How To Play On Green Greens (and why it should be a counterpick)

[Amazing Ampharos]

I love Green Greens. I think TOs around here are banning it more largely because of some shenanigans I've pulled here which aren't really unfair but are really powerful (definitely at least 60-40 G&W wins against Meta Knight, very strong counterpick that puts MK at a big disadvantage).

Anyway, Green Greens is the hands down best counterpick for Mr. Game & Watch in my opinion, and for those who have a chance, I'd like to explain a bit more clearly how to exploit it.

The strategy to win is a defensive one, and it's all about where you are protected. Mr. Game & Watch has an invincible up special that basically makes him unstoppable as he moves upward; overall the only things that are really safe to come right down on him predictably with are things like Kirby's Stone (which tend to have other issues that make it not so great to rely on a lot). The blocks form a wall that tends to be pretty hard to move over as well. Put it together. Just stand on a side platform (when you have a lead) and wait. If they come over the blocks, use Fire, hit them, and run to the other side and wait there. This works against all characters, though characters who don't have any really special way to hit below them (something to throw or something like Stone) and who have poor horizontal air speed have the worst time dealing with it. Guys like Meta Knight and King Dedede have major issues here to this.

This is obviously not instant win so I'll go into how to stop it. Some characters simply camp back and better. Snake is the easiest case; he can just blow up the blocks with c4 and grenades and then keep raining explosives on you. Olimar can use his fsmash to clear out blocks and then rain pikmin on you, and he can be clever with how pikmin are kinda glitchy with the blocks (some colors get stuck on them via pikmin toss) to be really obnoxious. Both Links, Peach, and Diddy Kong to an extent can rain stuff on you from above (Peach, alternatively, could cycle turnips until she gets a beam sword which is so disjointed it will let her take out a wall of blocks super fast).

In general though, you just have to try to destroy the walls of blocks efficiently enough to approach from the side. This is still not bad for Mr. Game & Watch because he can use the opportunity to sneak in turtle or fair, and he can play defensively while the blocks respawn (it's pretty fast). I'm not convinced it's super overpowered, but it's very good, especially in some matchups.

Also, a last bit, if you're down as Mr. Game & Watch and they are camping the sides, you can easily destroy the blocks and pressure then with Chef. The platforms are lined up really well for that sort of trickery. Do watch out for the wind though; it can blow you into dropping bomb blocks if you are careless. You might not force a good opponent to approach just because of Chef, but you will force them back so you can safely key their shield (shield pushback will put them on the ledge or off-stage).

Camping aside, the stage is also good for Mr. Game & Watch because it's so small that his smashes kill super low, and he can have some fun on the ledges if he wants. It's pretty easy for him to detonate bomb blocks safely with his huge disjoints, and the apples are just generally fun for him.

This is also a general argument for why King Dedede really doesn't make the stage ban-worthy. If a DDD player picks this stage and the opponent goes Mr. Game & Watch, it sucks big time for him (he just hard CP'd himself). I also do generally feel that this stage isn't just "comparatively bad" for Meta Knight but actually "really quite terrible" for him. His type of mobility just isn't what this stage rewards at all.

 

[T0MMY]

"Green Greens promotes camping". I've heard this from a number of people, usually ROB mains. t0mmy told me that he wouldn't ban Green Greens because, if I took him there, he'd camp me. He camped me. He went offstage and I fair'd him and killed him at some stupid low percentage. Jamnt0ast has made similar statements about the stage.

Actually, I think you missed your F-air and a random bomb block blew up and killed me at a low percent. And yes, it still promoted me camping you.
That was the same day I ran the clock out on Mr. Bojangles and LOL'd at WA for allowing bad stages while Valdens was trying to coach him into getting around the camping.
You got camped and the non-competitive aspect of random dumb luck killed me and you want to use that as a reason why TO's have to worry about their tournaments running over time because they allowed dumb stages like this... no. There's a reason why WA got rid of Green Greens and OR got rid of it a long time prior and finally you guys caught up with us. :^)

Oh, and let me get you quoted again just so you know how you crushed your own argument:

t0mmy told me that he wouldn't ban Green Greens because, if I took him there, he'd camp me. He camped me.

Green Greens is the best stage in the game and should be legal.

Think about your arguments IRL
Premeditated murder is the best crime in the world and should be legal. X^D

 

[deepseadiva]

It's interesting how much faster the Brawl community is to ban things (and yes, I appreciate the irony of this statement in light of my writing the MK pro-ban argument on SWF).

I'm sorry but, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

*wipes away tear*

Masky, I think I've seen an exploding apple and i've had people mention them, but I've never actually been hit by one despite playing on the stage constantly. Any idea how much knockback they do?

I'd actually consider the TNT Apples to be the best argument against the stage. I've been hit by them once or twice - they have the same knockback as the bomb-blocks. Nothing outrageous, but still random.

 

[Praxis]

Actually, I think you missed your F-air and a random bomb block blew up and killed me at a low percent. And yes, it still promoted me camping you.
That was the same day I ran the clock out on Mr. Bojangles and LOL'd at WA for allowing bad stages while Valdens was trying to coach him into getting around the camping.

Um, B0jangles is a Donkey Kong. Of COURSE you can camp him. xD
What stage? Greens or Japes?

You got camped and the non-competitive aspect of random dumb luck killed me and you want to use that as a reason why TO's have to worry about their tournaments running over time because they allowed dumb stages like this... no. There's a reason why WA got rid of Green Greens and OR got rid of it a long time prior and finally you guys caught up with us. :^)

Washington never banned it, just Jamn did at a tournament he hosted.

We've never had an issue, and Oregon never had an issue either, you just banned it right at the start.

You camped a DK, big whoop. LOL

 

[SuSa]

I wasn't able to get Green Greens legal, so I CP'd RC against a MK instead.

Lulz followed.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What a great thread. I mean... I think it's great. Also I <3 Praxis for his views on this stage and wish to e-hug him.

 

[Synthe]

well i never did like this board, so it really dont bother me

 

[Shaya]

Question (Sorry if this has been brought up, cp or link a response if it has):

Due to the nature of the stage:
Blocks that cover the height of a platform (making a wall), hence if there are bomb blocks in their composition cannot be 'hit' through without being damaged...

Then you're outside of this, and the opponent with the percent lead is inside the walls, with the only approach option being from above. With two platforms covering the sides near the walls, making projectile drops and aerials less effective, and smash in general always having the lower ground being advantagous; how do a lot of characters fathomly approach?

My region used to have a very open perception of stages; but it's been dwindled down due to two major factors:
1. Run away factor (reduction of approach options by opponent running away excessively: e.g. Norfair)
2. Camp factor (reduction of approach options exceptionally by keeping still - Majority of characters cannot overcome this without significant damage)

It's why I think stages like Distant Planet (slope under main platform) and Corneria (right side of the stage) should be banned, and it was the same reason why I thought Green Greens should be banned too.

I don't have the percent lead, I'm not in the middle, and because of the walls having bombs my ability to get to the centre is... crap...

 

[Hive Mind]

Good thread I agree GG should not be banned. I really think only the bombs are the problems, but the upward recovery thing makes it a great counterpick.
No ban for GG plz.

 

[MK26]

Or you can play Brawl+, with 2/3rds speed (stuff spawns slower) and wider blastzones...but GGs is legit anyways.

Also, if your opponent mains D3 and cp's you here, just pick a character that can't be cg'd...or you can just play Brawl+, where we got rid of the chaingrab. Win-win both ways, except if you main Dedede

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Well, after a bit of testing I can honestly say that this stage definitely isn't nearly as "********" as I had previously assumed it to be.

It's definitely got a fair amount of ridiculousness to it, but after a bit of practice it certainly gets easier to avoid / predict what is going to happen.

Overall I think I have to agree that the community's harshness toward this stage is a bit unwarranted, and we have all probably said "screw Green Greens" without actually giving it a chance.


I definitely like the element of it being a not-so-great stage for Metaknight, though it's not a major plus in my opinion. As MK, you can still wait for apples to fall and use them to your advantage. If anything, it really forces aggressive characters to play patient, which is a nice change of pace.



I did a fair amount of testing with my DeDeDe vs Futurewrestler's ROB and I don't feel like it is particularly swayed towards either character, despite ROB's camping advantages and DeDeDe's chain throw infinite advantages. It seemed very even most of the time, since each character has his own huge advantage. I'd probably have to put it slightly in DeDeDe's favor since he does have a little easier time avoiding spam than he would on say, Final Destination.

Interesting notes from me playing my Falco here: I noticed that his illusion only goes through one layer of yellow blocks, so that prevents him from Illusion spamming like he does on Jungle Japes. One of the upsides for Falco though is that if he is camping on either of the end platforms, his standing Lasers go exactly even with the ground on the middle platform, so he can easily switch between shorthop double, short hop single, or grounded lasers for a slightly more effective spamming game than some stages.

Neither of those things is a major plus or minus, just some interesting observations.

Also, you appear to be right about the d-tilt infinites not really being an issue (at least ROB's and Metaknights, who I tested). DeDeDe's chaingrab can also be stopped by the wind or an appropriately placed explosive block.

I wasn't able to test this with a good Game and Watch or a good Snake, and ASC853's Olimar wasn't available when I was testing this, so I still have to say that I am unsure of how "broken" this stage actually is for those characters. I can only go off the common sentiment that they all have huge advantages here, though I have little experience against them on Green Greens.



So, in my limited playtesting of this over the last 2 weeks, while I still can't say that it for sure deserves to be a full counter and not a counter-ban, I have to say I am much more open to this stage being on the list of possible stages at a tournament.


Again, good work, Praxis. Perhaps with a bit more character diversity in my own experience with this stage, I will agree with you more fully... or perhaps not Time will tell.

 

[T0MMY]

Um, B0jangles is a Donkey Kong. Of COURSE you can camp him. xD
What stage? Greens or Japes?

Both.

Washington never banned it, just Jamn did at a tournament he hosted.

We've never had an issue, and Oregon never had an issue either, you just banned it right at the start.

Maybe you should talk to GC Guy about that? LOL. His is pretty much the only opinion that matters in WA, and he agrees with most of the things I do, including stage selection.

[/QUOTE]You camped a DK, big whoop. LOL[/QUOTE]
Do I need to quote you again about you being camped there? lol
That stage is dying, you're not going to be able to save it. Bwahahaha.

 

[lax guy5]

Agreed. 99%. I didn't agree with the last statement I WILL say that Green Greens is ONE of the best stages! And awesome counterpick to use 'cuz almost no one practices on it and if YOU have, you now have gained an advantage over your opponent.

Oh, and by the way, Praxis, Spokane's like my favorite city ever. (My hometown.) If I ever go to a tourney there I'll be lookin' for ya!

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

As gay as I think the stage is, you do bring up some good points.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Green Greens is cool if you ban mah fatass from it. =3

No, just the standing infinite.

Anyway, I never gotten an exploding apple. 1 out of 3 times, I get a healing apple that restores a small amount of damage.

I support making this stage legal. It will help keep variety up.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is banned? I always had it as counterpick in friendlies... Huh. Go figure.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't really have anything to add. I just wanna agree with this thread again. lol

 

[DUCKAtl]

if the bombs wernt there you could just be agressive, but since they are i camp

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Honestly, I don't see how any state can actually justify banning this stage other then from some weak argument and refusal to change their ways.

We use this stage in Texas (like stated in OP), I have never seen a problem with any of the matches played there (same with Pirate Ship, but thats a different topic...).

Promoting camping isn't a reason to ban a stage (lol Falco on Jungle Japes. You want camping? Check out that combo). Close boundaries defiantly isn't a reason to ban a stage. If boundaries play a fact in what gets banned, any stage that doesn't have the exact same boundaries as FD needs to be banned for allowing earlier or later KOs.

Everyone knows where the apples spawn, and the tree shakes right before they come out. The bombs have already been explained. If wind is bannable, ban PS2 pls.

Stop johning and allow a perfectly legal stage to be legal please.

 

[haloman800]

You've convinced me to add this to my legal counterpicks at my next tournament.

I love the stage, but I always thought it should be banned, until now.

 

[fkacyan]

Honestly, I don't see how any state can actually justify banning this stage other then from some weak argument and refusal to change their ways.

We use this stage in Texas (like stated in OP), I have never seen a problem with any of the matches played there (same with Pirate Ship, but thats a different topic...).

Promoting camping isn't a reason to ban a stage (lol Falco on Jungle Japes. You want camping? Check out that combo). Close boundaries defiantly isn't a reason to ban a stage. If boundaries play a fact in what gets banned, any stage that doesn't have the exact same boundaries as FD needs to be banned for allowing earlier or later KOs.

Everyone knows where the apples spawn, and the tree shakes right before they come out. The bombs have already been explained. If wind is bannable, ban PS2 pls.

Stop johning and allow a perfectly legal stage to be legal please.

Texas also has MK banned.

 

[Night-san]

Very valid points in this, that's all I can say. I really think that GG doesn't warrant a ban; as it's already been stated, you know when the apples are going to appear. If you're afraid that they're going to 'asplode, stay away from them. -shrugshrug-

 

[MagicJosh]

Yea I totally agree that GG should be a counterpick. I just got from a tourney where it is banned, but we decided to play on it anyway, and I ended up three stocking because of having so many more options than most other stages. Then the guy flipped out about it was so cheap and unfair.

Green Greens is legit.

 

[fkacyan]

Yea I totally agree that GG should be a counterpick. I just got from a tourney where it is banned, but we decided to play on it anyway, and I ended up three stocking because of having so many more options than most other stages. Then the guy flipped out about it was so cheap and unfair.

Green Greens is legit.

A matchup went from you losing to three-stocking and you make the argument that this is a balanced counterpick?

Re-read what you said and find the logical fallacy.

 

[MagicJosh]

I do see how that could seem a little unbalanced, but it there was also a different MU going on (G&W vs. Pika) and I just knew that MU very well, and play on green greens often enough to know how to abuse it.
Obviously if we stuck with the same MU, picked GG, and then turned it all around to three stock him, there is something wrong there.

I didn't mean to make it sound brokenly unfair, sorry

kk

 

[fkacyan]

I do see how that could seem a little unbalanced, but it there was also a different MU going on (G&W vs. Pika) and I just knew that MU very well, and play on green greens often enough to know how to abuse it.
Obviously if we stuck with the same MU, picked GG, and then turned it all around to three stock him, there is something wrong there.

I didn't mean to make it sound brokenly unfair, sorry

Refer back to earlier in the thread where it was described in exact terms how the stage was broken for G&W.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Texas also has MK banned.

No we don't.

Only Houston did, and only for a while. He's now unbanned. He wasn't even banned every tournament when Houston did ban him, and I think most of the time he was legal in doubles. You're thinking New Mexico.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

For a minute I thought he was using sarcasm to show it being UNFAIR lol

 

[fkacyan]

No we don't.

Only Houston did, and only for a while. He's now unbanned. He wasn't even banned every tournament when Houston did ban him, and I think most of the time he was legal in doubles. You're thinking New Mexico.

HOBO was the biggest, most regularly attended tourney in the state. At least, it's the only one anybody from North Atlantic has ever bothered attending, which is saying something.

Also, he's legal but as far as I know he can't CP to CP stages.

In other news, just because it works in your state does not mean it's a good counterpick.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That was WHOBO, and they came BECAUSE MK was banned. They wanted to try out a tournament with MK banned out of curiosity. If MK had been legal, they wouldn't have showed up. >_> Except Inui, but that's because he has family down here or something like that.

FSs in San Antonio get out of state people, from as far as California IIRC. HOBOs aren't the only big tournaments, they are simply the most known and most advertised. They are also big because Austin and Dallas aren't that far away from Houston, while someplace like San Antonio or El Paso is a lot longer drive. HOBOs often effectively three city's worth of smashers at any given time, provided of course a driver doesn't back out or something like that.

And if it does work well in our state, the state with one of the, if not the best G&W, who is apparently "broken" on this stage...that kinda means it'll work anyplace. >_> Which means people need to grow balls and realize that the term COUNTER Pick does not mean "Nearly neutral". If multiple people gain advantages from the stage, thats a good CP, not a bad CP. In your area, there is nearly no point in CPing. Very few match ups in your area benefit from CPing. You might as well just stick to neutrals, which is not how the game is meant to be played competitively. MK doesn't have to worry about a single stage there, all but FD greatly favor him. ICs basically don't get screwed over on the CP, making them stronger. Snake has all of his usuals there. Diddy is less likely to be "screwed" on the CP, even though there aren't many stages that heavily hinder him. But besides all of that?

It's not "What stage will give me the best advantage", it's "What stage has the better music" when CPing the majority of the time.

 

[fkacyan]

That was WHOBO, and they came BECAUSE MK was banned. They wanted to try out a tournament with MK banned out of curiosity. If MK had been legal, they wouldn't have showed up. >_> Except Inui, but that's because he has family down here or something like that.

FSs in San Antonio get out of state people, from as far as California IIRC. HOBOs aren't the only big tournaments, they are simply the most known and most advertised. They are also big because Austin and Dallas aren't that far away from Houston, while someplace like San Antonio or El Paso is a lot longer drive. HOBOs often effectively three city's worth of smashers at any given time, provided of course a driver doesn't back out or something like that.

And if it does work well in our state, the state with one of the, if not the best G&W, who is apparently "broken" on this stage...that kinda means it'll work anyplace. >_> Which means people need to grow balls and realize that the term COUNTER Pick does not mean "Nearly neutral". If multiple people gain advantages from the stage, thats a good CP, not a bad CP. In your area, there is nearly no point in CPing. Very few match ups in your area benefit from CPing. You might as well just stick to neutrals, which is not how the game is meant to be played competitively. MK doesn't have to worry about a single stage there, all but FD greatly favor him. ICs basically don't get screwed over on the CP, making them stronger. Snake has all of his usuals there. Diddy is less likely to be "screwed" on the CP, even though there aren't many stages that heavily hinder him. But besides all of that?

It's not "What stage will give me the best advantage", it's "What stage has the better music" when CPing the majority of the time.

There is a difference between a matchup becoming better because of a stage, and a character becoming better because of a stage. If a character wins all of his matchups universally on a stage, the stage is broken in favor of that character.

Also, go ahead and just repeat OS's arguments. He still hasn't given any actual evidence, and I doubt you can either.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I haven't even read his arguments. >_> He's a joke like Inui, neither should be in the backroom as they both think too highly of their own, very wrong opinions and never accept the fact other people can be correct, or the fact neither of them are as mindblowing at Brawl like they seem to think. How can I repeat the arguments if I don't read them?

And G&W doesn't win all of his matchups universally on Green Greens. Nor does Ike or G&W on Pirate Ship, ect. Nor can you prove that he'll win every single time. It's beatable. People simply refuse to think outside of the box. If it's ain't circling, a cave of life, or permanent walk-offs, the stage really doesn't have a reason to be banned. It's simply people being unable to think and crying about gayness in a game where nearly any character can be gay on any stage. And if gayness was bannable in Brawl, nearly everyone in S tier or SS tier would need to go. And probably a good portion of A tier.

 

[Overswarm]

Psh. Overswarm is an act and you have been fooled.


But seriously, GG should be legal. For the sole reason that it has been legal and used in major areas and has shown to have no negative effect, one can presume its legality. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Praxis]

And if it does work well in our state, the state with one of the, if not the best G&W, who is apparently "broken" on this stage...that kinda means it'll work anyplace. >_>.

Not to mention that I've beaten Texas G&W's on that stage

 

[fkacyan]

Psh. Overswarm is an act and you have been fooled.


But seriously, GG should be illegal. For the sole reason that it has been illegal and unused in major areas and has shown to have a negative effect when legal, one can presume its legality. Innocent until proven guilty.

Region-specific information is region specific.

Prove its legality, don't try to let the other regions do your work for you.

Though, based on how much data you've posted in other threads it's like all you do it hope people have the information to back you up.

Not to mention that I've beaten Texas G&W's on that stage

Didn't block-camp hard enough, then.

 

[Overswarm]

Region-specific information is region specific.

Prove its legality, don't try to let the other regions do your work for you.

Though, based on how much data you've posted in other threads it's like all you do it hope people have the information to back you up.

What are you talking about?

You're saying Green Greens should be banned because other regions haven't had it legal to show it could have problems?


All stages are inherently legal. You need evidence from tournament play to ban a stage. Generally the really "zany" stages like spear pillar get banned with little to no tournament data, but we have the advantage of showing Green Greens being legal in WA, the south, and a huge chunk of the midwest and it has showed to have no negative consequences. Claiming that it is merely regional specific is irrelevant to the discussion; there's no possibility of it NOT being regional specific, as others banned it prematurely.

 

[fkacyan]

What are you talking about?

You're saying Green Greens should be banned because other regions haven't had it legal to show it could have problems?


All stages are inherently legal. You need evidence from tournament play to ban a stage. Generally the really "zany" stages like spear pillar get banned with little to no tournament data, but we have the advantage of showing Green Greens being legal in WA, the south, and a huge chunk of the midwest and it has showed to have no negative consequences. Claiming that it is merely regional specific is irrelevant to the discussion; there's no possibility of it NOT being regional specific, as others banned it prematurely.

I'm saying you're ignoring the possibility that the regions / TOs who have banned it have extremely legitimate reasons for doing so.

Very early on matches in NJ on this stage devolved to ROB / GaW camping on the far end of the stage, ROB because laser wasn't stopped by blocks and GaW because the blocks + his upB make him unapproachable.