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How to Practice Spacing/Other Fundamentals

victinivcreate1

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So I'm a PM Player looking to improve in Melee.

Since in PM, there are many a free things, you don't really need much fundamental practice. However, Melee has been labbed out to death and there are no real undiscovered gimmicks. You have to practice fundamentals

Now the most common things that I hear when people say fundamentals is spacing, reads, movement, punish game and edgeguard game

How would I practice all of these? Particularly the first one?

Thanks
 

leekslap

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Well I just wrote a wall of text on fundementals to teach some Toon Link scrub so here ya go: http://smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-guide.374955/ :) It's kinda all over the place lol

To practice spacing, just use Marth and practice hitting with the tip of your moves against a level 7 Fox. Why level 7? Because level 7 Foxes DI things differently every time so it doesn't mess up your combos when facing a real player.

For reading and edgeguarding, you just need to do them. Fight against a real player and learn their habits and exploit them. Learn how your character edgeguards and just try your best.

To practice the punish game is to practice your combo game. Again just focus on that aspect of your gameplay when fighting a real player.

Force yourself to wavedash 30 times or dash dancing at your character's maximum distance, and focus on that aspect when fighting a player. Simple.

It says here that you main Mewtwo, but I would never reccomend maining a low tier. You will never get any amount of really apprieciable success with a low tier or in other words, any character lower than Luigi on MY tier list. My tier list being:
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Jigglypuff
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Peach
7. Ice Climbers
8. Captain Falcon
9. Dr. Mario
10. Pikachu
11. Samus
12. Luigi ( but I wouldn't reccomend him )
rest barely matter

Try these characters until you find your main and just stick with him. I was always tempted by Falcon but I just stuck with Falco.
 

PsyRex

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I mean, there's nothing wrong with maining a low tier. You can always learn a high tier later on as a secondary/co-main.
 

Y-L

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I mean, there's nothing wrong with maining a low tier. You can always learn a high tier later on as a secondary/co-main.
He shouldn't start out with a low tier because you learn a lot of valuable skills with high tiers in terms of movement, combos, and common match up experience that you don't get with low tiers. For example I believe playing Fox benefits all your other characters for his difficulty of use that hones your precision. Falco teaches to play safe and to combo hard. It's better to play a high tier before a low tier.
 

victinivcreate1

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Oh I don't main Mewtwo in Melee competitively. Marth lol. Thinking of Fox because PM Wolf is basically ez Fox. So if I can do Fox stuff, I can indirectly train my Wolf.


Bump for more replies
 
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Spak

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Also, if you ever feel like practicing alone to hone your ledge canceling, shield dropping, or other independent tech skills, you could use the name entry glitch to get into a normal match alone with no opponent. Just make sure the game mode is time and the timer is set to is set to none, otherwise the game will instantly end after it loads.
 

leekslap

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Oh I don't main Mewtwo in Melee competitively. Marth lol. Thinking of Fox because PM Wolf is basically ez Fox. So if I can do Fox stuff, I can indirectly train my Wolf.


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Wolf is the most technical character ever with the highest chance of SDs out of any character ever. Fox doesn't have a Wolf Flash, and Wolf is the fastest faller and one of the fastest in the air. He needs more button presses than any other character basically. If they crough cancel your shine, you can't leave it to habit, you have to be ready. Doing the waveland after short hop neutral b is way harder than doing any of Falco's laser techniques.

Stick with Marth, he's a top tier so he has the tools to deal with any matchup, disadvantage or not. Fox is the most technical character in Melee, so having him as a secondary will take too much from your Marth. Try to limit your characters in PM too. Marth is an amazing secondary to Meta Knight so maybe only use one other main you are good at. I'm considering dropping Ganon completely as my success with him is limited to pools. Even my Tink is not safe even though I'm pretty good with him. I don't think I need these for any matchups my trio of Falco, Falcon, and Meta Knight can't cover.
 

Y-L

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I wouldn't say drop Fox because he's hard. If you play Fox you just have to accept that you will suck for quite a while, but it's definitely worth the time investment and will improve all of your skills.
 

BTmoney

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spacing is very, very, very different from hitting max distance aerials and normals

spacing is something complicated you're going to have to figure out through playing people (preferably better than you). basically, "spacing" is denying your opponent a space or an option through positioning + placement. more often than not you shouldn't be aiming your attacks at where your opponent is currently standing. it's more like aiming your attacks safely at an option you think your opponent would like to pick and it kind of ties into being able to read + having an understanding of the limitations of characters.

if you're not punishing someone you don't place your moves to hit exactly, you place them in a safe place that also puts you in an advantageous spot
(i.e. if I SH nair in place as falcon and they run into to me I win. If they don't I'm safe if I placed the nair far away enough to not easily be punished but close enough to also be threatening/maintain a threat/actually stop them from doing something [like running towards me/center stage] even though I never intended on committing to hit them per say. in this basic situation, I placed my move in such a way that if it goes in my favor, it was free. If it does not, I really lost nothing. And then conditioning comes into play, then you start to exert even more pressure while making even less of a commitment once you establish that in certain instances, you will cover a good number of options/the easy option your opponent would like to take. Your opponent starts thinking "what IF he nairs here/now"? Then as falcon you could just dash dance and they have to respect your nair even though you may not even have an intention of putting one out and you're just dash dancing so now you're threatening with no commitment).
that's basically it. if they're doing something bad/stupid in neutral (like limiting their own options) then you can just hit them of course.

hitting max distance attacks is also a part of this this as it is sort of a natural extension of that idea, the blue text, but primarily, to me, spacing is more about placing your moves in a correct place and it's more about where your body is + what attacks are available to you in your current state + what can your opponent do to you in a certain range while keeping the first 2 things in account and building your game around that.

it's not poking people with the tip-tip-tip of your attacks all the time although that's is a part of it (I think the understanding of positioning precedes that and is generally more practical)

a player with great spacing is basically someone who exerts a lot of safe pressure, they constrain you without actually forcing the situation. play a good puff player, someone who understands the char, and you'll understand the feeling. puffs generally don't lean their aerials all the way into people or overtly run at people, they aren't overly concerned with hitting you where you are standing at in an instance, consider why that is.

with a character like fox I find that out of neutral I think of going about things in a manner that cuts off my opponent with a low risk on my part or makes them have to approach me. fox really has mediocre range if you think about it so his "spacing" is more focused on placing his body in the correct place imo.

I hope that answered your question but once it "clicks" everything falls into place. any comments etc.?
(also, imo, this stuff is much much more important than combos or edgeguards because you need to win neutral before any of those things happen and at that point you can learn combos/follow ups/techskill and apply them well. that's way easier to learn)

secondary stuff
lastly, literally play whatever character you want. one you think you can play in a overwhelming majority of MUs. it helps very very much to have a clear main you are confident in for a game 1 situation all the time. even if your character isn't the greatest like ICs or something they are good enough for you get everything out of the game (imo the end of the "viable" chars are falcon, ICs, luigi, pikachu, samus, doc, yoshi, ganon so any of them or anyone better is good enough to be a main). The worse your character is the harder time you are going to have but one thing about mid and low tiers is that you get really, really good at understaning the dynamics of disadvantageous/advantageous situations because you're going to have to work those a lot harder.
 
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victinivcreate1

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@ BTmoney BTmoney
THAT POST is LEGIT.

This is something I can try to get a grasp of

Also to the people saying you can't play two technical characters across games, well MK is fundamentals. More or less, if I played another fundamental heavy character like Falcon for a few weeks, he'd be near the level of my MK. Wolf is the character I spend more time on now.

Wolf is a spacie.

Spacies have
-Predictable/linear recoveries
-Fast movement
-Powerful neutral control
-Shield Pressure

The last 2 are particularly important, as both Wolf and Fox can reliably nair shine, giving them big thumbs up in neutral. Their waveshine/multishine is 1 frame apart (you jump out of the shine at the exact same frame but its the extra frame in Wolf's jumpsquat that slows his shine stuff). If you can ledgedash with one you can do it with the other. This is why you can have a player dual main both Fox and Falco, because tech skill transfers over.

Also although Flash cancels/shortens are cool, I don't really use them. You don't necessarily NEED them to be a good Wolf IMO
 

leekslap

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spacing is very, very, very different from hitting max distance aerials and normals

spacing is something complicated you're going to have to figure out through playing people (preferably better than you). basically, "spacing" is denying your opponent a space or an option through positioning + placement. more often than not you shouldn't be aiming your attacks at where your opponent is currently standing. it's more like aiming your attacks safely at an option you think your opponent would like to pick and it kind of ties into being able to read + having an understanding of the limitations of characters.

if you're not punishing someone you don't place your moves to hit exactly, you place them in a safe place that also puts you in an advantageous spot
(i.e. if I SH nair in place as falcon and they run into to me I win. If they don't I'm safe if I placed the nair far away enough to not easily be punished but close enough to also be threatening/maintain a threat/actually stop them from doing something [like running towards me/center stage] even though I never intended on committing to hit them per say. in this basic situation, I placed my move in such a way that if it goes in my favor, it was free. If it does not, I really lost nothing. And then conditioning comes into play, then you start to exert even more pressure while making even less of a commitment once you establish that in certain instances, you will cover a good number of options/the easy option your opponent would like to take. Your opponent starts thinking "what IF he nairs here/now"? Then as falcon you could just dash dance and they have to respect your nair even though you may not even have an intention of putting one out and you're just dash dancing so now you're threatening with no commitment).
that's basically it. if they're doing something bad/stupid in neutral (like limiting their own options) then you can just hit them of course.

hitting max distance attacks is also a part of this this as it is sort of a natural extension of that idea, the blue text, but primarily, to me, spacing is more about placing your moves in a correct place and it's more about where your body is + what attacks are available to you in your current state + what can your opponent due to you in a certain range while keeping the first 2 things in account and building your game around that.

it's not poking people with the tip-tip-tip of your attacks all the time although that's is a part of it (I think the understanding of positioning precedes that and is generally more practical)

a player with great spacing is basically someone who exerts a lot of safe pressure, they constrain you without actually forcing the situation. play a good puff player, someone who understands the char, and you'll understand the feeling. puffs generally don't lean their aerials all the way into people or overtly run at people, they aren't overly concerned with hitting you where you are standing in at an instance, consider why that is.

with a character like fox I find that out of neutral I think of going about things in a manner that cuts off my opponent with a low risk on my part or makes them have to approach me. fox really has mediocre range if you think about it so his "spacing" is more focused on placing his body in the correct place imo.

I hope that answered your question but once it "clicks" everything falls into place. any comments etc.?
(also, imo, this stuff is much much more important than combos or edgeguards because you need to win neutral before any of those things happen and at that point you can learn combos/follow ups/techskill and apply them well. that's way easier to learn)

secondary stuff
lastly, literally play whatever character you want. one you think you can play in a overwhelming majority of MUs. it helps very very much to have a clear main you are confident in for a game 1 situation all the time. even if your character isn't the greatest like ICs or something they are good enough for you get everything out of the game (imo the end of the "viable" chars are falcon, ICs, luigi, pikachu, samus, doc, yoshi, ganon so any of them or anyone better is good enough to be a main). The worse your character is the harder time you are going to have but one thing about mid and low tiers is that you get really, really good at understaning the dynamics of disadvantageous/advantageous situations because you're going to have to work those a lot harder.
THIS. Other than the Ganon and Yoshi being viable mains. I was trying to say something like this but my wording is god awful lol just read my PM Ganon guide
@ BTmoney BTmoney
THAT POST is LEGIT.

This is something I can try to get a grasp of

Also to the people saying you can't play two technical characters across games, well MK is fundamentals. More or less, if I played another fundamental heavy character like Falcon for a few weeks, he'd be near the level of my MK. Wolf is the character I spend more time on now.

Wolf is a spacie.

Spacies have
-Predictable/linear recoveries
-Fast movement
-Powerful neutral control
-Shield Pressure

The last 2 are particularly important, as both Wolf and Fox can reliably nair shine, giving them big thumbs up in neutral. Their waveshine/multishine is 1 frame apart (you jump out of the shine at the exact same frame but its the extra frame in Wolf's jumpsquat that slows his shine stuff). If you can ledgedash with one you can do it with the other. This is why you can have a player dual main both Fox and Falco, because tech skill transfers over.

Also although Flash cancels/shortens are cool, I don't really use them. You don't necessarily NEED them to be a good Wolf IMO
I think Lucas would slightly change your definition of a spacie lol

Wolf doesn't have the best neutral IMO. His main weaknesses are his high chance of SDing, his relatively poor approach, and being the fastest faller. His neutral b is relatively limited, and he just dossn't have the best options to approach.

Yeah you are right, skill transfers over. I just used Wolf out of the blue in our weeklies and I just crapped on everybody with my delicous energems and awesome tech skill. When I was a scrub, I thought practicing shortens would help me out on my recovery a lot so I practiced it more than waveshines. Long story short, it barely helped my survival, but it made my Wolf KILLER! I was just ending stock after stock after stock( including my own ) just doing stupid things, and having a blast! Most of it was completely begginer's luck as the next time I used him, I didn't win any matches lol. I was just relying on my fundementals and shortens, but imagine if I had mastered all his techs! I think shortens and energems are the key to mastering Wolf. Chillin is perfect in every other aspect of his game, and I think that's why he hasn't won a national.

Also, flash cancel isn't a tech so that shows you are not good with him IMAO :troll: mid level technical characters make better mains IMO

Discussing PM in Melee what's wrong with us
 

victra♥

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In friendlies dont worry about winning or losing. pick one thing to work on and focus on that during friendlies for like an hour.

Need to practice spacing? Focus on spacing your moves and controlling your positioning against your opponent during friendlies.

Advice I got from Mango and it changed how I approached friendlies forever (when I want to do more than just mess around)
 
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Massive

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If you really want to learn spacing well, you might try playing Jigglypuff for a while competitively.

To be even remotely viable at a mid-level with Jigglypuff you need both good spacing and DI. Jigglypuff has no special OoS gimmicks and has no answer to shield-grabs other than not landing in grab range (and ducking vs. some chars, lol). You are forced to understand and control space if you want to win.

Spacing practice with Jigglypuff (or anyone, really) carries over to literally every character in the game, and learning Jigglypuff style DI dramatically boosts your survivability with all characters.
 

Wiz P

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If you really want to learn spacing well, you might try playing Jigglypuff for a while competitively.

To be even remotely viable at a mid-level with Jigglypuff you need both good spacing and DI. Jigglypuff has no special OoS gimmicks and has no answer to shield-grabs other than not landing in grab range (and ducking vs. some chars, lol). You are forced to understand and control space if you want to win.

Spacing practice with Jigglypuff (or anyone, really) carries over to literally every character in the game, and learning Jigglypuff style DI dramatically boosts your survivability with all characters.
I am gonna try this ... Even though I main Math hehehehe
 

leekslap

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If you really want to learn spacing well, you might try playing Jigglypuff for a while competitively.

To be even remotely viable at a mid-level with Jigglypuff you need both good spacing and DI. Jigglypuff has no special OoS gimmicks and has no answer to shield-grabs other than not landing in grab range (and ducking vs. some chars, lol). You are forced to understand and control space if you want to win.

Spacing practice with Jigglypuff (or anyone, really) carries over to literally every character in the game, and learning Jigglypuff style DI dramatically boosts your survivability with all characters.
This advice is pretty meh

Regardless of what character you are using, good spacing and DI are a must. Jiggs only teaches you survival DI; she's floaty enough to escape most combos regardless of DI. Plus she is floaty, so if victini switches to his Meta Knight who has to DI everything up, it might give him some bad habits as different DI works for different characters. Maybe you were just trying to say to use a fundementals only character, but it came out wrong, that's for sure.

The best fundementals only character by far is Captain Falcon. Being good with Falcon makes you a better player overall. You have to make the best of your recovery, your DI needs to be amazing, your spacing really helps with combos, etc.
 

Jackson

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Also, if you ever feel like practicing alone to hone your ledge canceling, shield dropping, or other independent tech skills, you could use the name entry glitch to get into a normal match alone with no opponent. Just make sure the game mode is time and the timer is set to is set to none, otherwise the game will instantly end after it loads.
I've done this before and it seems pretty effective. I just like to practice movement and stuff around the stage.

I definitely need to work on my Falco spacing, but I'm not sure quite how except practice against my buddies.
 
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leekslap

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I've done this before and it seems pretty effective. I just like to practice movement and stuff around the stage.

I definitely need to work on my Falco spacing, but I'm not sure quite how except practice against my buddies.
F tilt, nair, and bair are among the most effective to space with Falco. Good lasering requires good stage positioning unless you are on FD. Whether you are in, out, or in between of your opponent's range depends on whether you want to wall, bait, or approach. You also need to work on spacing your shield pressure to either be in range to shine grab or bait a whiff. You also have to be a good dash dancer and not annoyed to constantly wavedash to readjust spacing. I'd also reccomend doing the approach SHL to spaced f tilt. Works wonders and is guarenteed.
 

Jackson

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F tilt, nair, and bair are among the most effective to space with Falco. Good lasering requires good stage positioning unless you are on FD. Whether you are in, out, or in between of your opponent's range depends on whether you want to wall, bait, or approach. You also need to work on spacing your shield pressure to either be in range to shine grab or bait a whiff. You also have to be a good dash dancer and not annoyed to constantly wavedash to readjust spacing. I'd also reccomend doing the approach SHL to spaced f tilt. Works wonders and is guarenteed.
good advice, thank you. I'll try that approach.
 

Massive

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This advice is pretty meh

Regardless of what character you are using, good spacing and DI are a must. Jiggs only teaches you survival DI; she's floaty enough to escape most combos regardless of DI. Plus she is floaty, so if victini switches to his Meta Knight who has to DI everything up, it might give him some bad habits as different DI works for different characters. Maybe you were just trying to say to use a fundementals only character, but it came out wrong, that's for sure.
No, I'm saying to use puff. Puff is a great introduction to DI and more importantly spacing, because both are downright required to play at even a "beat all my friends" level.

The best fundementals only character by far is Captain Falcon. Being good with Falcon makes you a better player overall. You have to make the best of your recovery, your DI needs to be amazing, your spacing really helps with combos, etc.
Being good with any character makes you a better player overall.

Falcon requires "ok" spacing mechanics but nearly perfect execution to play well.
You can faceroll uair combos all day with mediocre spacing and get away with it, and at lower-mid levels of play, spacing's importance won't be as visible for Falcon. You can nair approach, dair on shield, knee to gentleman, or dashdance bait with even average spacing and these strategies will work because of falcon's overwhelming speed and relatively safe approach options.

Falcon's weight definitely means that survival DI is less important and combo DI is more important, however that's not necessarily a huge benefit as combo DI is not something static like survival DI. Combos in smash games are (mostly) freeform, with some bread and butter repeats you frequently see, however these are character specific and situational i.e. learning to DI falcon's dthrow on Shiek does not carry over to Fox. This makes combo DI less important as general game knowledge.
Survival DI, on the other hand, will work as well on Bowser as it will on Fox, so there's good reason to practice it.

I am a strong advocate of cross training for improving your game, and Falcon is a good character to practice with in general (especially for things like techchasing and dashdancing). As far as practicing general spacing and DI are concerned though, some Puff will serve almost everyone very well.
 
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leekslap

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No, I'm saying to use puff. Puff is a great introduction to DI and more importantly spacing, because both are downright required to play at even a "beat all my friends" level.


Being good with any character makes you a better player overall.

Falcon requires "ok" spacing mechanics but nearly perfect execution to play well.
You can faceroll uair combos all day with mediocre spacing and get away with it, and at lower-mid levels of play, spacing's importance won't be as visible for Falcon. You can nair approach, dair on shield, knee to gentleman, or dashdance bait with even average spacing and these strategies will work because of falcon's overwhelming speed and relatively safe approach options.

Falcon's weight definitely means that survival DI is less important and combo DI is more important, however that's not necessarily a huge benefit as combo DI is not something static like survival DI. Combos in smash games are (mostly) freeform, with some bread and butter repeats you frequently see, however these are character specific and situational i.e. learning to DI falcon's dthrow on Shiek does not carry over to Fox. This makes combo DI less important as general game knowledge.
Survival DI, on the other hand, will work as well on Bowser as it will on Fox, so there's good reason to practice it.

I am a strong advocate of cross training for improving your game, and Falcon is a good character to practice with in general (especially for things like techchasing and dashdancing). As far as practicing general spacing and DI are concerned though, some Puff will serve almost everyone very well.
Then that means spacies are THE character to practice with for DI and recovery.
 

Massive

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Then that means spacies are THE character to practice with for DI and recovery.
Exactly, especially Falco since his recovery is so mediocre compared to Fox.
You have to survival DI to get back from a lot of things with Falco.

There's no wrong character for (almost) any of this stuff, some are just more forgiving in teaching it than others.
 
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If you don't have anyone to play will on a reliable basis, playing Street Fighter online can help teach you prediction. That games asks its players to make explicit reads. Use overheads or grabs to counter block low. Jump so you don't get grabbed. Block shoryukens so that you can punish your opponents when the fall to the ground. Just some examples. 3rd Strike is the best SF and it has the best net code. The community is really active too. Practicing Melee alone is boring
 
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