How to balance L-canceling?

[guedes the brawler]

50% Lag reduction is good. If you opt not to use it... there's absolutely no advantage to it, meaning you better L-Cancel everything you can, right?


what kind of "punishment" for L-canceling could've been done to make it balanced? Having a limit of uses over a small ammount of time? decreasing the Lag redution after every use? Maybe that again, but with a restoration system like shields have? Dealing a small bit of damage to yourself by using it? Decreasing a bit of your shield for using it?

i know this would change a lot of things in Melee and PM, but just the same, what would be fairer to do with it, if it HAD to have some sort of drawback?

 

[DrinkingFood]

your text is unreadable in Ruby
this topic has been done to death, even post-mortem
can we just like, lock this

 

[arcticfox8]

How about instead of balancing, let's start breaking? Lets bring back Z-Cancelling.

 

[guedes the brawler]

your text is unreadable in Ruby
this topic has been done to death, even post-mortem
can we just like, lock this

oh. sorry, i just copy-pasted from my post on gamefaqs, i found it was weird, but i don't knw it was unreadable. nor that it was idscussed to death already, i'd like some input on the ideas i gave,

 

[GaretHax]

IIRC any discussion on manual versus automatic L-canceling would result in an auto-lock of the thread, or infractions if it went on too long. Pretty sure that was in the OP at some point. Honestly light shielding and shield DI can make L-canceling seem like a much sounder mechanic since they allow the defending player to make an attempt at throwing the other player's timing off, but the argument is pretty ambiguous for both sides and always boils down to some people liking it, and some thinking it is pointless. (Which in a way it is, however that brings up what criteria we use to judge pointless tech's or the difficulty in performing them, and in a game like smash that gets pretty messy pretty fast. Just do a quick search of the original PM thread, you will find far more than you would want or need on the topic, and that isn't even 1% of the likely endless debate that went on in the backroom)

 

[guedes the brawler]

got it. i never though about it being automatic, there's no need to do that.

 

[Burnsy]

Back when it was determined that L-Cancelling discussion was against the rules, wasn't deviating from Melee's more questionable mechanics more of a concern than it is today? P:M has gained more notoriety and acceptance from the community as it's "own game" that is simply "influenced" by Melee, rather than attempting to recreate 1:1 anything that is possible to do so.

My point is, now that the games direction has changed a bit (spacie nerfs whaaaaat?) and we've grown as a community, is it not possible to re-evaluate our options here? If someone wouldn't play this game because of automatic L-cancelling, they probably have dozens of other personal issues with the project that would keep them from taking it seriously.

 

[Paradoxium]

They banned L-canceling discussion? Why?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Like I said, it's been done to death and never gets anywhere
it's not a big deal either way to be quite honest, but it gets made into a big deal

 

[MLGF]

TC is right, L-Cancelling is a huge problem. We need to change it now... as in it's current state it is way to weak.
So I propose L-Cancelling now has a hitbox the side of Ike's U-Smash and has the kill power of Jigglypuff's down B.
I know, I know, I'm a genius.

 

[Strong Badam]

They banned L-canceling discussion? Why?

This was back when MLG owned Smashboards and the only allowed discussion of PM was in a single thread. L-canceling discussion would go on for weeks without end and distract people from actually, you know, discussing Project M. Since we got our own subforum, it isn't really a concern anymore. You're free to discuss L-Canceling and the merits it has as a game mechanic as you'd like.

 

[JOE!]

Just food for thought:

What are the pros / cons for Lcanceling as it is currently?

What are the pros / cons of automatic Lcanceling?

What are the pros / cons of Lcanceling having a drawback attached such as limited use or weaker attacks or such?

 

[Ogopogo]

Are there cons to l-canceling as it is now?

Auto l-canceling might lower the skill ceiling, or whatever it's called.

And I'm too tired to think of anything for the third one.

 

[CORY]

not really pro/con, but as mentioned earlier, the meta for lcancelling (at least in melee) was shield directing and light(ish) shielding to throw off lcancel timing. you don't really see that except occasionally at high level play, though, since shield directing is very precise and needs small movements. light shielding's not so hard to work with in melee, but it also gives you slightly more blockstun (is this correct?) so it's not so easy to take advantage of the missed lcancel. it's also not an option in pm.

 

[Lethalx]

This is dumb

 

[JOE!]

Are there cons to l-canceling as it is now?

think more like, pros/cons to the implementation rather than if there is actually a con to performing an Lcancel. Is there any bad effect it has for gameplay in it's current state?

Auto l-canceling might lower the skill ceiling, or whatever it's called.

At higher levels, Lcanceling is said to be pretty much second nature, no? What'd be the big difference?

And I'm too tired to think of anything for the third one.

More or less: what would you do to make manual Lcancel more interactive?

not really pro/con, but as mentioned earlier, the meta for lcancelling (at least in melee) was shield directing and light(ish) shielding to throw off lcancel timing. you don't really see that except occasionally at high level play, though, since shield directing is very precise and needs small movements. light shielding's not so hard to work with in melee, but it also gives you slightly more blockstun (is this correct?) so it's not so easy to take advantage of the missed lcancel. it's also not an option in pm.

This is pretty much the only argument I've heard in it's favor, and even then it only shows up once in a blue moon and it being capitalized on is in yet another blue moon it seems...

 

[Smash John]

i'm a little on both sides of this argument...

having auto L-cancels would have the effect of lowering both the skill floor and skill ceiling. i'm all for lowering skill floors to make it easier to get into the game, but i've always been a fan of high skill ceilings too. the press of a button to make a move safe seems so arbitrary and pointless yet a lot of people (myself included) take pride in knowing they can do tech skillz and it just feels good to know you nailed a complicated combo.

but does that make it a good thing to keep? does the press being completely arbitrary make it a bad thing to keep? overall, i think i'm behind making the game deeper by adding decision making to L-cancelling. some properties that would make you not necessarily want to L-cancel in every situation. what those properties could be tho are completely beyond me...

 

[Ogopogo]

At higher levels, Lcanceling is said to be pretty much second nature, no? What'd be the big difference?

I certainly don't get it 100% of the time.

 

[Kankato]

Hello, new player here. I find l canceling to be both a reward for pressing a button at the right time and a punishment for missing, depending on how much you rely on the speed it grants. It's almost a rite-of-passage into a faster gameplay style, as l-cancels quicken the match and really solidifies combos. Think of it as a step up from the kid's table.

 

[Nausicaa]

I killed PP in doubles friendlies because I dashed up to him and Shielded, throwing off his LC timing on a N-Air approach, and I haven't played him much at all (those few doubles friendlies and that's it), so even in a super-small sample size of top-level play, it has happened to some significance (a stock).
Get@LCing bringing good memories of fun personal-glory moments due to matches involving popular community public figures.

It doesn't happen often in top level play, but a missed LC on an aerial that's used in a fashion that missing an LC will be devastating, happens. Think of it like Mario going D-Throw > Cape on someone making them miss the tech for a free F-Smash or something. Those weird intricate timing-things play as great a factor as the big combos in a flushed-meta-game.

A bonus/reason for NOT LCing would be weird. Is that even currently code-able? haha

 

[dRevan64]

Nausicaa's post basically explains why I think l cancelling is fine as is, variable shield positioning can actually change the timing of an input and someone can screw up, missing a cancel or holding it too long and light shielding. It's a really small tactical decision, but it is relevant enough that I don't think changing l cancelling as such is prudent.

At the same time, having a brief grounded hitbox on a non-l cancelled aerial could be pretty cool. Approaching with a dair (say, falco's) and hitting a shield would give you two options: cancelling the aerial and being able to shine or grab or whatever option you prefer (probably shine) while not cancelling could give you potential to shield stab with the grounded hitbox or change the timing of pressure. I'm not sure how exactly that would be balanced, but the idea is interesting in its own right.

 

[Phaiyte]

It already has a punishment for not using it by forcing you to sit there for the whole end lag duration.

nor that it was idscussed to death already, i'd like some input on the ideas i gave,

There's a search button that's basically in your face in every page you visit on this forum.

 

[CORY]

It doesn't happen often in top level play, but a missed LC on an aerial that's used in a fashion that missing an LC will be devastating, happens. Think of it like Mario going D-Throw > Cape on someone making them miss the tech for a free F-Smash or something. Those weird intricate timing-things play as great a factor as the big combos in a flushed-meta-game.

actually, related to this:

getting hit while trying to lcancel can lead to a missed tech input, which means you can't tech for the next 40 frames or whatnot. another incidental side effect to lcancelling.

 

[Nausicaa]

^AKA the Mario Cape thing I mentioned, but the mechanics of how it works.
ty for elaboration.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I like Wave Kusanagi's idea of replacing the "Score Display" option or something with an "Automatic L-Cancelling" option, similar to the buffer option. With it, new players could get a feel for why learning to L-cancel is worth it.
Then people could host tourneys with the option on until it slowly becomes the default.

 

[Nausicaa]

Good luck programming something that times LC's against my Shielding-your-aerial-to-throw-it-off-mind-games.

A 'NOT-LAG-CANCELLED' Aerial, should allow the ability to Jump on landing, Bowser Brawl Side-B Hop style.
Instead of L/R, you press X/Y, and you auto-hop your DJ instead of LC the land-lag.
Yeah?

 

[Burnsy]

So everyone would have QAC aerials? Haha

 

[Nausicaa]

QAC Knees all day...

 

[gnosis]

actually, related to this:

getting hit while trying to lcancel can lead to a missed tech input, which means you can't tech for the next 40 frames or whatnot. another incidental side effect to lcancelling.

In Melee this is not an issue unless you are a gorilla with your controller. You'll only get a failed tech if you press the shoulder button until it clicks but you can l-cancel with the lightest of presses. I don't know how this works in P:M though.

 

[batistabus]

The only change I can think of that wouldn't cause too much of a backlash is a personal Automatic/Manual Lag Cancel switch, kind of like in racing games. That way, vets who don't want to break the habit can still have it without accidentally shielding, while players who don't think it's necessary or don't wish to learn it can do what they want as well.

I doubt this is possible, but this should more or less please both sides.

 

[smashbro29]

I think it feels good to see your character flash and get up slightly faster beyond that simple joy it just makes things harder for seemingly no reason.

That being said they probably won't change this, ever.

 

[JOE!]

It already has a punishment for not using it by forcing you to sit there for the whole end lag duration.

No, the argument was that there should be a pro/con to Lcancel and a pro/con to not-lcancel, to make the possibility of not lcanceling something "meaningful" in some manner. Currently, as you stated, there is punishment for NOT lcanceling, and no real reason to not Lcancel as Lcanceling has no real drawback outside of a rare mistiming on a shield or being hit and making a missed tech, both things that could happen in other scenarios IMO.

 

[Burnsy]

The best argument I'm seeing is shield tilting, but I'm still not sold on it being something significant enough to cause top players to miss l cancels often. Has anyone actually done any research on by how many frames a fully tilted shield can adjust l cancel timing?

 

[GaretHax]

Instead of making it automatic, there's also the option of making light-shields and tilting more potent at altering l-canceling timing. I don't think it should be removed as even high-level players mess up and can be made to mess up l-cancel timing, but it could be changed to be less of a requirement and more of an option. Really I don't think it is a big deal, in and of itself, but removing it would essentially cut down apm requirements of high-level play, which may not necessarily be a good thing. It would certainly lower the skill floor, but technical errors and inconsistencies that influence even high level play (falco pillars, fox pressure) would suddenly be much more accessible and harder to botch and get punished for. I don't think making the game easier, with less chance of failure per mechanic is a better route than the opposite we currently have. Sometimes artificial skill ceiling buffers are very important aspects of a game, if things are too easy or done for you, alot of the feeling of accomplishment can be lost, on top of that certain, currently more risky, options may oversaturate the metagame because there simply wouldn't be a reason not ever not use them anymore.

In any case any changes made would be altering a base mechanic of this game, I think people are selling short the impact automatic or redesigned L-canceling would have on the game.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

Plz dont ever change L-Cancelling, its perfect

 

[CORY]

. Really I don't think it is a big deal, in and of itself, but removing it would essentially cut down apm requirements of high-level play, which may not necessarily be a good thing. It would certainly lower the skill floor, but technical errors and inconsistencies that influence even high level play (falco pillars, fox pressure) would suddenly be much more accessible and harder to botch and get punished for.

so this made me think of something:

what if automatic lcancelling was implemented. suddenly, as you mentioned, all these super precise technical requirements for stupid spacey pressure are suddenly lowered. would that be a legitimate reason, at that point, to start tweaking the spacies game down somewhat? since that's one of the reasonings for why they can be so good (they have a high, precise tech skill requirement).

 

[Phaiyte]

So the gist of this whole thing is that a few scrubs want to reduce all aerial end lag automatically because they're bad at the game. Would I be right if I said that?

 

[GaretHax]

so this made me think of something:

what if automatic lcancelling was implemented. suddenly, as you mentioned, all these super precise technical requirements for stupid spacey pressure are suddenly lowered. would that be a legitimate reason, at that point, to start tweaking the spacies game down somewhat? since that's one of the reasonings for why they can be so good (they have a high, precise tech skill requirement).

It would make them simpler, not unpunishable, there are specific fastfall timings for Falco's pillar that influence his landing lag and options upon landing (whether he gets grabbed in certain situations as well). Iirc it is broken down into three main categories top- above, mid, and towards the bottom. Spacies would still get punished, everyone would, but it would be harder for mains of ALL characters to mess up their techskill. It would just mean you see the same, once impressive and interesting, pressure and combos become common place and mundane. The difficulty in execution is, imo at least, one of the things that keeps smash fresh and interesting, downright beautiful really.

 

[guedes the brawler]

So the gist of this whole thing is that a few scrubs want to reduce all aerial end lag automatically because they're bad at the game. Would I be right if I said that?

No.

The gist of this is adding another small layer of depth. While playing PM or Melee, have you ever though "hum, should i l-cancel now?". Of course not: there is no reason NOT to L-cancel... and this is what i was thinking about. What if there were Reasons that a player might not want to l-cancel... some kind of "cost' to the tech, like for example dealing a small bit of damage, or decreasing a bit of your shield per use. Alternatively, some kind of limit, such as reducing the ammount of Lag that was canceled per use... which will increase over time; similarly to how shields work.


I'm not saying "here, do this" for i realize that it would go against what this project represents, and would get in the way of the metagame. and would be a lot of trouble to implement, most likely...

 

[Cubelarooso]

So the gist of this whole thing is that a few scrubs want to reduce all aerial end lag automatically because they're bad at the game. Would I be right if I said that?

Also to forestall the Controller Extinction Event.