How "hardcore" would Smash 4 need to be for you to make the switch?

[greenluigiman2]

What, you don't like games with high skill ceilings?

I didn't say that.

I 'd because he said he wanted the gameplay faster than Melee...
Melee's speed is as fast as a Smash game needs to go up to.

 

[Jaedrik]

I didn't say that.
I 'd because he said he wanted the gameplay faster than Melee...
Melee's speed is as fast as a Smash game needs to go up to.

You don't like games with higher skill ceilings than Melee?

 

[greenluigiman2]

You don't like games with higher skill ceilings than Melee?

Do you have dyslexia?

 

[Reznor]

I didn't say that.

I 'd because he said he wanted the gameplay faster than Melee...
Melee's speed is as fast as a Smash game needs to go up to.

I said that too be funny man

 

[D-idara]

If the game becomes as hardcore or more hardcore than Melee, it'd encourage me to NOT buy it.

 

[210stuna]

As long as the "Hardcore" button is able to be turned off/on then I am fine.

But seriously...People ITT: I can't L-cancel or wavedash successfully to notice a difference in gameplay, waaah make Smash 4 easy for me waah.

 

[Big-Cat]

It should send electrical impulses through my body every time I fail to L-Cancel.

 

[Jaedrik]

Do you have dyslexia?

You think Melee's speed is as fast as Smash should be, this implies you would not like a game faster than Melee.
Speed usually always translates to higher skill ceiling, therefore you would not like a Smash game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Is this correct?

 

[Vkrm]

If the game becomes as hardcore or more hardcore than Melee, it'd encourage me to NOT buy it.

Are you so selfish that you would enjoy smash 4 if it were restricted to your preferences.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I shall predict this will become a Brawl vs Melee thread. If so, I shall quote my own post later and lol at everyone.

Seriously, when will this community EVER move on?

Smash 64 is a great game

Melee is a great game

Brawl is a great game

They all have something different. They may not be for you personally, but they all offer an experience people can enjoy that is suited for their taste, be grateful we have the options and not every single game is the same.

We already have the beginnings of Wii U vs 3DS starting, why must we continue this insanely old debate? It's time to MOVE ON.

 

[Reznor]

I shall predict this will become a Brawl vs Melee thread. If so, I shall quote my own post later and lol at everyone.

Seriously, when will this community EVER move on?

Smash 64 is a great game

Melee is a great game

Brawl is a great game

They all have something different. They may not be for you personally, but they all offer an experience people can enjoy that is suited for their taste, be grateful we have the options and not every single game is the same.

We already have the beginnings of Wii U vs 3DS starting, why must we continue this insanely old debate? It's time to MOVE ON.

agreed lets all stop with the old debate and move onto the new one

3DS Smash vs WiiU Smash

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Everyone, please keep Melee vs Brawl flames to a bare minimum. We know what happens and lets snip it at the bud before it blows up.

 

[Smur]

I used to be a brawl die-hard, wouldn't play melee. When I DID play it, I would always lose, but I was young and never got the concept for L-Cancelling and other melee techs. When I was introduced to brawl in my early teen years, it was so easy to follow. I got compliments on how I was "good" at a young age and was finally able to compete with people. That got to my head.
Four years of that, and Project M came along. It really opened my eyes to what a good smash looks like. I've only been playing Project M for 3 months and I swear by it now..it's just a lot more fun. It even converted me to Melee, I CAN ACTUALLY PLAY MELEE NOW.
But seriously, once you learn to Wavedash, L-Cancel and bust out combos, flying all over the screen with your dashes and cancels, you'll swear that it's a better game.
I tried playing Brawl the other day and it....it was really bad. Only took a couple weeks to change my mind from 4 YEARS.

As for the topic, I know we're not getting another melee, (that actually gets me really sad) but so far from the videos, it's looking decent . Just looks like a faster brawl to me though, and now that I look back, brawl needs a lot more than a speed change.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The core would have to be tougher to chew through than a jawbreaker.
In all seriousness, I won't be able to resist the temptation of Megaman's unique fighting style.
I'll come crawling back to Project M on all fours if the online is total garbage in the wii u game.

Dolphin Melee online (1 frame of lag minimum) > Brawl/Project M online (6 frames minimum, usually way more)

 

[Big-Cat]

I used to be a brawl die-hard, wouldn't play melee. When I DID play it, I would always lose, but I was young and never got the concept for L-Cancelling and other melee techs. When I was introduced to brawl in my early teen years, it was so easy to follow. I got compliments on how I was "good" at a young age and was finally able to compete with people. That got to my head.
Four years of that, and Project M came along. It really opened my eyes to what a good smash looks like. I've only been playing Project M for 3 months and I swear by it now..it's just a lot more fun. It even converted me to Melee, I CAN ACTUALLY PLAY MELEE NOW.
But seriously, once you learn to Wavedash, L-Cancel and bust out combos, flying all over the screen with your dashes and cancels, you'll swear that it's a better game.
I tried playing Brawl the other day and it....it was really bad. Only took a couple weeks to change my mind from 4 YEARS.

As for the topic, I know we're not getting another melee, (that actually gets me really sad) but so far from the videos, it's looking decent . Just looks like a faster brawl to me though, and now that I look back, brawl needs a lot more than a speed change.

At the very least, we don't necessarily need to have Smash 4 be like Melee. It can easily be just as competitive and such as Melee, but in a different and probably much more balanced way.

If you ask me, had Melee been as balanced as, say, Guilty Gear, I don't think the game's input speed would be as high, but the number of mains for characters would even out.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

At the very least, we don't necessarily need to have Smash 4 be like Melee. It can easily be just as competitive and such as Melee, but in a different and probably much more balanced way.

If you ask me, had Melee been as balanced as, say, Guilty Gear, I don't think the game's input speed would be as high, but the number of mains for characters would even out.

What do you mean by "balanced"? Like, number of viable characters? Because that's completely unrelated to a game's competitive merits.

 

[Oddyesy]

I don't give a damn if the game is hardcore or not. It just needs to be fun.

 

[Big-Cat]

What do you mean by "balanced"? Like, number of viable characters? Because that's completely unrelated to a game's competitive merits.

Well, I'm talking more than the number of viable characters. Things like finally doing something about chain grabs (or perhaps nothing for you purists), not making the shine or rest a one frame attack, removing the L-Canceling requirement and reducing landing recovery all together (oh, did I open a can of worms?), making wavedashing a more "deliberate" input than a physics exploitation, etc.

By reducing the need for some of these inputs, the game might not be seen as so hardcore from an execution standpoint, but the strategy, which is the heart and soul of competitive play, would remain intact mostly. This is my opinion though.

 

[Vkrm]

By reducing the need for some of these inputs, the game might not be seen as so hardcore from an execution standpoint, but the strategy, which is the heart and soul of competitive play, would remain intact mostly. This is my opinion though.

This wouldn't be true in ggx or marvel? Or is it okay for those games to put an emphasis on execution?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Well, I'm talking more than the number of viable characters. Things like finally doing something about chain grabs (or perhaps nothing for you purists), not making the shine or rest a one frame attack, removing the L-Canceling requirement and reducing landing recovery all together (oh, did I open a can of worms?), making wavedashing a more "deliberate" input than a physics exploitation, etc.

By reducing the need for some of these inputs, the game might not be seen as so hardcore from an execution standpoint, but the strategy, which is the heart and soul of competitive play, would remain intact mostly. This is my opinion though.

Ignoring your desprate flamebaiting for personal attacks (though I'm not sure why you'd call a Melee/Brawl+/Brawl-/SDRemix/PM player a purist) and shoehorned Melee bashing, I think you're mixing up mechanics with game balance, and even then attacks in a vacuum are meaningless from a balance standpoint (psst, when everyone's super, no one is).

I agree with you on auto reduced land lag but CG's are fine if they're like Melee UThrow juggles where the victim can go in a huge number of directions and torwards platforms but Brawl DDD CG's would be really dumb to have again.

Wavedashing would be fine the way it is, it's a really organic feeling movement option and adding more buttons instead of initiating it from a jump would take away both the depth it offers and the 3 button simplicity of Smash.

 

[Big-Cat]

The purist thing was simply for those who really don't want to see "radical" changes made to the Smash Bros. series or perhaps specifically the Melee template. It was by no means bashing. The L-Canceling was more of bashing the idea of it being a skill factor of any actual merit (in my opinion, it's bad design). But no, I think mechanics do play a large factor in the game's balance. Sometimes the mechanics and limitations are what would make the game much more balanced and sometimes more diverse.

I honestly have no problems with mixup throws, but I really think there needs to be a throw escape by this point in the series.

 

[Z1GMA]

Double . . . .

 

[Z1GMA]

Make offense pay off - not screw you like in Brawl.

 

[Viceversa96]

Dolphin Melee online (1 frame of lag minimum) > Brawl/Project M online (6 frames minimum, usually way more)

YOU CAN PLAY MELEE ONLINE WITH DOLPHIN?!

 

[Viceversa96]

Dolphin Melee online (1 frame of lag minimum) > Brawl/Project M online (6 frames minimum, usually way more)

Lag caused me to double post

 

[greenluigiman2]

You think Melee's speed is as fast as Smash should be, this implies you would not like a game faster than Melee.
Speed usually always translates to higher skill ceiling, therefore you would not like a Smash game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Is this correct?

No

 

[Jaedrik]

No

More speed makes an execution element more difficult, as well as necessitating faster decision making and comprehension and analysis of what's going on on the screen, therefore it takes more skill.

 

[greenluigiman2]

More speed makes an execution element more difficult, as well as necessitating faster decision making and comprehension and analysis of what's going on on the screen, therefore it takes more skill.

Speed does make execution more difficult, I'm not denying that. But your posts imply that speed is the only thing that gives a game a higher skill ceiling. If I wanted a game that had a lot more techniques than Melee, but not more speed, that game would have a higher skill ceiling would it not? Therefore. Yes, I do want a game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Your argument is over. A winner is me.

 

[Conviction]

Speed does make execution more difficult, I'm not denying that. But your posts imply that speed is the only thing that gives a game a higher skill ceiling. If I wanted a game that had a lot more techniques than Melee, but not more speed, that game would have a higher skill ceiling would it not? Therefore. Yes, I do want a game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Your argument is over. A winner is me.

If the techniques had a large frame to be executed then technically they wouldn't make the skill ceiling raise. Shortening the frame space to execute things make it harder (speed). If I could Shoryuken with a 60 frames for inputs still go through, then, no you're wrong.

Drop the holier than thou attitude while you are at it.

 

[Jaedrik]

Speed does make execution more difficult, I'm not denying that. But your posts imply that speed is the only thing that gives a game a higher skill ceiling. If I wanted a game that had a lot more techniques than Melee, but not more speed, that game would have a higher skill ceiling would it not? Therefore. Yes, I do want a game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Your argument is over. A winner is me.

My post implies no such thing, you're projecting that assumption onto me, you are in effect deluding yourself and strawmanning.
I wasn't even arguing with you, I'm not going to argue with you about what you think, the goal of my posts was to get at this, do you want a higher skill ceiling? The question was up in the air because speed is generally associated with a higher skill ceiling, due to its easy and observable influence on skill-based games, unlike many other factors such as your nondescript "techniques", which have yet to be qualified.
So, you want the skill ceiling to be raised, but in ways other than speed? The question is answered and you have won nothing, nor will you win anything by detailing the techniques whereby a game would have a higher skill ceiling. Good day sir.

 

[Big-Cat]

If the techniques had a large frame to be executed then technically they wouldn't make the skill ceiling raise. Shortening the frame space to execute things make it harder (speed). If I could Shoryuken with a 60 frames for inputs still go through, then, no you're wrong.

Drop the holier than thou attitude while you are at it.

Actually, you could argue that having a large input window actually makes the game harder because you have to commit earlier than expected and your inputs have to be crisp. It's a stupid thing though.

Speed does play a role in skill, yes, but it's only a factor. If speed was THE key determinate in skill (and I know you don't think it is), then Hungry Hungry Hippos has more skill than Chess.

 

[Medaka444]

@Kuma: I've always found it much easier to input moves in Street Fighter IV or Tatsunoko vs. Capcom than in Skullgirls or SSF2THDR. Are inputs in the first two games large or small?

Reminds me of how a handful of reviewers criticized Melee for being so fast, as they felt it put more of an emphasis on "twitchy reactions" than planning ahead. People always have wildly varying ideas about what "legitimate" skill is.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't know about TvC, but SF4 has a 3 frame reversal window as opposed to ST which has a one frame reversal window, IIRC. There is also the 33 input shortcut for DPs in SF4. There might be a more generous buffer window in that game where ST would probably not have it.

Can't say anything on Skullgirls though that game is the one game that allows full standing 360 inputs.

 

[Conviction]

Actually, you could argue that having a large input window actually makes the game harder because you have to commit earlier than expected and your inputs have to be crisp. It's a stupid thing though.

Speed does play a role in skill, yes, but it's only a factor. If speed was THE key determinate in skill (and I know you don't think it is), then Hungry Hungry Hippos has more skill than Chess.

Of course you know I don't

Anyway, I wish there was a better way to explain. In that 60 frames you didn't have to commit. I'm saying that if all those techniques were useless (Brawl) then it doesn't make a difference. There are so many things you can do in that game but like only 10 things? are commonly used.

 

[Big-Cat]

So I'm a little lost here. I'm assuming you're wanting no more than a 5 frame buffer, am I right? You'd also like it if we only had a handful of versatile techniques instead of a bunch of situational ones?

 

[greenluigiman2]

If the techniques had a large frame to be executed then technically they wouldn't make the skill ceiling raise. Shortening the frame space to execute things make it harder (speed). If I could Shoryuken with a 60 frames for inputs still go through, then, no you're wrong.


Drop the holier than thou attitude while you are at it.

It automatically makes the skill ceiling raise because there's AT LEAST one more technique that you have to memorize in order to be successful. For example, if Tetris had 10 more different shaped blocks at your disposal, but the speed didn't change at all, that game would then have a higher skill ceiling because there's a much bigger chance at failure. Also, I don't have a "holier than thou" attitude.

My post implies no such thing

Yes it does. I said I don't want a game that's faster than Melee. And you made that out to mean that I didn't want a game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Even after the many times where I said "no" you still persisted with that same notion:

Me: "Melee's speed is as fast as a Smash game needs to go up to."
You: "So you don't like games with higher skill ceilings than Melee?"

Using basic reasoning, you thought that if I didn't want a game with a speed higher than Melee, then I didn't want a game with a higher skill ceiling, which implies that speed is the only thing that gives a game a higher skill ceiling.

 

[Conviction]

So I'm a little lost here. I'm assuming you're wanting no more than a 5 frame buffer, am I right? You'd also like it if we only had a handful of versatile techniques instead of a bunch of situational ones?

Nope. I'm just making the point that techniques don't always raise the skill ceiling if they are useless. I would love to have both versatile and situational techniques. It's just that Brawl lacked situational techs. Like I mentioned before, there were ton of things you could do but literally did nothing for your gameplay. Doop walking (not sure if that was the right name or not) was probably one of the worst things ever.

 

[Jaedrik]

Yes it does. I said I don't want a game that's faster than Melee. And you made that out to mean that I didn't want a game with a higher skill ceiling than Melee. Even after the many times where I said "no" you still persisted with that same notion:

Me: "Melee's speed is as fast as a Smash game needs to go up to."
You: "So you don't like games with higher skill ceilings than Melee?"

You are jokes. Question =/= implication. I wasn't assuming, which is why I asked, no it wasn't rhetorical, it was so I could find out if you didn't like games with a higher skill ceiling. If you think you know my brain better than I do, you're mistaken sir. :3

Edit: Gosh, why ya gotta be so confrontational about everything?

 

[greenluigiman2]

You are jokes. Question =/= implication. I wasn't assuming, which is why I asked, no it wasn't rhetorical, it was so I could find out if you didn't like games with a higher skill ceiling. If you think you know my brain better than I do, you're mistaken sir. :3

Edit: Gosh, why ya gotta be so confrontational about everything?

Whatever dude. Let's let it go.

 

[Snakeyes]

As someone who greatly prefers Melee/Project M gameplay over Brawls...

I just want faster gameplay with more hitstun, faster falling speeds, AUTO L-Cancelling for easier followups, and a balanced roster. That's literally it.

Anyone who's expecting/hoping for Smash 4 to be as complex as Melee might as well just save money not even buy the game.

As someone that all but moved on to traditional fighters after seeing how bad Brawl turned out compared to previous games in the series, I couldn't agree more. Just give me gameplay that is similar to 64/Melee at a high level without the execution barriers and I'll be happy.