How I think we should handle all of these FD's

[AugsEU]

I have come up with an idea for how we should handle having so many FD's. The problem being this: each FD is too different to be considered the same, but each FD is too similar to be considered it's own stage.


Game 1:
For game 1, all variations of FD are striked except for the standard FD. Then the striking is done as usual.

All Other Games:
For these games, the loser of the previous match(the counter picker) gets to select a version of FD, then all the others get striked. Then the winner does his bans, then the counter-picker chooses a stage.

What this system allows is for us to be able to play on FD, but for FD to still be one stage in the banning system.

Any questions?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I agree. Certain characters have an inherent advantage on a flat stage. They should simply act as counterpicks. I'd also make the standard FD a counterpick as well

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

This opinion of mine comes more from a thematic side than as realistic as your choice, but I'd think it'd be cool if we saved the standard FD for Finals.

But your idea is pretty solid though.

 

[Wyntir]

If a stage is striked, both versions should be of that map

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

If a stage is striked, both versions should be of that map

I agree with this actually. Would make sense. That and there are so many other stages that you could pick via FD mode.

 

[Prism]

I'd actually like it if no Omega stages were used in tournaments. I like variety in my stages :L

 

[EdreesesPieces]

To me the best system is "if you ban one FD you ban them all, if you strike one FD you strike them all"

Are all the FD's the same size blast zones or no?

 

[Prism]

To me the best system is "if you ban one FD you ban them all, if you strike one FD you strike them all"

Are all the FD's the same size blast zones or no?

Don't think so. I'm almost positive they're slightly different.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'd actually like it if no Omega stages were used in tournaments. I like variety in my stages :L

So to have more variety, you want to limit what stages we use. Yeah that makes sense. /sarcasm

 

[Prism]

So to have more variety, you want to limit what stages we use. Yeah that makes sense. /sarcasm

That's not at all what I meant...

I'd rather have stages like Yoshi's Island and Battlefield, along with one Final Destination, than just a bunch of flat platforms, is what I was saying.

 

[UltiMario]

We probly should just not use Omega Modes in tourney

While the difference is minute, there IS a difference between a platform that extends into the blast zone and one that doesn't. Characters with wall jumps benefit from the former, and characters that can Scrooge benefit from the latter.

Just stick to FD and make the games consistent. Tournaments aren't about the scenery.

 

[Raijinken]

Treat them all the same until some significant reason is found not to do so. Also, go do some science and find out if they're all the same length or not, and if they have the same blast zones.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We probly should just not use Omega Modes in tourney

While the difference is minute, there IS a difference between a platform that extends into the blast zone and one that doesn't. Characters with wall jumps benefit from the former, and characters that can Scrooge benefit from the latter.

Just stick to FD and make the games consistent. Tournaments aren't about the scenery.

I can't be the only one to find it supremely ironic that Omega forms, created by Sakurai explicitly in order to cater somewhat to the competitive scene, could possibly be completely ignored by the same scene.

If they're to stay, I think it's paramount that they all be lumped under the FD umbrella for the purposes of stage striking. If FD is selected, then it could go to another round of selecting which FD, or the person who picked it can have free choice, or the first game can always go to the true FD, or whatever. But IMO it would be beyond silly to treat them as anything other than a single entity for striking.

 

[LancerStaff]

We probly should just not use Omega Modes in tourney

While the difference is minute, there IS a difference between a platform that extends into the blast zone and one that doesn't. Characters with wall jumps benefit from the former, and characters that can Scrooge benefit from the latter.

Just stick to FD and make the games consistent. Tournaments aren't about the scenery.

Testing has shown that the differences in size and blastzones are negligible. How do we handle the two FDs? Make them separate stages. Floating FDs are starter, grounded ones are counterpick, to prevent things from being biased to the camping side. Heck, one could argue that the grounded ones should be starter. The game is balanced around the stage, another couldn't hurt, could it? It might even be necessary if camping characters are nerfed too much.

 

[LancerStaff]

EDIT: Derp. Delete please

No, that's what I was talking about when I was talking about the two FDs. Pillar types and floating types should be recognized as different stages, at the least.

 

[shapular]

Testing has shown that the differences in size and blastzones are negligible. How do we handle the two FDs? Make them separate stages. Floating FDs are starter, grounded ones are counterpick, to prevent things from being biased to the camping side. Heck, one could argue that the grounded ones should be starter. The game is balanced around the stage, another couldn't hurt, could it? It might even be necessary if camping characters are nerfed too much.

For many matchups, floating vs. pillar FD will make little to no difference. That would make banning FD effectively pointless, which screws over characters who are bad on FD.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I agree. Certain characters have an inherent advantage on a flat stage. They should simply act as counterpicks. I'd also make the standard FD a counterpick as well

Like who...? I notice no real apparent advantage to any character in FG just because we only have FD.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Like who...? I notice no real apparent advantage to any character in FG just because we only have FD.

Keep in mind that I'm only saying this based on previous Smash games and from the streams I've watched of Smash 4. Characters with spammable projectiles are at an advantage in FD since the opponent would have no platforms to escape from the line of fire. Also, combo heavy characters would be at a disadvantage since the lack of platforms would make it more difficult for them to follow up on their attacks.

 

[LancerStaff]

For many matchups, floating vs. pillar FD will make little to no difference. That would make banning FD effectively pointless, which screws over characters who are bad on FD.

It's still a difference. Really, I just want to see two FDs in the new meta.

Keep in mind that I'm only saying this based on previous Smash games and from the streams I've watched of Smash 4. Characters with spammable projectiles are at an advantage in FD since the opponent would have no platforms to escape from the line of fire. Also, combo heavy characters would be at a disadvantage since the lack of platforms would make it more difficult for them to follow up on their attacks.

This all seems to be taken into account. Battlefield and such look like they won't be a viable as FD this time around.

 

[Dax]

Like who...? I notice no real apparent advantage to any character in FG just because we only have FD.

Like Little Mac.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like Little Mac.

He barely gets by with FD, lol. Without it he's toast.

 

[LinkNIvy]

To me the best system is "if you ban one FD you ban them all, if you strike one FD you strike them all"

Are all the FD's the same size blast zones or no?

I don't know about the blast zones, but the original FD is larger than a lot of the other FDs

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't know about the blast zones, but the original FD is larger than a lot of the other FDs

No, it's the same size, give or take a few pixels.

 

[Dax]

He barely gets by with FD, lol. Without it he's toast.

"barely"? Nah. Either way, I know he's bad elsewhere. The discussion isn't "are there overpowered characters on FD?" though

 

[Deleted member 245254]

"barely"? Nah. Either way, I know he's bad elsewhere. The discussion isn't "are there overpowered characters on FD?" though

It's not but it was the crutch of an argument in this thread.

Little Mac does not have an "inherent advantage" on FD lol.

 

[AugsEU]

My system is pretty much, if you ban FD you ban all of them, but then if you don't ban FD, the counter-picker chooses which FD.

Even if all of the FD's are the same, my system still holds up. I think I should draw a picture to explain it fully, because the system I suggest keeps variety but doesn't eliminate the different FD stages. If you consider each FD as a stage then there won't be any variety as 90% of stages would be FD like that. But you ban all Omega stages then you are getting rid of a bunch of perfectly good stages.

Images to explain:
Imagine that there are 6 stages but only three are legal, Stage A, Stage B and FD.

Here is an image to explain Game 1 of each set:
http://i.imgur.com/n10kYrH.png

Here is an image to explain Games past game 1:
http://i.imgur.com/Lx5MWYt.png

Note how that despite the fact that stage B was striked, B Omega wasn't

All clear?

 

[Reila]

Good thing FD stages can't be banned in online matches, because IMO they are fine. It is not like Battlefield doesn't favor certain characters as well.

Just stick to FD and make the games consistent. Tournaments aren't about the scenery.

I don't know about you, but playing a game in the same freaking stage over and over again isn't my definition of fun. So yes, scenery and music are important.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

I still prefer that one idea I heard. If you ban that particular stage then you shouldn't be allowed to use it or its FD variant. I personally like having more stages to play on honestly because FD and Battlefield only gets boring fast. Besides characters don't have MASSIVE advantages on FD that we know of so far.

 

[AugsEU]

I still prefer that one idea I heard. If you ban that particular stage then you shouldn't be allowed to use it or its FD variant.

So what? If a stage isn't banned then I can go to it's FD variant? That would basically mean FD is always going to be =>50% of the stages. I don't want so many FD's, but I do want to ruleset that allows each one to be played(My rules)!

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

To be fair the 3DS version doesn't have many stages that are viable in my personal opinion. Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Final Destination, and Battlefield as starters. Possibly two more stages for counter picks. The good thing about the FD versions is that it does give us variety in the stages. People will get bored if they keep seeing Battlefield or FD. Using the FD versions gives us more options which is ultimately what we want.

An example of the FD versions being used would be CT Invitational. They used the new Earthbound stage (FD version), Tomadachi Life (FD version), Battlefield, FD, and Yoshi's Island for the most part. You'll see that the matches were not one sided for majority of the matches which is what people were mostly skeptical of. Oh Little Mac is going to wreck everyone on these FD stages. Yeah no. That wasn't the case at all. Little Mac was played once because he can't recover safely. That being said I think we should consider messing around with the FD versions. Just my opinion. You are entitled to you own.

 

[AugsEU]

That's my point as well. My rules allow people to go on any FD version! Meaning you will see every FD version with my rules. It's good for people who don't want FD to be 90% of matches and it's good for people who are like you and want every FD variation played! I really want all of the FD variations to be played!

 

[Burnsy]

I think there should only be normal FD and maybe 1 or 2 omega FDs legal depending on how different their layouts are. I know a few FD stages have walls instead of a sloped edge/floating island shape. Since a good number of characters have walljumps perhaps one of those might be able to coexist along as a second legal flat stage.

 

[Untouch]

The way ledges work makes gimping on certain FD stages different.
The NSMB FD level is angled, so gimping is easier, as it launches you downwards if you hit the will.

 

[hotdogturtle]

It does seem like somewhat of a waste to throw away this many potentially good stages just because they're too similar to each other, when we wouldn't have a problem if there were only 1 of them. It seems like there are two decent ways to handle this:

-All FDs (including FD and Omega stages) are considered 1 stage
-"Omega Stages" are considered 1 stage, and regular FD is considered its own stage

In either case, the person counterpicking Omega would choose which version to play on once the decision is made, and for later games all rules which apply to previously-used stages would apply to all of them collectively.

I realize that having essentially 2 FD clones legal would slightly skew the metagame compared to what we're used to (with only 1 platformless stage), but in a game where we're so desperate for more legal stages, this might be a viable option after all. Of course there are other options, such as trying to separate "wall FD" "slanted FD" "round FD" into different stages, but that just gets messy when we have to figure out which specific ones would be the legal ones.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i'm not sur eif i said it here, but first of all we need to categorize all FDs

if necessary, ban some (i heard complains about water or acid being too intrusive); and just go from random within a category... IF soemoen wants to go to FD.

 

[Ghoti]

Is there any evidence that shows that certain characters have an advantage with either a floating Ω stage or a pillar Ω stage?
By this, I'm asking, are there any Ω stages which give any character a noticeable advantage?

 

[Chiroz]

I liked the idea someone in this thread posted: We separate the FDs into 2 groups depending on ledges. Basically: Floating Omegas, and Grounded Omegas (Pillars) There are certain intricacies of characters with double jumps and wall clings which will fare different in stages which are floating against those that are grounded.

Is there any evidence that shows that certain characters have an advantage with either a floating Ω stage or a pillar Ω stage?
By this, I'm asking, are there any Ω stages which give any character a noticeable advantage?

Yes, wall jumpers and wall clingers, plus characters with a vertical recovery have a great advantage in a pillar stage. Character which have none of these don't prefer any of the 2, but if fighting against an opponent which has one of these you would probably want to take them to a floating omega form.



I will make a list of the groups and see how it looks :D.





Edit: Okay, I have made a list of the different types of FD.

There are 2 types of Omegas. Both of these types have different properties between each other, but all stages inside the group type is identical to the another inside the same group (except for visuals). These are the 2 types:

Type 1 - "Floating Edges" - Omegas which are floating in the air and also have angled underbellies.

Type 2 - "Grounded (Pillar) Edges" - Omegas which have non-angled underbellies that drop to the bottom of the screen making the stage appear "grounded" or like a "pillar".



Floating:
Battle Field
Final Destination
3D Land
Arena Ferox
Game & Watch 3
Mario Kart
Kongo Jungle
Spirit Tracks
Brinstar
Corneria
Prism Tower
Mute City
Magicant
Gaur Plains



Grounded (Pillar):
NSMB
Paper Mario
Mario Brothers Stage 1
Gerudo Valley
Yoshi's Island
Dream Land
N's Castle
Reset Bomb Forest
WarioWare
Pikmin Forest
Tortimer's Island
Boxing Ring
NES Stage
Nintendogs
Find Mii
Tomodachi Life
Pictochat 2
Green Hill Zone
Wily's Castle
PacMaze



My suggestion is that we treat these 2 groups as 2 separate stages since they have different properties. Banning "Floating Omegas" bans all of the floating ones, including *FD itself, but doesn't ban any of the grounded ones. Banning the grounded ones doesn't ban any of the floating ones. Banning both bans all of the omegas.

* FD is for all intents and purpose just a "Floating Omega" stage.

 

[UltiMario]

AFAIK theres no lips in Smash 4. Every character slides up like they would on Melee FD. Theres only 2 types of FDs by your descriptions.

 

[Chiroz]

AFAIK theres no lips in Smash 4. Every character slides up like they would on Melee FD. Theres only 2 types of FDs by your descriptions.

Oh, well, I can't really test it, I was going by "visuals". I guess I could have tested the lips of Battlefield on the demo.

Ummm.... I'll edit my post then. Thanks for the info.

After some testing, there is in fact no lip on the angled stages. Even though they have different "visuals" they all act exactly the same, meaning there's only 2 subgroups.



Done! Just edited the above post . Thanks for the info @ UltiMario .

 

[Hayzie]

It's not but it was the crutch of an argument in this thread.

Little Mac does not have an "inherent advantage" on FD lol.

I think people are quite picky, too. "buh-bu .. too good "
Given his terrible, yet worst recovery in the game... I think the balance is there. What is Mac going to get.... no damage the entire match? Get him off the platform and your air game is more relaxed than your normal air game.