be too upset. But I did so well vs falco (his main) that I feel like I got ripped off.

Sizzle - Relatively consistent 2 and 3 stocks vs his marth. We're about equal in skill level, but I'm good vs marth and he sucks vs ganon, so I win. He started switching to sheik and now our sheik vs ganon record is even. Can't have that.

Sago - I've only lost one game to his marth loooool, never even close to losing a set, really. He took a game off of linguini at apex, so he's decent at the ganon matchup, but he's bad at the PseudoTurtle matchup. Since switching to sheik, we're even in ganon vs sheik sets.

TL;DR It's flattering that they all suck too bad and I beat their mains, but I need to grind at the sheik matchup and any tips would be appreciated. I can't keep letting players that I can beat switch to sheik and fraudulently take sets that I'd potentially otherwise win.

ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED - feel free to add to the list.

Important grab setups to watch out for:
1) needle --> grab.

Punishes: all aerials (WTF), all grounded moves (WTFFFFFFF).
Avoidable by rolling and, to a lesser extent, SDI (makes the grab harder to do, but is still sometimes guaranteed if you get hit by the later needles). I don't really have a good counter-attack to this one as dashing away does nothing here.

Could maybe dash past and try to get under it? Seems like you'd need a read

2) dash in, wait for ganon to throw out laggy move, wavedash back, boost grab

Can't aerial here or I get punished. Downward angled ftilt seems to be a good counter to this and it doesn't appear to be punishable by grab.

3) aerial into grab.

Not really that hard to deal with, but a decent mixup if I'm not CCing. Honestly, pretty situational and doesn't happen very often because sheiks don't typically like to throw out late aerials. Easy to beat with a CC --> jc grab.

4) run in and boost grab (STUPID RANGE ON THAT MOVE)

Always gets me because of how fast sheik is and how ****lNG HUGE the grab box is on that move. Sometimes even beats out stomp and **** don't ask me how.

Beats out your dash dance if you're spacing for ftilt instead of dash attack / boost grab or whatever. I think the way to beat this would be a reactionary pivot downward angled ftilt (sheik can dash under your jab, grab, and ftilt, so it has to be downward angled). Too bad that **** is really hard to do consistently.

Ok, those are the grab setups I need to watch out for. Anyone got anything else? More grab setups to look out for / other **** I should avoid?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Flicking toward the stage and jumping ASAP is everything for me

Yea it's tricky and it's easier to do on yoshi's, so practicing there first is what I recommend. I think it gives you an extra 2 frames or so to input your jump and the platforms extending farther makes it so you don't really need to do the SWD motion I think.

 

[-ACE-]

Hey Ace, will you play me in a ditto?

I would buddy, but I don't have netplay. Even then it would probably be laggy.

PseudoTurtle sounds like you're going to get good sheik practice lol. PS I used to respect your region LOL

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle sounds like you're going to get good sheik practice lol. PS I used to respect your region LOL

Lmfao, it's too true. P.S. Sago is the only Chicago player who's switched to sheik against me, all the others have remained respectable. This is Champaign I'm talking about (the region that is struggling to decide whether or not I'm allowed on the crew for TMG... LOL and they can't even consistently beat me with their mains).

edit: ACTUALLY, a pretty solid Chicago marth decided to CP sheik against me when we played. His marth didn't even lose thaaaat bad, but he felt more comfortable as sheik, I guess.

I four stocked him.

He then proceeded to john about ganon. As sheik. I actually had respect for the guy up until that point looooool.

 

[Maxzeth]

He then proceeded to john about ganon. As sheik.

Kek.

So, I've watched a few videos, and I notice a common (and probably basic, such a noob am I) approach tool in the form of wl/wd -> jab/f-tilt/grab. I can do it, yet never do because I have more confidence in spacing aerials than approaching on the ground (as in, I don't have the balls to get in my opponent's face). Should I implement this with frequency (against spacies, floaties, shiek, etc.) or as a mixup?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kek.

So, I've watched a few videos, and I notice a common (and probably basic, such a noob am I) approach tool in the form of wl/wd -> jab/f-tilt/grab. I can do it, yet never do because I have more confidence in spacing aerials than approaching on the ground (as in, I don't have the balls to get in my opponent's face). Should I implement this with frequency (against spacies, floaties, shiek, etc.) or as a mixup?

Aerials aren't really a good approach tool. Fair is super slow and easy to avoid, so I'd shy away from fair as an approach tool. You can catch your opponent with bad spacing by throwing out a delayed fair (don't fast fall it), but it's situational. You can approach pretty well with bair (waveland --> bair) and then pressure with jabs / tilts, but that's really the only aerial approach option that's legitimate. Same goes for auto cancelled up airs, but those aren't as easy to space as bairs, and approaching with an up air is pretty punishable.

Retreating up air / fair are much, much safer than approaching with them.

Good approach tools:
1) waveland in. Opponents like to dash dance when they expect you to fair. If you SH then waveland in --> tilt / jab / grab, you can usually catch them with bad spacing.

2) Run in and crouch (low %). A lot of the time, players get scared of ganon and want to try and attack him before he gets too close. Since ganon is slow and his moves are slow, this is a pretty good option. Unless you can crouch cancel. Free jab and sometimes grab. Easy $$.

3) Dash attack (seriously). Similar to marth / sheik, your dash attack is actually very good at stuffing dash dancing opponents (just like option 1, but it's a little quicker).

These ARE legitimate mixups, but really, they only work in limited situations, so use them sparingly. They're only one step away from being gimmicks.

Controlling center stage and forcing your opponent into a corner as ganon is IMO much more important than how you decide to approach. Walling out with up airs and tilts when they're in a corner is going to be your bread and butter as ganon.

Baiting them in and punishing is much more effective when you're playing ganon (think: marth).

One more thing that would have helped me immensely when I was first playing: learn to love the corner. The obvious temptation you're going to have when in the corner is to try and get back to center stage, but ganon is slow. But here's the nice thing about ganon's bair- it's big as **** and it's also really fast (frame 7, if I'm not mistaken). You don't even have to retreat the aerial because of its speed. If your opponent is coming at you from the center, stay patient. Bair, tilt, jab, and jump away until it's safe to go in. Be patient.

And if all else fails, go to the edge, waveland in with invincibility, and buffer a roll in lol. Pretty damn safe option and they'll have to read the roll to punish you.

That's a short (yes, short) list of some of the ganon fundamentals that took me 3+ years to learn lol. Hope it helps.

 

[Maxzeth]

I can't waveland from the edge for ****

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Practice on temple

 

[-ACE-]

Also Ganons bair is frame 10, so 16 FP from ground.

 

[tm]

In other news: The number of people who have to switch to sheik in an attempt to beat me is now up to:

4

The bad news? They're all successful at it.

RIP dude. Can't say I'm better though, I've got foxes and sheiks counterpicking to falco and falcon with moderate success >___>

edit: Sheik is probably my best high tier MU. I can do an analysis of a vid if you want. Or I could write a guide from my own perspective. There are a lot of general tips but as you know it's not that easy without seeing what you do. First thing's first though: you need to have your punish game down 100%. 20XX, no excuses, grind it out. It will pay off more than in any other MU, guaranteed. Then you just have to outplay your opponent 8 times

 

[tm]

Lmfao, it's too true. P.S. Sago is the only Chicago player who's switched to sheik against me, all the others have remained respectable. This is Champaign I'm talking about (the region that is struggling to decide whether or not I'm allowed on the crew for TMG... LOL and they can't even consistently beat me with their mains).

edit: ACTUALLY, a pretty solid Chicago marth decided to CP sheik against me when we played. His marth didn't even lose thaaaat bad, but he felt more comfortable as sheik, I guess.

I four stocked him.

He then proceeded to john about ganon. As sheik. I actually had respect for the guy up until that point looooool.

Dude when I went to Rubicon 3 (let's not talk about results tho) I played a guy in losers and he went sheik. I chaingrabbed him of course, and he stayed sheik and CPd to FD. I bodied him, then after the set he goes on about how he shouldve just played his main (peach) because I probably get a ton of practice vs sheik, and he barely ever plays her and wasn't ready for a "lame chaingrabber".

Counterpick harder please / stay salty

 

[-ACE-]

LOL that kid just needs to ****ing recognize. You def play the sheik and peach matchups better than most. Reminds me of the Ganon haters I encountered at Evo.

I'm very familiar with the sheik matchup just rusty on consistency. I think I'm much better vs fox and Falco since I've moved here, making strides with my Marth game also. Like many I need puff practice, peach too.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I've had some people cp sheik against me as well, most of the time with success. I could practice the chaingrab more, but I'd rather invest in a more long term solution and learn the matchup as a secondary. I can't decide between marth, sheik, falco, or puff.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dude when I went to Rubicon 3 (let's not talk about results tho) I played a guy in losers and he went sheik. I chaingrabbed him of course, and he stayed sheik and CPd to FD. I bodied him, then after the set he goes on about how he shouldve just played his main (peach) because I probably get a ton of practice vs sheik, and he barely ever plays her and wasn't ready for a "lame chaingrabber".

Counterpick harder please / stay salty

LOLLLL ok kid, chain grabbing sheik is lame. Sure. That's cool, they just expect us to play the 80/20 matchup as is I guess.

You remember his tag? Because if he played peach, I guarantee he was a scrub lord anyway. There was only one decent peach there (besides MacD) and I know he doesn't have a pocket sheik.

The point I'm trying to make is not that I'm scared of sheik- I haven't lost to a sheik worse than me since the start of summer. It just sucks when I can beat marth / fox / falco players, but that they can enter a cheat code to win where they otherwise may not.

 

[-ACE-]

Such ignorance. I cg sheik proudly and make her life miserable at all costs. For once she has to focus (imo it's easy to get inside of a sheik player's head due to the well known notion that Ganon gets roflstomped) after you show her you aren't free.

 

[tm]

LOLLLL ok kid, chain grabbing sheik is lame. Sure. That's cool, they just expect us to play the 80/20 matchup as is I guess.

You remember his tag? Because if he played peach, I guarantee he was a scrub lord anyway. There was only one decent peach there (besides MacD) and I know he doesn't have a pocket sheik.

The point I'm trying to make is not that I'm scared of sheik- I haven't lost to a sheik worse than me since the start of summer. It just sucks when I can beat marth / fox / falco players, but that they can enter a cheat code to win where they otherwise may not.

Yeah his tag was BigC. Otherwise seemed like a chill dude but that seriously put the Jackie Chan WTF face on me.

Additionally at a tournament 2 saturdays ago, I lost a total of 4 stocks in a six-man pool, making two sheiks ragequit their last stock

 

[-ACE-]

Rofl I'm actually an old school Jackie Chan fan. I love JC's first strike. Haven't seen it, or operation condor, or rumble in the Bronx, or many others in over 5 years but yeah. guy did his own stunts.

 

[Divinokage]

Rofl I'm actually an old school Jackie Chan fan. I love JC's first strike. Haven't seen it, or operation condor, or rumble in the Bronx, or many others in over 5 years but yeah. guy did his own stunts.

Drunken Master let's go!!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Rofl I have yet to have anyone actually switch to Sheik to beat me, but it's certainly not my strongest matchup.

I would definitely say my strongest matchup is Marth, followed by Falcon, Fox, and Falco, in that order.

I am thinking against Sheik, when she jumps you should seriously space yourself decently at worst and get in those instant upairs. Her short hop goes pretty high and if you call out the Sheik jumping then it can be the stock for you, especially if you send her off stage.
If she's on the ground a lot, you can waveland in and space a down-angled ftilt. It needs to be down-angled so that it beats Sheik crouching, but it will also beat her trying to jab you into something, as you will be ASDI'ing down while wavelanding and doing the ftilt. I hate that Ganon's jab goes right over Sheik dashing. Bump that noise.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

2015 Ganon movement https://youtu.be/hS4MXVU6ha0

 

[X WaNtEd X]

rotfl this guys is actually legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKB7BdPcZQ

 

[Superspright]

I've had some people cp sheik against me as well, most of the time with success. I could practice the chaingrab more, but I'd rather invest in a more long term solution and learn the matchup as a secondary. I can't decide between marth, sheik, falco, or puff.

The CG is the long-term solution...honestly a lot of you guys really don't like to play this character the way he ought to be played. You basically got wobbles on everyone in a sense and you opt to not learn it because it's too hard, or the timing is too stringent or whatever. I think it would do everyone a big boost to just get it over with and master the CG already. Make it a staple in your game, or you're going to just get molested/disrespected by Shiek. She doesn't need a CG. She can just chain together a bunch of tilts and kill you. Without an option like that you should just look for a tech-chase opportunity or just flat-out grab the ***** and make her suffer. Yes, it's not fun or sporting but screw it. Neither is picking a ****ing 80-20.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, at this point it's basically about playing to get grabs.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Le chaingrab

The chaingrab is not a long term solution. It's something you can use to beat mid level and even some high level sheiks. But it doesn't change the fact it's an 80-20 matchup. In other words, ganon can't beat the best sheiks even with the chaingrab. The true long term solution is simply not to play that terrible of a matchup.

That isn't to say the chaingrab isn't worth learning. I envision counterpick wars in which you could be forced to play ganon sheik for a game.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

whats 80-20 about it? cging shiek is easy, fox and falco a little more tricky.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

https://youtu.be/iowjm_iEJgc I'm joining the hype

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's dthrow >>>> all sheiks

 

[Superspright]

80-20 is primarily our imagination. It's not insurmountable, it's just that it's very hard. And yes, that matchup is CG based. I guess you're going to have to pick a secondary if you want to try to play a real neutral that isn't cheeky.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I think it's more along the lines of 70-30. I was just quoting supersight when I said that.

No **** it's CG based man. Everyone has already arrived to that conclusion.

The way you speak is how I would describe the spacies, particularly Fox. Sheik...I just don't think the matchup is worth playing as Ganon.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

80 / 20 in that sheik has a cg on ganon as well that's better because it sets up an auto edge guard (which will be death with any semi respectable sheik). Getting grabbed by sheik is basically guaranteed death. Getting grabbed by ganon is, ideally, 80% or so, but it's not guaranteed death.

Oh, yea, and it's also MUCH easier for sheik to get a grab. She's faster (so she wins right there), she has stupid setups with needles, and her grab range is ridiculous. She can also duck, dsmash, and dash under your grab attempts and jabs (a really good anti-grab tool). Did I mention her spot dodge is broken as **** too? Yea because that's a thing as well.

Saying you have a chain grab on sheik is true, but it's basically nullified at the very least because she cg's you right back. Of course, it's more than just nullified IMO because of all of the above, but nonetheless... her neutral is way better than yours. Sheik doesn't need to approach. One needle and now you're forced to.

One ftilt while you're in the air and you're dead. One dtilt and you don't cc it? Dead. Up smash? DEAD. It's 80-20 IMO. Completely ****ed.

Yea, sheik def not worth playing as ganon for me. But fox is just so much fun to combo.

SPEAKING OF COMBOS: I got this one accidentally. But has anyone intentionally connected with the second hit of up smash? That **** actually combos pretty well lmfao. I combo'd into a fair at something pretty low, maybe 40% or just below it. I was on FD, so couldn't really expand on platform setups, but I was thinking... what if you SH a stomp through the plat to hit them up, then do the second hit up smash from the ground? Could probably make stomp --> 2nd hit up smash --> fair work at % as low as 20 or so. Try it out. Free ~60% out of one stomp and it's at that % that's hard to extend combos. Likely to set up an edge guard every time.

 

[tm]

Sheik city. Got 2nd at a local yesterday, played 4 sets against the top 2 sheiks in the area @__@
Tha'ts 16 games vs sheik in WF, LF, and GF, and the other 2 games were me being CP'd by falco / falcon on FD

 

[RedmanSSBM]

In my opinion, unless the only Sheiks you are losing to are at like KirbyKaze, Swedish Delight, and Flash's level and above (ie Plup, DruggedFox, M2K, Shroomed, etc), then there is no real reason to not play Ganon against Sheik. It's hard at your level for a reason. Kage 2-0ed Drephen like it was nothing yet Drephen would probably sweep the floor with most of us. Drephen 2-0ed $mike and $mike is an extremely solid Falcon.

I'm not going to think about using any secondary characters against Sheik until I reach that level. Once I get to that point, then it will definitely be time for me to get a counter-pick for the matchup, but in the meantime, there is more that can be done.

Hell, even Laudandus is beatable with Ganon in my opinion. He might be a "gateway" Sheik in terms of matchup mastery.

 

[Coastward]

In my opinion, unless the only Sheiks you are losing to are at like KirbyKaze, Swedish Delight, and Flash's level and above (ie Plup, DruggedFox, M2K, Shroomed, etc), then there is no real reason to not play Ganon against Sheik. It's hard at your level for a reason. Kage 2-0ed Drephen like it was nothing yet Drephen would probably sweep the floor with most of us. Drephen 2-0ed $mike and $mike is an extremely solid Falcon.

I'm not going to think about using any secondary characters against Sheik until I reach that level. Once I get to that point, then it will definitely be time for me to get a counter-pick for the matchup, but in the meantime, there is more that can be done.

Hell, even Laudandus is beatable with Ganon in my opinion. He might be a "gateway" Sheik in terms of matchup mastery.

that goes for any matchup really. unless you're kage, you really shouldn't need to rely on secondaries for a matchup thats not in ganon's favour. just keep learning ganon and strive to be perfect.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Locke, you're absolutely right and that's why secondaries are pointless for actual improvement because, even if you have a higher tier character, you'll still just be a mediocre player playing with a fox or whatever.

But... I'm also tired of losing. Simple as that. It's just really frustrating to me when I have an absolutely sick bracket run and it's ended by someone who sucks at super smash bros melee, but is good at sheik. I'm tired of it. It won't make me a better player, but it might make me win against sheik or other dumbass characters.

 

[-ACE-]

So people are going nuts over these new custom controllers made by the frame guru himself (thread stickied in melee discussion), but some of the mods aren't kosher imo.

What do you guys think of notches being added to the octagonal opening the control stick pokes through? Like, primarily, notches at ESE and WSW for effortless perfect wavedashes. I'm not sure if I should say how badly I don't support this lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So people are going nuts over these new custom controllers made by the frame guru himself (thread stickied in melee discussion), but some of the mods aren't kosher imo.

What do you guys think of notches being added to the octagonal opening the control stick pokes through? Like, primarily, notches at ESE and WSW for effortless perfect wavedashes. I'm not sure if I should say how badly I don't support this lol.

No one is going to become a god overnight because of it.

 

[-ACE-]

No one is going to become a god overnight because of it.

True but extremely obvious. The same could be said for having a single button bound to perform fp perfect pseudo dash inputs lol, means nothing.

It'll benefit people that suck at wavedashing, the characters that wd the most (top tiers, IC's, luigi, etc), people who have more money to spend on controllers, but not the community as a whole. Being able to wd very nicely (shoutouts to coast) is a big skill in this game that people have taken a long time to perfect, and this basically removes it.

Genesis 1 and 2 banned modified controllers, and G3 probably will. I know we live in an age where the average player is ok with people looking at their opponent's controller to see their DI (I hate people), but this is clearly an unfair advantage imho.