How Good ARE the Fox and Falco AIs?

[Darklink401]

I got Project M a couple of months ago. Right before Smash 3ds released, in fact. Played around with it for a bit, and it was awesome but then of course, cast it aside to try the new Smash.

Now I went back to it to play some turbo mode, cuz that's always hilarious. But then I played against level 9 Fox, because I know Fox and Falco are the best AI in the game (or so I've heard) and got bodied.

So I decided to take him on in a regular match environment, and played against Fox and Falco a few times using Link.

But my question is this;

How good ARE Fox and Falco? They've got advanced techniques, fast movements, and can combo you easily.

But is that all for show? As in, would they not be able to stand up at all to competitive players, simply due to the general AI exploits one can take advantage of?

Or are they better than that?

 

[IronChar]

IMO... REALLY good. not sure of falco but fox improved incredibly.

my friend once told me... "don't play computers they can't react to the meta and it creates passive smash players" I think while true, you can react and learn from these new ones the dev team has programed into the game.

3.5 is a wonderful thing

 

[Narpas_sword]

anyone decent should be able to beat them easily. They're still AI, you can still bait them into doing stupid things.

It just that while you bait, fox will SHDL you.


Falco still SD's like its his job.

 

[Darklink401]

anyone decent should be able to beat them easily. They're still AI, you can still bait them into doing stupid things.

It just that while you bait, fox will SHDL you.


Falco still SD's like its his job.

xD

Yeah it's insane how such a powerful-seeming AI, that can kill you so easily, also has such exploits....XP


So I assume playing agaisnt them frequently as my only opponents isn't really good practice?

 

[Mean Green]

How good ARE Fox and Falco? They've got advanced techniques, fast movements, and can combo you easily.

Not too shabby for AI

But is that all for show? As in, would they not be able to stand up at all to competitive players, simply due to the general AI exploits one can take advantage of?

Or are they better than that?

They are predictable. Let's take Fox, on FD. He'll always spam SHDL, and pause to blindly rush in once you move into his burst range.. most often to just use up-smash.
Even if a player wasn't abusing the AI, like narpas said, if he's decent then beating them won't be a problem. All you have to do is play neutral against them the whole time.

 

[Darklink401]

So are they the best AI to practice with, or would a normal level 9 CPU be better?

 

[Mean Green]

So I assume playing agaisnt them frequently as my only opponents isn't really good practice?

So are they the best AI to practice with, or would a normal level 9 CPU be better?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing an AI (Fox/Falco or anyone). As long as you always recognize what would and wouldn't work against a human player, and what actions should get you punished.

 

[Darklink401]

Thanks X3

For now I'll just keep feeling happy that my Link can beat a Fox that looks like a hardcore pro XP

And yeah, I'm definitely like, wait, shouldn't that have gotten punished? Omg Im an idiot XD

A lot. XP

 

[Foo]

Thanks X3

For now I'll just keep feeling happy that my Link can beat a Fox that looks like a hardcore pro XP

And yeah, I'm definitely like, wait, shouldn't that have gotten punished? Omg Im an idiot XD

A lot. XP

I really don't think the fox/falco AI is good to practice against. They are the hardest, but they will do nothing but build up bad habits. The fox/falco AI this patch are even more predictable. You can beat the fox AI by doing nothing but running up to him and shielding the upsmash he does every single time and then shield grabbing him.

 

[Mean Green]

Playing against them sure will build bad habits.. if you've never learned know how actual people would play against you. AI won't force you learn to space, sweetspot ledges, or out-think your opponent. But none of that matters if you're not a competitive player.

 

[MLGF]

You actually learn the exact distance of FireFox pretty nicely because the AI gets it perfect every time.
I've learned a lot about edgeguarding spacies by just playing around with Fox. It doesn't help in the neutral or anything, but the edge lessons I learned have helped.

 

[Foo]

Playing against them sure will build bad habits.. if you've never learned know how actual people would play against you. AI won't force you learn to space, sweetspot ledges, or out-think your opponent. But none of that matters if you're not a competitive player.

If you aren't a competitive player, why practice? He specifically said practice. Even if you aren't competitive, it's not fun to get repeatedly punished for bad habits you've developed over and over. I know someone who used to play against AI a ton and he came to school to play smash one day. He was decent, but had so many bad habits that everyone wrecked him. For over a two hours (before he kinda broke the habit) he would randomly charge up smash attacks and wait for you to run into them lol

 

[Darklink401]

If you aren't a competitive player, why practice? He specifically said practice. Even if you aren't competitive, it's not fun to get repeatedly punished for bad habits you've developed over and over. I know someone who used to play against AI a ton and he came to school to play smash one day. He was decent, but had so many bad habits that everyone wrecked him. For over a two hours (before he kinda broke the habit) he would randomly charge up smash attacks and wait for you to run into them lol

Most of my Melee experience was against CPUs. However, in Smash 4 I have gotten a lot of experience with actual people.

So I should be fine, right? ^-^

Also I'm definitely casual in Project M, but it's definitely fun to get better with Link, cuz I love him X3

Especially his up-B <33

 

[Mean Green]

If you aren't a competitive player, why practice? He specifically said practice. Even if you aren't competitive, it's not fun to get repeatedly punished for bad habits you've developed over and over. I know someone who used to play against AI a ton and he came to school to play smash one day. He was decent, but had so many bad habits that everyone wrecked him. For over a two hours (before he kinda broke the habit) he would randomly charge up smash attacks and wait for you to run into them lol

Assuming he wants to improve but doesn't fight competitive players, I'd originally said it's better to watch pro Melee than play the cpu. But then he said he was content with just beating a seemingly-pro AI.
And lol maybe all those charge smashes were just super extra hard reads

 

[Mean Green]

Most of my Melee experience was against CPUs. However, in Smash 4 I have gotten a lot of experience with actual people.

So I should be fine, right?

Not exactly, in M/PM you need to learn to play neutral since you're always in danger of getting killed easily. And then there's learning to DI/SDI everything and escape combos, etc.

Also I'm definitely casual in Project M, but it's definitely fun to get better with Link, cuz I love him X3

Especially his up-B <33

Spin2win amirite?

 

[Darklink401]

Not exactly, in M/PM you need to learn to play neutral since you're always in danger of getting killed easily. And then there's learning to DI/SDI everything and escape combos, etc.



Spin2win amirite?

In Smash 4 I'm actually praticing my neutral game, but DI and SDI are easy for me ^^

And yeah, Link's up B in Melee and PM send opponents at such a cheap angle <3

 

[Mean Green]

In Smash 4 I'm actually praticing my neutral game, but DI and SDI are easy for me ^^

And yeah, Link's up B in Melee and PM send opponents at such a cheap angle <3

Well that's good.. and yeah the edge guard gimps are so easy it's hilarious

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Not exactly, in M/PM you need to learn to play neutral since you're always in danger of getting killed easily. And then there's learning to DI/SDI everything and escape combos, etc.

But smash 4 has a huge emphasis on the neutral game, imo its harder in smash 4 than it is in pm/melee

 

[Mean Green]

But smash 4 has a huge emphasis on the neutral game, imo its harder in smash 4 than it is in pm/melee

Well, that's good

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Cpu's often wind up being my sparring partners since you can't really practice combos in training mode forever. And Fox is often one of the most hilarious since it's even easier to abuse than the others. Did you know that you can let Fox shoot lasers at Lucas until you get tired and decide to use PSI Magnet to heal back until the lasers push you off the ledge?

 

[Daban]

I got Project M a couple of months ago. Right before Smash 3ds released, in fact. Played around with it for a bit, and it was awesome but then of course, cast it aside to try the new Smash.

Now I went back to it to play some turbo mode, cuz that's always hilarious. But then I played against level 9 Fox, because I know Fox and Falco are the best AI in the game (or so I've heard) and got bodied.

So I decided to take him on in a regular match environment, and played against Fox and Falco a few times using Link.

But my question is this;

How good ARE Fox and Falco? They've got advanced techniques, fast movements, and can combo you easily.

But is that all for show? As in, would they not be able to stand up at all to competitive players, simply due to the general AI exploits one can take advantage of?

Or are they better than that?

Well, I got three stocks of the Fox bot (lvl 9) when I was making sure that my ISO worked. And that was on a computer, using the keyboard.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Well, I got three stocks of the Fox bot (lvl 9) when I was making sure that my ISO worked. And that was on a computer, using the keyboard.

If you tell how you got three stocks off a lv.9 Fox that would actually give information for the developers to figure out how to improve him. Just sayin'. Good grief though, I could never play any smash in a keyboard if I tried.

 

[Darklink401]

Well, I got three stocks of the Fox bot (lvl 9) when I was making sure that my ISO worked. And that was on a computer, using the keyboard.

ISO?

Also that's insane.

 

[Mean Green]

ISO?

Also that's insane.

iso is a file type that can hold things, i.e. a copy of SSB or Windows 7, to put on a CD

 

[GFooChombey]

Just taking this opportunity to thank @ KingClubber for all of his hard work on the AI. Can't wait to see other CPUs use their tricks and such in the future.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Just taking this opportunity to thank @ KingClubber for all of his hard work on the AI. Can't wait to see other CPUs use their tricks and such in the future.

I couldn't have worded it better. KingClubber is doing an amazing job.

 

[KingClubber]

Good Enough to be Surprisingly Bad at trying to be Good

 

[Daban]

ISO?

Also that's insane.

I can't take full credit though, the Fox SDed one of the times

The bots are really technical, and look really flashy, but they are quite easy to predict and/or just crouchcancel and punish.

 

[hemisphere]

Edit: whops sorry posted this in the wrong thread.

 

[5eb]

If you consider multishining like crazy and lasering non-stop good, then theyre great! Otherwise, theyre meh.

 

[Tobb99]

I got Project M a couple of months ago. Right before Smash 3ds released, in fact. Played around with it for a bit, and it was awesome but then of course, cast it aside to try the new Smash.

Now I went back to it to play some turbo mode, cuz that's always hilarious. But then I played against level 9 Fox, because I know Fox and Falco are the best AI in the game (or so I've heard) and got bodied.

So I decided to take him on in a regular match environment, and played against Fox and Falco a few times using Link.

But my question is this;

How good ARE Fox and Falco? They've got advanced techniques, fast movements, and can combo you easily.

But is that all for show? As in, would they not be able to stand up at all to competitive players, simply due to the general AI exploits one can take advantage of?

Or are they better than that?

They are very technical but they are also really stupid, I know after playing the for a while that fox will SHDL and when I come close he will up-smash like crazy, so i usually bait out the up-smash and punish. They are very technical as i said, but fox often stay at the very same spot shffl-shining and not posing any threat but more so committing himself. They have VERY obvious recovery, they never mix it up so it is really easy to really the illusion/phantasm. Likewise they never mix up tech patterns and have poor DI. And sometimes they SD randomly. As a decent player i have four-stocked them a lot of times, but sometimes i get KO by a random up-smash. Dependent on your skill level they can be good practicing against, if you want to practicing playing against falco's shield pressure and combo game on spacies I guess it's kind of good, but in general they are far worse then humans in my opinion.

 

[unlistedNiL]

very precise movements, 100% accurate with short hopping, ive seen falco's L-cancel percentage as high as 70% (he still lost- he really does SD like its hi job) they both do amazing pro combos such as that shine spam, wave shining and shine pillar-ing. but ya they r still AI's.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

In each build of PM, the AI has had several exploitable habits, but could actually be used to practice something in game (this is also true for vBrawl AI). Ironically, Fox in this build is a decent way to practice vs autopilot Falcos. If you ever get hit by anything, and are staying grounded, chances are it was a laser, or Fox upsmashing you because you didn't buffer an OoS input, and mistimed one because of the stun from Fox's lasers.