How should "The SHINE" be in brawl?

[Zeee]

In SSB it was canceled when you landed.
In SSBM it was canceled by jumping....

In SSBB It could be canceled by... Shielding, Dodging.... attacking..... uhh Crawling?

Post your ideas and think about how it would gimp/better Fox(Falco and Krystal dont count.. yet)

 

[Ensee]

Hmmm, I can't really say for sure, although I do believe it will be canceled by jumping like it is now.

 

[felix45]

I dont see how it could get any better cancel wise, so really the shine can only get worse. let us hope it does....


I kinda hope it goes back to ground cancel.

 

[Chepe]

I hope it does 1% damage and has knockback equal to Ice Climbers' dair. Serves them shiners right. It pisses me off how a move with a name and intention of REFLECTOR has become the main source of Fox/Falco's potential...

Oh, and give it some lag prty please. And no canceling either!

 

[Antifreeze]

Ya, hopefully the shine will be a bit less deadly in the next game. If they make it so that you couldn't just jump cancel it, it would give the rest of us a better chance

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I dont see how it could get any better cancel wise, so really the shine can only get worse. let us hope it does....


I kinda hope it goes back to ground cancel.

I hope it does 1% damage and has knockback equal to Ice Climbers' dair. Serves them shiners right. It pisses me off how a move with a name and intention of REFLECTOR has become the main source of Fox/Falco's potential...

Oh, and give it some lag prty please. And no canceling either!

Ya, hopefully the shine will be a bit less deadly in the next game. If they make it so that you couldn't just jump cancel it, it would give the rest of us a better chance

Lol,noobs afraid of the shine...

I still can't understand why everyone wants it to be removed so a few kids off the short bus can play fair.Sure,the shine is broken,but that doesn't mean that it isn't hard to use effectivly in combat.

And if you are afraid of it,just dodge it.You can Shield Grab if a Fox Waveshines out of a SHFFL Dair or Fair.The shine spike is also a deadly technique,but it takes time to practice.Infinate combo's are NOT important to use,the same can be said for multiple waveshines.

Don't think that Fox wins because of the shine,it's the player,the ability to use other moves effectivly,and mindgames.

If you can't beat him..well,you just suck then.And if you can't beat him,play with him.

 

[AceMoney]

I must agree with Eternal phoenix fire, (that's a first). In this situation he's completely right. There's plenty of ways around a shine spike and the shine in general. If you're getting owned by a fox, change your playing style! There's no reason to complain if you don't put in any effort to get around it. Anyways, I bet it won't change much. Its purpose was to reflect projectiles and stun people. Which it does, so there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I must agree with Eternal phoenix fire, (that's a first). In this situation he's completely right. There's plenty of ways around a shine spike and the shine in general. If you're getting owned by a fox, change your playing style! There's no reason to complain if you don't put in any effort to get around it. Anyways, I bet it won't change much. Its purpose was to reflect projectiles and stun people. Which it does, so there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

Wow,that first sentence made me feel like a total arse....

 

[Aminar]

If you are willing to say it's "broken" it needs to be fixed. My personal opinion is it should launch people up instead of down, and have more pre shine lag time. That would balance it fairly well.

 

[AceMoney]

So....in other words...turn fox into Falco?

 

[Big Burn]

by making them less rigged??? perhaps.... anyone.... i even play falco myself... and i must agree its to rigged....

 

[fabianmo]

Meh, I gotta admit to be able to use the waveshine u have to have some incredible fast fingers so I dont complain
Although it bugs me wehn they get a kill off me with only 20% >.<
I think they should make it less broken

 

[Big Burn]

waveshine = easy peezy lemo squeezy... i guess it takes somewhat fast fingers... but with a little practice it is pretty easy and then its automatic rigged once u get the hang of it

 

[GreenMamba]

Lol,noobs afraid of the shine...

I still can't understand why everyone wants it to be removed so a few kids off the short bus can play fair.Sure,the shine is broken,but that doesn't mean that it isn't hard to use effectivly in combat.

And if you are afraid of it,just dodge it.You can Shield Grab if a Fox Waveshines out of a SHFFL Dair or Fair.The shine spike is also a deadly technique,but it takes time to practice.Infinate combo's are NOT important to use,the same can be said for multiple waveshines.

Don't think that Fox wins because of the shine,it's the player,the ability to use other moves effectivly,and mindgames.

If you can't beat him..well,you just suck then.And if you can't beat him,play with him.

Curious how you say it doesn't need to be fixed, even though you say it's broken.

 

[Wrath`]

If you cant handle the shine,get out of the kitchen.

It's wierd i cant shine,I know how but dont use it.But I most allways ruin my opponets shine.

SHINE RUIN MASTER

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

I also think they should leave it as jump-canceled.

 

[Coen]

I guess it will still be JC-able. I hope it's not though ^^ Freaking lame attack.

 

[dizzy]

Most of all, the shine needs to lose its set knockback. If the shine's knockback increased with damage (like nearly every other attack in the game), shine infinites probably wouldn't exist.

Also, if the shine's knockback were angled slightly up, not down, that would remove the possibility of flatland shine combos in general - that way, you could only use the shine to start juggles.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

C'mon people,your acting like the shine is an insant death.Try playing Fox or Falco against someone who is good,then see how well the shine would help.

It requiers skill to use the shine effectivly.And ths shine spike isn't thatmuch of a big deal,it can be teched,and you can get the same knock back result with shieks Bair edge gaurd.Did i also mention that you can DI away from the opponent when you get shined?

I believe that people tend to over exaggerate the power the shine posses...or people just can't accept the fact that if they cannot avoid the shine,there not that good.

 

[pdk]

just give the things a couple frames of startup, even if we're still talking bowser's-up+b fast, and even then it'll be fine

 

[Blackshadow]

Its pretty hard to avoid a shine if the only thing between you and the stage is the opponent <_<.

But yeah, everything else you said is fine, people should stop *****ing and play the **** game and if you get shine combo'd to death well then you deserved it.

 

[greenblob]

First off, I say give Falco his own moveset (which means no Shine for him).
Second, give Fox Falco's Shine.
Third, don't give Fox Falco's dair.

You can still cancel it, but you can't infinite combo or Shine-spike or Pillar. The Shine will still be important for comboing or breaking combos, but it won't be so deadly.

 

[Pye]

Honestly, I think they should leave it as is in Melee. Eternal Pheonix Fire is right, this is silly. The shine may be the reason why Fox and Falco are as good as they are (well, for Falco, I still think his lasers > his shine, but thats a different story), but it's not unbeatable.

Shinespikes are annoying, yes, but they don't happen very often. Low damage shine spikes are not a huge part of a good Fox's game. In fact, their barely a part of it at all. The only time a Fox will acualy focuses on getting low percent shine kills is possibly in friendlies, or when the Fox player has to pee.

Second, using the shine correctly takes months and months of practice (assuming you started as totally oblivious as to what a WD is, or the shine is for that matter). Beleive it or not, you can't just pick up a space animal and win because you have the shine. They take finesse and perfection (Fox moreso then Falco, but dispite Falco's reputation of beeing easy to pick up and play, he takes practice too).

Third, I just thought I should put it out there that (last time I heard), none of the top 3 players in the US were space animal users, thus the top 3 players in the US don't use the shine to win. Dosn't that say something? If the shine was as impossibly unbeatable as this topic makes it out to be, shouldn't the top 3...no, acualy, make that 30 (or 300. You get the idea)...players in the world be Foxes and Falcos?

 

[Red Exodus]

As long as I can still reflect stuff I don't care. I've never seen the shine used to it's maximum potential, actually, the best shiner I've ever played was me. Most other people [I play] suck with Fox/Falco or just plain suck at SSBM.

 

[1048576]

I don't think it should be given start-up time. Think of what that did to Ness's down B. Perhaps the move should only hit in front of the space animals instead of surrounding them. Thoughts?

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

I think the shine needs to have more utility as a defensive option and less as an offensive option.

Most of the suggestions for nerfing it - startup lag, etc. - would make it even worse at countering projectiles, which it's already never used for. Take it back to what it's supposed to be, I say.

 

[Samochan]

Fox's shine does contribute a lot to him being the best character in the game. It enables him avoid shieldgrabbing alltogether so he can shffle all day and start comboes, shinespike at any 0%, waveshine 70% of the cast and infinite, not forgetting JC shines to eat shields. Shine is a big part on Fox's game and goes too well with his insane speed, fast falling, 4 frame jump and great shffle game. I have no problems against the shine and as I play Pal, shine is the only reason fox is not getting ***** by peaches, but it's still annoying when they can just land in front of me like nothing and start shining, with no amount of spacing done like every other character needs to do (heck, peach needs to space her fair, then do the right thing to not get shieldgrabbed or attacked from above even with float cancel >_>). I do find it kinda lame that fox needs no spacing or feinting skills to not get his shffle shieldgrabbed. >_> Though I'm quite happy what they did to Pal Fox (I've played NTSC and that's borken), so I'd like Brawl have Pal fox, with a little shine tweaking perhaps. Maybe a little more cooldown lag, so that you could still shine instantly and shinespike someone, but one shine would not be automatic combo.

 

[Eaode]

Honestly, I think they should leave it as is in Melee. Eternal Pheonix Fire is right, this is silly. The shine may be the reason why Fox and Falco are as good as they are (well, for Falco, I still think his lasers > his shine, but thats a different story), but it's not unbeatable.

Shinespikes are annoying, yes, but they don't happen very often. Low damage shine spikes are not a huge part of a good Fox's game. In fact, their barely a part of it at all. The only time a Fox will acualy focuses on getting low percent shine kills is possibly in friendlies, or when the Fox player has to pee.

Second, using the shine correctly takes months and months of practice (assuming you started as totally oblivious as to what a WD is, or the shine is for that matter). Beleive it or not, you can't just pick up a space animal and win because you have the shine. They take finesse and perfection (Fox moreso then Falco, but dispite Falco's reputation of beeing easy to pick up and play, he takes practice too).

Third, I just thought I should put it out there that (last time I heard), none of the top 3 players in the US were space animal users, thus the top 3 players in the US don't use the shine to win. Dosn't that say something? If the shine was as impossibly unbeatable as this topic makes it out to be, shouldn't the top 3...no, acualy, make that 30 (or 300. You get the idea)...players in the world be Foxes and Falcos?

Isn't PC Chris #3?

Anyway, the shine is not an instant win, that is established. I think it should still be a very viable move. But unlike the people who are totally destroying it, I only want it nerfed slightly.

Maybe they could give it 3-4 frames of starup time, instead of 1. Perhaps jump cancelling could be delayed to about 5 frames after it can be done now. And finally, Everyone should fall down from the shine, this would eliminate waveshining. Maybe that last one is a bit drastic, but what do y'all think?

 

[Papapaint]

No one is arguing that shine=instant win. The simple argument is that it's broken. Broken =/= instant win. There are plenty of moves essential to characters' games: Marth's Fsmash, Luigi's Chop, Falco's SHL, but none of those are "broken".

There's no sense in leaving fox with a ridiculously overpowered move. It has nothing to do with who uses fox, who wins with fox, or what have you. The shine is still overpowered. Set knockback straight down at instant speed with an instantly cancellable move? Broken. Staggered knockback to the side at slightly lower speed with a bit of lag before the ability to cancel? Less broken, still useful.

 

[marthsword]

Isn't PC Chris #3?

Ken mains fox as well as marth
PC Chris plays fox as well as falco, so pdk's statement is wrong.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Well, for me I'd ask myself "Why would Sakurai's latest trailer being Fox's appearence???"

Blah, we still never know what he did with him... xP

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

it should lag as long as samus' grapple beam and if u miss then u gotta wait for lag, so no cancelling, i dont think they will keep the infinite combo in the game, or make it as abuseable.

y would they do something like this, ppl want a new game and not the exact same gameplay, i bought a Wii for this game, and i hope it doesnt have the flaws of SSBM

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No one is arguing that shine=instant win. The simple argument is that it's broken. Broken =/= instant win. There are plenty of moves essential to characters' games: Marth's Fsmash, Luigi's Chop, Falco's SHL, but none of those are "broken".

There's no sense in leaving fox with a ridiculously overpowered move. It has nothing to do with who uses fox, who wins with fox, or what have you. The shine is still overpowered. Set knockback straight down at instant speed with an instantly cancellable move? Broken. Staggered knockback to the side at slightly lower speed with a bit of lag before the ability to cancel? Less broken, still useful.

Your follious actions never cease to amuse me....

How could Broken=Instant Win?You obviously never played with Fox or Falco,because all of those combo's and techs take time to practice,and require quick fingers,and quick reactions.

Don't think that Fox/Falco are just completly broken.There is good as the player makes them,even though they do have moves to give them the advantage.

 

[Devastlian]

Shouldn't this thread be in the character discussion section? 'Cause, despite how integral this move is to SSB in general, it only applies to two characters in SSBM, only one of which has been confirmed.

As to the question...the reflector should be what the reflector is in SSBB. Whether it stays as Fox' in SSBM or is just the PSY shield with reflective abilities or gets rest's range, if they change it Fox in SSBB won't be SSBM Fox with a different reflector (assuming it actually remains) it'll be SSBB Fox with a different reflector. While said down B may change, the chances of all of the other 16 (or however many there are) moves staying exactly the same is pretty slim. And, if the reflector is removed, Fox won't be SSBM Fox with no down B, either, he'd get another down B which could perfectly compensate or his other moves could perfectly compensate.

Just some things to consider...

 

[dizzy]

Fox's shine is the fastest attack in the game, and its lag is immediately cancellable. It combos into nearly every attack in Fox's arsenal, and several attacks chain straight back into the shine. Depending on the opponent's character and the stage, the shine can even chain infinitely into itself. Fox's shine penetrates or neutralizes most of the game's major defensive options, including but not limited to sidesteps, roll dodges, air dodges, and even shields. On top of all that, it can also kill several characters at any given percentage in edgeguards.

Yes, it has a high learning curve, but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken. It needs to be nerfed, not just so "a few kids off the short bus can play fair," but because the shine is overpowered by nature and severely throws off the game's balance. It would be irresponsible for a game developer to just leave an attack that can chain infinitely and ignore defenses, even if it is difficult to use.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Shine is **** broken right now as is. Force the jump-cancel on a later frame, at least long enough for it to be shield-grabbed more consistently (right now the timing is pretty much 1/60th second timing to get a shield-grab) Either force a higher neutral DI on hit or force auto-knockdown on hit. One prevents 4% death from shinespikes and another prevents easy 40% on half the cast.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Fox's shine is the fastest attack in the game, and its lag is immediately cancellable. It combos into nearly every attack in Fox's arsenal, and several attacks chain straight back into the shine. Depending on the opponent's character and the stage, the shine can even chain infinitely into itself. Fox's shine penetrates or neutralizes most of the game's major defensive options, including but not limited to sidesteps, roll dodges, air dodges, and even shields. On top of all that, it can also kill several characters at any given percentage in edgeguards.

Yes, it has a high learning curve, but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken. It needs to be nerfed, not just so "a few kids off the short bus can play fair," but because the shine is overpowered by nature and severely throws off the game's balance. It would be irresponsible for a game developer to just leave an attack that can chain infinitely and ignore defenses, even if it is difficult to use.

Despite the facts,it is very improbable that these factors have been taken into consideration in the development.Tournament based recognition in smash bros. is very small,and by numbers compared to the general public,tournament communities hardly even exist.

To game designers,the knockback from the shine is merely"a little push".But to take what you said into consideration,it's possible that the game designers would try to balance things out.But the only way possible would be to examine the properties of the shine,and get a general understanding of how it is used in the tournament community.

And that,i doubt that they have done that.The games primary marketing demographic is on the general gaming public.It may be possible that the developers are aware of the tournament community due to that famous quote.

The only possible way to nerf the shine is for Sakurai to be aware of us,and as improbable is it may seem,it's actually possible...

 

[MetaKnight0]

I don't see how it's very difficult at all to discover a large tournament community at all. While nothing compared to the general population, SSBM has the largest competitive population of pretty much any fighting game in the United States. You don't even need to dig to find good or even mediocre ssbm videos that are using things like waveshines and chain grabs. I'm pretty sure that with 5 years, Sakurai is well aware of the community. That shouldn't be an issue.

 

[GOTM]

I think that they will do something to change the shine. They have seen how deadly this single simple move can be, and I think when Nintendo sees something like this, they usually make it worse. I hope they don't, but I think they will. I main Fox and think the shine is absolutely the most vital part of Fox's success if used correctly. I think the damage of the shine will be increased, but the effect after shining will be decreased. For example, on average, the shine right now does about 4 damage, and pushed the character a decent amount while completely canceling or interrupting their movement and attack. I think in Brawl, the shine will do maybe around 6-7 damage, but not have as much as a "canceling" effect on the opposing character.

 

[Pye]

Isn't PC Chris #3?

Maybe they could give it 3-4 frames of starup time, instead of 1. Perhaps jump cancelling could be delayed to about 5 frames after it can be done now. And finally, Everyone should fall down from the shine, this would eliminate waveshining. Maybe that last one is a bit drastic, but what do y'all think?

Is PC #3? I wasn't sure, like I said. I know that Ken is #1 and Chu Dat is #2.

Ken mains Marth over Fox. He does use Fox, but when matches really matter, he's using Marth.

As for the startup time on the shine, I guess I wouldn't mind it beeing a bit slower. 3 frames (equal to the startup on Ganon's jab) or 4 frames (equal to the startup on Bowser's upB) is reasonable, I agree with you. Remember though, you don't want the move to be so nerfed that it's completely useless. Look at how nerfed Kirby was between SSB and Melee. I'm sure it would piss off a lot of people if that happened to the shine.

I think you might have something there, with the "all characters get knocked down", but like you said, it might be too much of a nerf. Think about it, what can the shine be used for if you can't combo in or out of it anymore?

Acualy, know what I think would be the best nerf for the shine? Get rid of it's set knockback. No more infinites, but it can still be used to combo (this is, of course, in addition to come out/lag time nerfs). The problem with doing this is super strong shine spikes at like 30% and up. Maybe set knockback in midair, but damage based knockback along on ground?

EDIT: Not sure if this was mentioned, but does anyone here ever remember the origional intention of the shine? The reason it comes out in one frame is so it's fast enough to reflect projectiles. If it takes too long to come out, it'll be useless even at that. Nintendo has got to be very carful with how they go about nerfing this move.