How is Ganondorf now compared to Brawl?

[WwwWario]

Ganondorf is one of my mains. He is extremely cool in my opinion. But as we all know, he was one of the lowest tiers in Brawl, which annoyed me. Does anyone know how Dorfy plays compared to Brawl? Is he faster? Gained some Super Armour maybe? I heard rumors that his Warlock Punch has gained some Super Armour. God, hope that's true.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

It has gained SA, but I'm totally certain in what way. I've heard conflicting reports.

He is faster though, just like the rest of the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-tilt and Jab are a bit faster. You can't AC D-air unless we missed something. F-air and N-air has less landing lag. Flame Choke does a lot more damage and leads to D-tilt combos on EVERYONE afaik. Both D-tilt and F-tilt kill a bit earlier. Dash attack, D-air, and U-air iirc however are a bit weaker in this game. Smashes still wreck face when they hit you.

He's still not very good against zoning, and unfortunately his grab range didn't seem to improve noticeably, but ledge changes make him harder to gimp meaning you get to survive a pretty long time usually. He's still entirely about calculated risks for the most part, but he racks up damage faster than in Brawl when he does catch you meaning overall he has more opportunities to make big reads that can kill you really fast.

 

[WwwWario]

F-tilt and Jab are a bit faster. You can't AC D-air unless we missed something. F-air and N-air has less landing lag. Flame Choke does a lot more damage and leads to D-tilt combos on EVERYONE afaik. Both D-tilt and F-tilt kill a bit earlier. Dash attack, D-air, and U-air iirc however are a bit weaker in this game. Smashes still wreck face when they hit you.

He's still not very good against zoning, and unfortunately his grab range didn't seem to improve noticeably, but ledge changes make him harder to gimp meaning you get to survive a pretty long time usually. He's still entirely about calculated risks for the most part, but he racks up damage faster than in Brawl when he does catch you meaning overall he has more opportunities to make big reads that can kill you really fast.

Hm, good to hear! Maybe I now can use Ganondorf with confidence in competitive situations without worrying about him being alot worse than my opponent.

 

[coldmeizer]

from everything I have read so far(waiting for wii u release to actually play)ganon is going to(hopefully) be a viable character in tournament play. i doubt he will be a tournament winner just because of his risk/reward system but a good ganon will always be a spectacle to watch. in short, MURDER MURDER MURDER

 

[HeavyLobster]

Nowhere to go but up.

 

[Morbi]

It is difficult to discern his changes from watching footage; however, if the rumors are to be accurate, he improves fairly significantly. The most noticeable change regarding his viability would have to be the new ledge mechanic, that alone makes him more viable.

 

[JasnJazz]

I have my fingers crossed that this will be the age of the 'Dorf! Maybe he can step out of Captain Falcons shadow.

 

[Burruni]

With minor speed upgrades, small changes here and there in the moveset (I STILL wish for a U-Tilt that isn't terrible), and namely the new Ledge mechanic, Ganondorf is going to be a mid tier monster in my estimation. He still lacks the double-jump restore from Down+B that was cut in Brawl and he still has some of his clunkiness. He'll surely be better than his Brawl incarnation, but with the engine of Sm4sh he may still end up outclassed by a number characters. Raise 'em high, men! We may rest in the middle of the tier pool but we'll show 'em that Ganondorf has so much raw power that him swinging a would just make things unfair!

 

[Daeyrat]

And how is Ganon in Team and FFAs?
I know Ike was mid in Brawl for 1x1, but he was a monster in FFAs

 

[Chauzu]

I've played a few games with Ganondorf. Still sooo slow but definately buffed.

Some things I have noticed...

- Dash attack has super armor (?)
- Side Special - d-tilt seems to be a legit combo at any percent, never failed it so far
- Moves overall feels quicker
- Ganondorf deals so much damage and takes ages to kill

Probs old news but didn't play much Ganondorf in Brawl (although I mained him in Melee) but overall I'm happy he is better.

 

[Terotrous]

Side B is way worse, you can immediately tech it now, so it doesn't even lead to mixups. See here:

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/569967699?t=44m

Even the air version can be teched and leads to nothing.


He has also lost the trick where Down B restored your double jump, and has gotten no other recovery buffs, so his recovery is easily one of the worst in the game. Despite being heavy, he actually has among the game's worst survivability and is incredibly susceptible to being gimped.

I suspect he's bottom tier to be honest, which is unfortunate because I always found him really fun to use.

 

[Daeyrat]

if they tech, you can attack them still. Still a mixup. It's harder to perform a followup, but the guaranteed damage has been increased.
The Down B restoration is a melee technique, not a Brawl one, so this is one wasn't a smash4 nerf.
Doesn't seem bottom. He looks like a sf4 grappler. Has trouble getting in because he's so bad overall, but the raw power eventually kills.

Btw, Ganoncide is buffed. The enemy always dies first now.

 

[Terotrous]

if they tech, you can attack them still. Still a mixup. It's harder to perform a followup, but the guaranteed damage has been increased

I dunno, they can tech before the move's animation even ends, so I'm not sure if a "true" tech chase is possible. It looks like they have time to spot dodge before your follow-up would hit even on a correct read.

Btw, Ganoncide is buffed. The enemy always dies first now.

I did see that, that occurs a bit later in the video I posted. That's something, at least.


I still think Ganon got comparatively few buffs compared to characters who were already better than him, and he got some inexplicable nerfs as well. It just doesn't bode all that well for him to place high.

 

[Daeyrat]

I somewhat agree. In every video I saw, he was beaten to a pulp. Got hit like a 100 times, but, somehow, he hit the enemy 5 times and compensated.

I guess the only way to see if the tech chase is possible is in a video dedicated to it. Hope it's possible.

Anyway, I don't think he's that bad. He's not better than anyone for 1x1, but can hold his own somehow. If only his Custom Moves are allowed... maybe we could slightly tweak him. Otherwise, he remains a FFA-centered character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, they can tech before the move's animation even ends, so I'm not sure if a "true" tech chase is possible. It looks like they have time to spot dodge before your follow-up would hit even on a correct read.



I did see that, that occurs a bit later in the video I posted. That's something, at least.


I still think Ganon got comparatively few buffs compared to characters who were already better than him, and he got some inexplicable nerfs as well. It just doesn't bode all that well for him to place high.

True techchases are guaranteed on Flame Choke. But they require reads.

Your frame advantage for tech in place is as I recall identical for them not teching at all, the main difference being you can land grabs on people who tech in place. Techchase Flame Choke and Wizkick do reach people who techroll away. And you can F-smash people who techroll towards you.

 

[Quillion]

So he's still slow as f***. Therefore, he still sucks.

Maybe they were right in giving Bowser more speed; Mighty Glaciers just don't work well at all in Smash Bros.

 

[Morbi]

Side B is way worse, you can immediately tech it now, so it doesn't even lead to mixups. See here:

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/569967699?t=44m

Even the air version can be teched and leads to nothing.


He has also lost the trick where Down B restored your double jump, and has gotten no other recovery buffs, so his recovery is easily one of the worst in the game. Despite being heavy, he actually has among the game's worst survivability and is incredibly susceptible to being gimped.

I suspect he's bottom tier to be honest, which is unfortunate because I always found him really fun to use.

Did he not lose the ability to restore his double jump with his down-special in Brawl?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So he's still slow as f***. Therefore, he still sucks.

Maybe they were right in giving Bowser more speed; Mighty Glaciers just don't work well at all in Smash Bros.

Bowser still probably won't rank that high in the future, because being huge is one of the worst disadvantages you can have in Smash. Means you get spaced by EVERYTHING. Especially projectiles, which prevent Bowser from just running up and winning footsies.

 

[Dr_Falchion]

So he's still slow as f***. Therefore, he still sucks.

Maybe they were right in giving Bowser more speed; Mighty Glaciers just don't work well at all in Smash Bros.

The problem with "Mighty Glaciers" like Ganondorf is that for them to be viable, they have to be completely overpowered when they do land a hit. Nintendo just hasn't done that yet - but it could happen.

Honestly, for either Smash 5 or if they rebalance Smash 4, I'd like to see Ganondorf's moves get higher priority. If they had priority over most moves, you could simply play him by timing your moves ahead of time - you see a character coming toward you, you hit the button before they actually get there, and by the time they get to you your move has actually activated and you interrupt their attack. It would make for some really great Mind Games.

And give him the Dead Man's Volley. A projectile would really balance him out. My dream Ganondorf would be a mix of Falcondorf and Ike - change a couple of smash attacks and tilts to sword attacks, but not all of them.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Bowser still probably won't rank that high in the future, because being huge is one of the worst disadvantages you can have in Smash. Means you get spaced by EVERYTHING. Especially projectiles, which prevent Bowser from just running up and winning footsies.

By that analogy, Ganon would be exact bottom. I believe that the bigger chars like Bowser and King Dedede will actually place very high.

 

[A2ZOMG]

By that analogy, Ganon would be exact bottom. I believe that the bigger chars like Bowser and King Dedede will actually place very high.

I'm honestly not seeing lot of potential from DeDeDe. His pokes got nerfed in this game, and the only real buff he got was a better recovery. Gordo toss is cool until you realize that you can hit them back to DeDeDe, and overall DeDeDe doesn't have very reliable KO moves unless I missed something.

Bowser is strong, but will have hard counters that he likely can't win. Robin, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Link, and Toon Link all look like very uphill battles for him.

I'm also pretty sure that Ganondorf right now is still one of the worst characters in the game. He's not QUITE completely unviable as far as I know because general mechanics changes make the game less brutal for him, but I don't see him as having many, if any favorable matchups for the most part.

 

[Daeyrat]

Being big and taking lots of damage is not necessarily a problem. The greater metagame is "knock your opponent off the screen"
Big characters lack several skils, but now they're ultimate machines to follow this rule.
In smash 4 (specifically) they seem to be able to survive long enough to land a deadly blow. Doesn't matter if you're hit 10x more than your opponent. You can only judge from results.

Something similar happened in Street Fighter when Zangief was a good character. He took lots of hits, but managed to land his wakeup mixup game and finish in seconds once he got in.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main issue is, none of Ganon's moves are easy to land. Getting in on people who shield is still very difficult because it's hard to get in range to grab. Jab and D-tilt are certainly decent enough, but alone aren't going to easily break defenses. Flame Choke is okay, except it can be reactively spotdodged and punished.

Yes, Ganondorf theoretically can make reads that kill you at 80% if he manages to get in. It's just very difficult to get to that point in the first place. And while Ganon is less vulnerable to edghogging, he is still pretty glaringly vulnerable to juggles and edgeguards. Those are all situations where he's liable to taking more damage at the very least.

That being said, in theory, I believe his matchup against R.O.B. in this game may in fact have a small chance of being favorable, though it's more a statement as to how significantly R.O.B. is hurt by system changes. In short, Ganondorf can definitely KO R.O.B. much more easily than the other way around when R.O.B. has a recovery that does not benefit from anti-edgehog mechanics, and when he's very bad at getting up from the ledge.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The way Ganondorf is suppose to play is very different from the rest of the cast, the only other character I see similar to him is Ike.

Wait it out, bait, and as far as I can tell, Ganon can do that much better this time. But I've also noticed that as compared to brawl, his kill power has diminished a lot.

 

[Daeyrat]

So far characters have been surviving more. Compared, his kill power is not weaker. He also gets more benefits from rage than others.

 

[Terotrous]

Something similar happened in Street Fighter when Zangief was a good character. He took lots of hits, but managed to land his wakeup mixup game and finish in seconds once he got in.

The thing with Zangief is that once he gets in, he's actually very strong AND fast (SPD has near instant startup, Lariat starts up fast and beats a lot of things, his wakeup options are scary, etc), while Ganondorf is never really that threatening even if he gets in, his damage output is not really exceptional among the cast. That's why he needs to get better follow-ups off a Side B, it should really be dangerous for him get in and start landing those.


Incidentally, Bowser is kind of like a Zangief now, as he has been drastically sped up. He's got some really strong close range pokes that are both fast and powerful, so you really don't want to let him get in.

 

[Daeyrat]

Its not about getting in, its about doing the damage even if it takes long

Edit: Have any of you guys seen Zero playing as ganon against Dog? Shows exactly what I'm talking about.
Ganon took lots of damage before actually touching the dog. Touched once or twice and got hit a lot more again. Then finished him in 2 or 3 attacks again.

In the end, it's something like:

Regular characters deal 5-8% damage. They must take Ganon up to 150% to kill him, which means 23 hits
Ganon deals around 18%. He need them at 90% to kill. 5 hits.

They're even around 1:5

 

[Terotrous]

Most characters deal more than 8% damage though. A smash attack from anyone tends to deal around 14-18%.

Also, you frequently don't need 150% to kill Ganon, since his recovery is pretty bad. I've seen him get killed at ~110% quite a few times.

Really, I think the character you're describing is Donkey Kong, not Ganon. DK takes forever to die and hits pretty hard, so he might be fine.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most characters deal more than 8% damage though. A smash attack from anyone tends to deal around 14-18%.

Also, you frequently don't need 150% to kill Ganon, since his recovery is pretty bad. I've seen him get killed at ~110% quite a few times.

Really, I think the character you're describing is Donkey Kong, not Ganon. DK takes forever to die and hits pretty hard, so he might be fine.

DK's recovery is also pretty bad though, especially since he basically doesn't have the option of landing on stage in this game. So it's not like he's free from being punished heavily offstage as well.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So far characters have been surviving more. Compared, his kill power is not weaker. He also gets more benefits from rage than others.

You're wrong. Compared to Brawl, and compared to the new methods and actuality of survivability in this game, Ganon will have a tougher time killing.

Most of his KO moves in Brawl were nerfed in power this game. His Dash attack, DAir and UAir are examples. They were brilliant kill moves if you used them properly because of their speed and/or sheerknock back alone.

With that said, Ganon will have an easier time landing hits this game. He may also kill better, faster and more efficiently than in Brawl. Some of his moves which could ha e KOed in Brawl but the moves itself were not as good have actually improved. His aerial Wizkick is an example. BAir, too - this move has improved drastically in speed and power from what I can tell. And I'm quite sure that BAir, as the metagame advances, will be one of Ganon's most use KOing move.

The rage effect will benefit Ganon, just as it will benefit all other characters. But during some cases, it will indeed benefit heavy hitters more.

Basically, Ganon has lower kill power in this game keeping in mind the attributes and mechanics of THIS game, as he did compared to brawl. But, Ganon will land hits with more ease, and have an easier time avoiding projectiles and other moves. So there is a trade off, and we can tell that this trade would definitely help Ganon more, but we won't be able to tell if this trade off would be more beneficial overall and as the metagame advances. It may, or it may not.

 

[Daeyrat]

I meant compared to other characters, not brawl when refering to kill power and benefits from rage.

My comparison is (Ganon x everyone else in Smash 4) x (Ganon x everyone else in Brawl)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I know what you meant, and the points I made talk about Ganon's KOing power in general.

I was comparing it to Brawl as an example of Ganon's overall ability to KO.

 

[Hydde]

Im just woried about rush characters like sheik and zero suit...damn they look sooooo strong and easy to use.

And is not like they lack kill moves because of being fast characters....

 

[WwwWario]

Its not about getting in, its about doing the damage even if it takes long

Edit: Have any of you guys seen Zero playing as ganon against Dog? Shows exactly what I'm talking about.
Ganon took lots of damage before actually touching the dog. Touched once or twice and got hit a lot more again. Then finished him in 2 or 3 attacks again.

In the end, it's something like:

Regular characters deal 5-8% damage. They must take Ganon up to 150% to kill him, which means 23 hits
Ganon deals around 18%. He need them at 90% to kill. 5 hits.

They're even around 1:5

Link? Can't find it on Youtube, and I'd love to see Ganondorf played by a pro

 

[Daeyrat]

Link? Can't find it on Youtube, and I'd love to see Ganondorf played by a pro

I can't give specific details about time, but it's Zero's stream. twitich.tv/zero
Another good ganondorf player is being showcased in the videos thread. Nico videos can be seen through mmcafe.net/nico
The player always takes a beating. Always. He wins in the end somehow.

 

[Hydde]

I can't give specific details about time, but it's Zero's stream. twitich.tv/zero
Another good ganondorf player is being showcased in the videos thread. Nico videos can be seen through mmcafe.net/nico
The player always takes a beating. Always. He wins in the end somehow.

Yup, i have seen some 2v2 with him using ganon.

And even when he takes a beating...he can deliver equal pain in response.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

He's the best character in the game, definitely unlocking him first.

 

[Daeyrat]

Where can I see the 2x2?

 

[Hydde]

Where can I see the 2x2?

i have his stream open all day and sometimes i look at it and get lucky