How Smash 4 Can Improve Competitively (balance patches confirmed)

[DarkDeity15]

If you're completely fine with how the game plays and would be fine with the game having no changes in gameplay, that's cool. But there are some gripes about the game that I feel are understandable and need to be addressed. Especially now that balance patches have been confirmed.

Approach Options
As it stands now, lack of approach options is the biggest complaint about Sm4sh. Dash dancing like in Melee/PM would probably be the most beneficial thing to have in this game. All characters should at least be able to perform it well. It allows for less predictable play and it's difficult to tell what someone will do out of it. Dash dancing alone would solve the issue of the game lacking approach options by giving you a ton of them, and I don't believe it would have any sort of negative effect on casual play.

Better Offensive Play
This is also an issue. Many argue that the game is more defense-orientated than it is offensive and a better balance between offense and defense would be highly beneficial to Sm4sh's competitive scene, which anyone can understand and agree with since it would allow for more variety in playstyles (which can mean more players and a ritcher meta, therefore a healthier scene). I feel like that's what the dev team were aiming for, but fell short in the long run. I have a few suggestions that may help out with that.

1.) More shieldstun and less invincibility for rolls. Shieldstun is definitely a problem in this game. Even the quickest aerials can be shieldgrabbed even if spaced well in midair right after hitting someones shield, and they're lagless enough to shieldgrab almost anything. Shields being broken more easily isn't enough to balance things out. As for rolls, they're invincibility frames should be cut down at least a little. Sure, they're punishable, but you can effectively evade offensive play by simply rolling away with little risk of getting hit. While they aren't a huge deal, it's a pain to deal with sometimes if you're trying to get in. Especially for slower characters like Ganon.

2.) Less landing lag on aerials along with more hitstun. It would allow for longer and more damaging combos as well as some more creativity with them for more exiting gameplay and reliable kill set-ups. I am aware though that the game's balance would need extensive tweaking in order to include this, but it's definitely worth it imo.

3.) Momentum carried from dashes into jumps. This gives more aerial mobility to extend combos in some cases and get in on opponents more easily. It would also help with finishing off characters further off stage more quickly and without always having to waste a second jump depending on the character's dash speed and weight (correct me if I'm wrong).

Equipment
I've seen people saying that equipment can be a solution, but equipment like Smooth Lander don't really solve anything unless they make them way easier to get. Even then, it's nearly impossible to flatten out the stats unless they make something along the lines of a competitive mode accessible in the roster screen where the the stats of Smooth Lander, Dodgy Dodger and Hard Breaker are completely flat across the roster. And even that wouldn't make much sense as cool as that would be. They might as well just have it be the default game and balance the cast around it, which is pretty much fulfilling the majority of the suggestions here by default.

Feel free to share and discuss your thoughts and opinions below. If you think I'm missing something or would like to correct something I said, let me know. And this is not about making Smash 4 more like Melee. Any posts arguing this will be ignored. By the way, here you go @Shaya.

 

[popsofctown]

If this is not about making smash 4 like melee, could you give us a suggestion that would differentiate smash 4 further from Melee?

 

[DarkDeity15]

If this is not about making smash 4 like melee, could you give us a suggestion that would differentiate smash 4 further from Melee?

Wanting Smash 4 to be a bit more offense-orientated with more approach options than before doesn't mean that we just want it to be like Melee. It will still have Smash 4 properties while being a better competitive game in general. More options = better competitive game. The only way they could differentiate Smash 4 more from Melee is if they added completely new mechanics, which is impossible at this point. The game has already been completed and released.

 

[popsofctown]

Wanting Smash 4 to be a bit more offense-orientated with more approach options than before doesn't mean that we just want it to be like Melee. It will still have Smash 4 properties while being a better competitive game in general. More options = better competitive game. The only way they could differentiate Smash 4 more from Melee is if they added completely new mechanics, which is impossible at this point. The game has already been completed and released.

All your suggestions to make offense stronger are present in Melee. Don't you want Smash to feel like a new entry in the series? When your list of changes exclusively consists of reverts to Melee it makes me suspect you'd be better served by playing Melee.

Reverts to Melee aren't the only possible way to buff approaches. There's several others, some of which don't require new mechanics. But you only seem able to think of the ones that come from Melee.

 

[Zero Suit Senpai]

All your suggestions to make offense stronger are present in Melee. Don't you want Smash to feel like a new entry in the series? When your list of changes exclusively consists of reverts to Melee it makes me suspect you'd be better served by playing Melee.

Reverts to Melee aren't the only possible way to buff approaches. There's several others, some of which don't require new mechanics. But you only seem able to think of the ones that come from Melee.

Would you like to suggest some?

I don't mean that to be rude. But you're just dismissing every single one of his ideas as being "like melee," and claiming that there are better offensive solutions without making the game "like melee," but you don't suggest any yourself.

Melee was a more offensive game. If he's suggesting that the game should be more offensive, then of course it will be more like melee...because melee was a more offensive game.

Why do people always dismiss threads making very legitimate, but definitely debatable points, by essentially saying "Well if you like Melee so much then why don't you marry it?" People should be allowed to criticize smash 4 without hearing that every single time they do. It's not good for discussion.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[DarkDeity15]

All your suggestions to make offense stronger are present in Melee. Don't you want Smash to feel like a new entry in the series? When your list of changes exclusively consists of reverts to Melee it makes me suspect you'd be better served by playing Melee.

Reverts to Melee aren't the only possible way to buff approaches. There's several others, some of which don't require new mechanics. But you only seem able to think of the ones that come from Melee.

Do you have any alternatives? I'd be happy to add them to the OP.

 

[zz_halim]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dont-approach-melees-flaw-dissected.312501/

just sayin

 

[popsofctown]

Do you have any alternatives? I'd be happy to add them to the OP.

Increased crawl speed. The ability to cancel dash into walk. Regain double jump on connecting with an aerial. Rolls retain all invincibility, except one class of move always connects with them (grab, or nair, dash attack, dtilt, not sure which is best, nerfs defense and rewards reading rolls).
Dash cancels crouch (perhaps with a slide).

If I actually saw things in the game that struct me as defensive problems I'd probably have more ideas beyond that.

 

[Flamecircle]

People need to stop making these threads.
1) It's unlikely any core mechanics are going to change, especially not blanket changes to roll, shield stun, etc, particularly not if some thread was made about it.
2) if any of them did, it would be on a character basis, as individual characters have different values. For example, if you played against a competent Sheik, you wouldn't say her offensive pressure is weak, would you?
3) All your changes are the differences between 4 and melee. While I realize people wanted melee again, this feels like a failure to accept a different game. Props for not wanting wave dashing and l-cancelling back too, though.

4) on with point 3- Rolls may be strong, too strong for lower levels, but at higher levels it is both used and punished, which is better than never used at all. I'm getting into my opinion though, and there's already a whole thread for whining about rolls, so ignore this point.

 

[Ticker]

Now this would probably never happen, but the ability to cancel rolls into attacks.

 

[DarkDeity15]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dont-approach-melees-flaw-dissected.312501/

just sayin

That's Hax's opinion. His exceptions to Fox, Falco and Peach having great offensive games nullifies his argument entirely because they are three of the few viable characters in the game. Not to mention that the post was made three years ago. Things could've easily changed since then.

Increased crawl speed. The ability to cancel dash into walk. Regain double jump on connecting with an aerial. Rolls retain all invincibility, except one class of move always connects with them (grab, or nair, dash attack, dtilt, not sure which is best, nerfs defense and rewards reading rolls).
Dash cancels crouch (perhaps with a slide).

If I actually saw things in the game that struct me as defensive problems I'd probably have more ideas beyond that.

Crouch out of dash is in Melee as well, so that's not really helping out on your side. But I'll definitely be adding that. Increased crawl speed won't really change anything. And woah there. We don't want to render dodging completely useless. And regain double jumps after connecting an aerial? Do you know what that could lead to? It would be Smash 64 all over again.

 

[GangsterPuff]

Only problem I really have is that smash attacks are too fast to punish, blast zone are too big, and with the edge hogging gone, some characters had no options of stage. Like for example, I was playing this rosa on bf, and she is edge guarding me, and no matter what I do, I can get punished. I can't attack cause rosa's shield is so big, I can't roll since Luna's in the way, and rosa's down tilt covers so much range, only thing I can do is jump,which most of the times means eating a u-air. Oh yeah also, buff kirby please!!!

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd decrease shield regeneration speed, but make it dependent on the character's weight. Bowser's shield would regenerate at about the same rate as it does now, while lighter characters would have it regenerate more slowly. Puff gets extra shield HP to compensate for dying when her shield breaks. This would force lighter characters to be more careful about shielding and utilize their superior mobility to avoid strong attacks without penalizing heavyweights for not being able to dodge as effectively. I'd also bring back dash dancing to make it easier for high mobility characters to bait out punishable moves and get in on people.

 

[popsofctown]

T


hat's Hax's opinion. His exceptions to Fox, Falco and Peach having great offensive games nullifies his argument entirely because they are three of the few viable characters in the game. Not to mention that the post was made three years ago. Things could've easily changed since then.


Crouch out of dash is in Melee as well, so that's not really helping out on your side. But I'll definitely be adding that. Increased crawl speed won't really change anything. And woah there. We don't want to render dodging completely useless. And regain double jumps after connecting an aerial? Do you know what that could lead to? It would be Smash 64 all over again.

I could insist that having run speed transfer to jumps wouldn't change anything the same way you insist increased crawl speed wouldn't change anything. I could, that is, if Melee wasn't around to refute me. That's why it's a lot easier to play armchair quarterback by insisting a new product be more like an old one that was successful than it is to create something that is brand new and still good.
But you can't create something new that way, and if you repeatedly change the new product that way it will serve a niche that is already covered by the old one.

 

[Azazel]

People need to stop making these threads.
1) It's unlikely any core mechanics are going to change, especially not blanket changes to roll, shield stun, etc, particularly not if some thread was made about it.
2) if any of them did, it would be on a character basis, as individual characters have different values. For example, if you played against a competent Sheik, you wouldn't say her offensive pressure is weak, would you?
3) All your changes are the differences between 4 and melee. While I realize people wanted melee again, this feels like a failure to accept a different game. Props for not wanting wave dashing and l-cancelling back too, though.

4) on with point 3- Rolls may be strong, too strong for lower levels, but at higher levels it is both used and punished, which is better than never used at all. I'm getting into my opinion though, and there's already a whole thread for whining about rolls, so ignore this point.

True, true. Also the quick rolls allow for more offensive use out of them. if there were to be any changes to rolls it should NOT be the roll speed but the vulnerability time towards the end of it to be punished. As currently, buffering rolls back to back is very hard to punish for some characters

 

[LucasBlitz]

http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/ How to dash dance in Sm4sh.
Go crazy.

 

[TimeSmash]

Just a tinge more hitstun and less landing lag on some aerials would be heavenly.

 

[CodeBlue_]

http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/ How to dash dance in Sm4sh.
Go crazy.

But there's really no point in doing this, as dash dancing gives you the same distance as if you stood in place. The point of dash dancing was to weave in and out of the opponent's range to mindgame. This can be an alternative to simply comitting to a dash, but I'm not sure if it is as useful.

Also, there's no need to be passive aggressive. We are simply suggesting ways of improvement.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Dash-dancing exists. Not like Melee Dash-dancing, but it's still there. Also, even though we lost the Melee dash-dance, we gained some other things to help with movement: pivots, easier fox-trots, really easy Reverse Aerial Rush, etc. I wouldn't mind easier dash-dancing to come back though, it's pretty hard to do at this moment +not really that good.

Agree

By far, rolls really need to get fixed. My personal thoughts, I'm glad they're not like Melee bad anymore, where rolling was risky and situational. I like the intention, that they finally became what they were intended to be: viable options used to get around your opponents, but they can be punished if used excessively. However, I do think they went way South with them, and made them unreasonably good with some characters to the point where these punishes are ridiculously tough to pull off. If anything, at least get the ones in characters like Little Mac and Sonic fixed.

Momentum carried: yes. As a Fox main, it's infuriating to watch your opponent make it back onstage with your only options at gimping being:
a) well-timed B-air
b) U-smash / D-smash reads
c) back hit-box of Fox Illusion
d) footstool jump

All of which are hard, risky, and overall not safe at all to do. However, if momentum being carried is added, this might make characters like Fox, C. Falcon, and Sonic better than they are right now. That's a scary thought: they're already pretty good. Something to sleep on.

Disagree

Less landing lag: Nope. This game already has aerials with barely any landing lag. Most aerials are also piss-easy to auto-cancel with short-hops. Less landing lag will only make punishing air attacks completely unreasonable, like the way rolls are.

Same goes with hit-stun: there's already enough hit-stun in the moves that matter for most characters. You need to be fast / have knowledge of these moves to follow up attacks, and maybe the combos aren't as long as the Melee/PM ones, but many characters right now have combos that work well with the current hitstun in their moves. I would rather have these short combos over inescapable Marvel vs Capcom-esque combos (and this is what they could become if more hit-stun is added, Vectoring isn't like DI at all. Let's not start talking about implementing DI either, that's unreasonably complicated).

 

[DarkDeity15]

Dash-dancing exists. Not like Melee Dash-dancing, but it's still there. Also, even though we lost the Melee dash-dance, we gained some other things to help with movement: pivots, easier fox-trots, really easy Reverse Aerial Rush, etc. I wouldn't mind easier dash-dancing to come back though, it's pretty hard to do at this moment +not really that good.

Agree

By far, rolls really need to get fixed. My personal thoughts, I'm glad they're not like Melee bad anymore, where rolling was risky and situational. I like the intention, that they finally became what they were intended to be: viable options used to get around your opponents, but they can be punished if used excessively. However, I do think they went way South with them, and made them unreasonably good with some characters to the point where these punishes are ridiculously tough to pull off. If anything, at least get the ones in characters like Little Mac and Sonic fixed.

Momentum carried: yes. As a Fox main, it's infuriating to watch your opponent make it back onstage with your only options at gimping being:
a) well-timed B-air
b) U-smash / D-smash reads
c) back hit-box of Fox Illusion
d) footstool jump

All of which are hard, risky, and overall not safe at all to do. However, if momentum being carried is added, this might make characters like Fox, C. Falcon, and Sonic better than they are right now. That's a scary thought: they're already pretty good. Something to sleep on.

Disagree

Less landing lag: Nope. This game already has aerials with barely any landing lag. Most aerials are also piss-easy to auto-cancel with short-hops. Less landing lag will only make punishing air attacks completely unreasonable, like the way rolls are.

Same goes with hit-stun: there's already enough hit-stun in the moves that matter for most characters. You need to be fast / have knowledge of these moves to follow up attacks, and maybe the combos aren't as long as the Melee/PM ones, but many characters right now have combos that work well with the current hitstun in their moves. I would rather have these short combos over inescapable Marvel vs Capcom-esque combos (and this is what they could become if more hit-stun is added, Vectoring isn't like DI at all. Let's not start talking about implementing DI either, that's unreasonably complicated).

I'm not saying that they should add Melee hitstun lol. Just enough to extend combos more. Less landlag would increase the pace of a match and would also extend combos. I'm guessing it would have to be one or the other. If I were to choose between the two, I would go with less landing lag on aerials. Pulling off and watching others perform amazing combos has always been super hype.

Moves like Falcon's knee and Greninja's Dair should retain at least most of their landlag though, cuz logic. I'm not saying that all moves should have significantly reduced landlag because that would cause some obvious balance issues. Aerial landlag is also a common complaint though. Fixing Marth's Fair, Bair and Uair landlag would encourage me to use him more. Marth however definitely isn't the only character that suffers from landlag issues.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Less landing lag: Nope. This game already has aerials with barely any landing lag. Most aerials are also piss-easy to auto-cancel with short-hops. Less landing lag will only make punishing air attacks completely unreasonable, like the way rolls are.

I think you are over-blowing the potency of aerial attacks. Shield grabs are extremely potent due to low shield stun, so it's generally easy to punish aerials out of shield. Can you give me frame data for autocancelled frames? I don't think it is as unreasonable as Smash 64, where the landing lag was completely ignored and I don't think it should be.

I'm not entirely certain on how auto-canceling works, but it is far from unreasonable and actually makes certain aerials situational (instead of giving low landing lag to all parts of the move). If you don't use the frames of the attack that auto-cancels, you get 10-30 frames of landing lag. I think THIS is what OP wants reduced. This landing lag is unreasonable and gives an extreme frame advantage to those on the ground and makes using aerials extremely annoying (especially during strings).

Same goes with hit-stun: there's already enough hit-stun in the moves that matter for most characters. You need to be fast / have knowledge of these moves to follow up attacks, and maybe the combos aren't as long as the Melee/PM ones, but many characters right now have combos that work well with the current hitstun in their moves. I would rather have these short combos over inescapable Marvel vs Capcom-esque combos (and this is what they could become if more hit-stun is added, Vectoring isn't like DI at all. Let's not start talking about implementing DI either, that's unreasonably complicated).

I don't agree. The punish game in this game is sub-par; most 2-3 hit confirms are unreliable and anything outside of this is impossible. It forces unnecessary and annoying prediction to guaranteed combos (airdodge reads, double jump reads etc.). Combine this with the low falling speed and unnecessarily high knockback and combos stop working at 40+% which makes combo (especially into KO moves) impratical.

Increasing hit-stun to Melee's level will not make this like Marvel 3; Marvel doesn't have Smash's knockback system, and doesn't have DI/VI. On the contrary, I think it will give balance between the defensive extreme of this game and the offensive extreme of Marvel 3.

Edit: Excuse poor organization and compressed/generalized statements. I was rushed when posting this.

 

[TimeSmash]

Also, I will add that recoveries are just a bit too much. I'm not saying everyone should have Little Mac recoveries, but it is extremely frustrating to gimp someone as Jiggly or Peach and have them be able to return all the way from the blast zone. I don't really mind about the edge mechanic so much as that everyone can get back to it.

 

[Conda]

Remove tripping add wavedashing.

It feels like 2008 again.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Remove tripping add wavedashing.

It feels like 2008 again.

What were you expecting? The game has its issues.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also, I will add that recoveries are just a bit too much. I'm not saying everyone should have Little Mac recoveries, but it is extremely frustrating to gimp someone as Jiggly or Peach and have them be able to return all the way from the blast zone. I don't really mind about the edge mechanic so much as that everyone can get back to it.

Or you go out and make sure they don't, even people with good recoveries are gimpable.

 

[TimeSmash]

Or you go out and make sure they don't, even people with good recoveries are gimpable.

But, but, effort.

I'm just having the issue where I'm going out too deep to get back to the stage in time or something. I haven't played in a little bit, though so that might just be me. Regardless, recoveries feel too generous in this game, even if it does promote actual edgeguarding versus hanging on a ledge and sitting there haha

 

[DarkDeity15]

How about just having less ledge-snap/grab range? Recoveries aren't the issue. It's the ledge grab range pacifying them that's the problem imo.

 

[oldkingcroz]

-Increase the speed of rolling.
-remove all invincibility of rolling.
-make shields break [slightly] more easily.
-balance "lower tier" characters

 

[DarkDeity15]

-Increase the speed of rolling.
-remove all invincibility of rolling.
-make shields break [slightly] more easily.
-balance "lower tier" characters

That's actually a really good idea. That would change things up quite a bit and I actually see no issues with this. Good thinking.

 

[Tagxy]

The problem with ideas like these is it assumes this perception of the game is correct. For instance what if offensive options are at a good amount right now, and you want to add even more. That would leave an inferior game.

The other problem is the issues seem copy-pastad from day 1 pre-release invitational demo complaints from melee players, whom it became clear later didnt have a very good understanding of the game.

Before you suggest solutions, you should be able to completely and thoroughly explain that the problem even exists.

 

[LucasBlitz]

Also, I will add that recoveries are just a bit too much. I'm not saying everyone should have Little Mac recoveries, but it is extremely frustrating to gimp someone as Jiggly or Peach and have them be able to return all the way from the blast zone. I don't really mind about the edge mechanic so much as that everyone can get back to it.

This I can agree with, trying to blast
out of the screen with a ridiculous recovery like that really gives me a headache.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Even in Melee, characters like Jiggs and Peach were hard to edgeguard. The auto-ledge snap only makes this worse.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Wii U version has closer blast zones than the 3DS stages: expect earlier KO's in that game. I went to York U last Sunday, got to play with TO Joe's copy of Smash Wii U: Fox's Up-smash KO'd an 80% Rosalina, and I managed to carry someone offstage with Meta Knight's F-air, with the 2nd F-air KO'ing Kirby with the last hit at 65%. I think getting gimps on characters won't be as big of an issue on Wii U like it is in 3DS.

 

[Quillion]

I'm surprised there's nothing about "directional air dodge". It's pretty well agreed (outside of casual posers pretending to be competitive players) that it's more beneficial to gameplay because it forces more skillful use of other options in defense.

 

[ToadsterOven]

Even in Melee, characters like Jiggs and Peach were hard to edgeguard. The auto-ledge snap only makes this worse.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Wii U version has closer blast zones than the 3DS stages: expect earlier KO's in that game. I went to York U last Sunday, got to play with TO Joe's copy of Smash Wii U: Fox's Up-smash KO'd an 80% Rosalina, and I managed to carry someone offstage with Meta Knight's F-air, with the 2nd F-air KO'ing Kirby with the last hit at 65%. I think getting gimps on characters won't be as big of an issue on Wii U like it is in 3DS.

Thanks for the information man! I had a feeling all along that while the 3DS version is a solid smash bros game, it was also more or less a "beta" if you will for the definitive version of smash 4 on the Wii U. Perhaps Sakurai and Namco took feedback from early players of the 3DS version that the blast zones were a bit far out? While I love my copy of the handheld version, I must agree with everyone else that blast zones can be annoying as all hell sometimes especially when you see that effect that generally signifies you got a KO on someone only for your opponent to somehow not touch the blast zone and make their way back to the stage.

Sure you can jump off the stage and try to land a well placed aerial attack, but I've found the odds of that happening were a bit lower than I expected.

 

[Captain Norris]

Could Pit/Dark Pit please have a smaller recovery, just a tiny bit? They can be off screen below the stages int he 3ds version and still recover.

 

[Dr.Smex]

Reduce the invincibility frames on rolls, it's ridiculous that most characters rolls can not be punished even with HARD reads, I also would like to not be able to chain air dodges in the IASA frames the tech itself is fine it helps aggressive approaching but I don't like that you can airdodge into airdodge into airdodge with minimal risk. I think those changes are fair and ain't targeting a single character I love this game otherwise.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm surprised there's nothing about "directional air dodge". It's pretty well agreed (outside of casual posers pretending to be competitive players) that it's more beneficial to gameplay because it forces more skillful use of other options in defense.

Is this suggesting removing multi airdodges?

 

[CE_TheLord]

Even in Melee, characters like Jiggs and Peach were hard to edgeguard. The auto-ledge snap only makes this worse.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Wii U version has closer blast zones than the 3DS stages: expect earlier KO's in that game. I went to York U last Sunday, got to play with TO Joe's copy of Smash Wii U: Fox's Up-smash KO'd an 80% Rosalina, and I managed to carry someone offstage with Meta Knight's F-air, with the 2nd F-air KO'ing Kirby with the last hit at 65%. I think getting gimps on characters won't be as big of an issue on Wii U like it is in 3DS.

Or maybe the Wii U version (Assuming that patch 1.0.4 is included with it) gives more knockback to these attacks you mention. Maybe the blast zones in the 3DS version will be reduced (Which I doubt). Anyway, if your theory is correct, it's good to know that the Wii U version of Smash 4 will be a little bit faster than 3DS.

 

[CE_TheLord]

I hope that Pit's side-B either get buffed, or get the lag reduced because there isn't K.O potential with that attack (Dark Pit's is much better) I think they should give a lot less lag to Pit's side-B with a little buff in damage, and left the lag on Dark Pit's side B unchanged.

 

[Quillion]

Is this suggesting removing multi airdodges?

No, since the conserving air dodge is inherently a disaster of game design since it's just free invincibility frames. It ruins the skill you build up since all the opponent does is press R to win.