How do I teach others how to play on a semi-competent level?

[MLGF]

So here's the thing, in my group of friends I'm hands down the best Smasher. Everyone prefers Project M and such, but nobody really spends time to really understand mechanics like I.
That was the case, until one of them watched the Smash Brothers documentary which immediately got him interested on advanced techniques and play. Naturally, being the only one to care, he asked if he could practice with me.

I taught him the basics (wavedashing, reads, L-cancels, etc) and then he mained Zelda after he learned some tricks. He keeps playing me and I honestly think he's stagnating because his playstyle is extremely slow/defensive, with little application of advanced techs, while I keep trying to speed up my Ike. Instead of getting better, he just seems to be playing characters that are just a PITA for me to fight.

So obviously, as a teacher I'm doing something wrong. Can I ask some people who major in defensive orientated play style, how should he play?

 

[Saito]

I'm actually interested in this as well.

I'm in pretty much the same situation MLGF is in regarding my group of friends.

....Conveniently one of them also uses Zelda.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n4s5yB7ZkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiZLs2doK8E

Those two videos all have techniques for Melee, that should apply just dandy to PM. Outside of advanced tech, you just need to play against them. Punish them for being bad, and they should eventually adapt. Make sure they understand how you're exploiting their bad habits.

The fact that your friend is playing a defensive style, is one of the reasons you are wrecking him. You can't really do that, in this game. Defensive play is rewarded in Brawl, but in Melee and PM, you get much better rewards from being on the offensive.

 

[Rizner]

Have your friends watch www.twitch.tv/zerudahime when he's streaming -- fast moving zelda that can get them thinking about things. Other than that, take them to a tournament. Then they'll see that while their mechanics beat you sometimes, it doesn't always work vs all people. It also gives them motivation seeing others play and gets them more involved with the overall community. Should help their drive out a bit?

 

[Paradoxium]

Play styles are a branch off of personality/experience/instinct, the more he plays the more his play style will develop, it may or may not remain defensive.

I never had anyone to teach me, instead I had someone who I was determined to beat. Basically every time someone was better than me, I'd train my ass off until I could beat them consistently. So I don't think it's your job to teach him anything beyond techs and the basics, that's up to him to learn.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

I'm kinda in this situation too. Once I noticed that, no matter how many wins or 4 stocks I got, he never improved, I started calling out his decisions as we played. Like, bad recovery, you have to try and sweet spot better, or right there you could chain grabbed me. I also remind him of the good things of course, like good tech chases.

And I guess, if you dabble with most of the cast like I do, you just do mirror matches. That way there is no excuse as to why you can do something and he cant, because your both the same character. Any hype thing you do should really make them view the game / character in a new light and start playing more

 

[MLGF]

We do Sheik dittos, which he subs. I'm pretty comfortable in every character in the game except the defensive characters... so Olimar, Ivysaur, and Zelda so I can't help him in dittos. Anyways, it's really one sided because he keeps trying to do what he believes Shiek players do (chain grabs, fech follows, etc) while I just play naturally and use moves I know will hit/pressure/etc.
And I have called him out on his stupid play, he uses teleports to approach and lacks aerial precision. We literally played for like 5 hours and he did not improve of fix these obvious flaws. I believe that he needs to re-establish his foundational thinking of the character or switch to a character that's far more natural.
If it were just his techskill, I'd do the same thing that got me good at it. I'd make him play Brawl+ for a few hours and make him used to L-cancels, then quickly jump him to Project M so he has to L-Cancel himself for him to reach that same level of comfort in the mechanics. ((Note to self, try this out)) It's also his foundational thinking and he has this mindset where he keeps repeating the same mistakes instead of realizing these mistakes and utilizing other tools. I recall people telling me how good Ike's N-Air was and I went "Well OK, I'll use his Nair!" when I tell him to not teleport in my face his response is "But nobody does it so they won't see it coming!" and even after I convince him otherwise, he has this mindset that really makes it impossible for me to sway him.

I suppose the better question is how do I change someone's mindset when playing, as I never had this problem myself.

 

[Deleted member]

introduce them to smashboards. after that do nothing. forcing people that aren't really interested is just going to frustrate you in the long run. if they don't want to take the game seriously, that's fine, just put on pokeballs on FFA or something and enjoy the game.

 

[Xenozoa425]

My younger brother is the same way. He loves Project M way more than Melee or Brawl, but he doesn't put in any effort to get better at the game and learn the fundamentals. Whenever I play with him, it's only for 1 or 2 matches, then he either quits or wants to play by himself against the computer.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

My younger brother has this nasty tendency of putting everything into extremes i.e. someone says a character is struggles projectiles (he lurks on here), in his mind that means "this character is invalidated against anyone with a projectile unless I powershield". He also gets very discouraged since I picked up tech skill very quickly and he picks it up at a normal pace (it only took me a month or two to start incorporating wavedashing into my gameplay with DD, OoS, edgehogging, etc. and I picked up SHFFLing in a day, and I have never invested any time into training mode). He has gotten his Charizard up to a point where he can beat my Samus and Luigi sometimes and very rarely he'll beat my Wolf if my spacing is sloppy. He's trying to pick up ZSS but is having issues since she's a more technical and aggressive character. I really wish I could help him out but I really don't know how, especially since I don't play either character all that often

 

[Phyvo]

We do Sheik dittos, which he subs. I'm pretty comfortable in every character in the game except the defensive characters... so Olimar, Ivysaur, and Zelda so I can't help him in dittos. Anyways, it's really one sided because he keeps trying to do what he believes Shiek players do (chain grabs, fech follows, etc) while I just play naturally and use moves I know will hit/pressure/etc.
And I have called him out on his stupid play, he uses teleports to approach and lacks aerial precision. We literally played for like 5 hours and he did not improve of fix these obvious flaws. I believe that he needs to re-establish his foundational thinking of the character or switch to a character that's far more natural.
If it were just his techskill, I'd do the same thing that got me good at it. I'd make him play Brawl+ for a few hours and make him used to L-cancels, then quickly jump him to Project M so he has to L-Cancel himself for him to reach that same level of comfort in the mechanics. ((Note to self, try this out)) It's also his foundational thinking and he has this mindset where he keeps repeating the same mistakes instead of realizing these mistakes and utilizing other tools. I recall people telling me how good Ike's N-Air was and I went "Well OK, I'll use his Nair!" when I tell him to not teleport in my face his response is "But nobody does it so they won't see it coming!" and even after I convince him otherwise, he has this mindset that really makes it impossible for me to sway him.

I suppose the better question is how do I change someone's mindset when playing, as I never had this problem myself.

I think previous posters are probably in the right direction here with the social angle (tourny/friendlies/crew).

It wouldn't be exactly like a group intervention, but it seems the basic problem is this: he doesn't see you as the trainer to his athlete otherwise he'd do what you said every time. Instead you're just a friend and it's your word vs his. But if other people punished and commented on the same mistakes (whether individually at a tourny or together at a crew) now he's facing two different sources of authority: group majority and what actually happens to him as he plays new people and upBs at them. The more people tell him he's wrong the more likely he'll come around... although depending on the beating he takes he might need time to process it before he fesses up.

When it comes to changing people's opinions though nothing is ever foolproof. People are their own people and at some point if they don't learn after going through the tournaments of hard knocks and if they ignore every piece of advice you just have to let them go make their own mistakes and pray they wise up. If you could reliably change individuals' minds we'd be brainwashed by the government already.

edit: I'd like to mention that from what you wrote this sounded like a very different problem from someone getting discouraged when they lose. Losing is hard and you really have to work at it by measuring your progress against yourself and realizing that losing is your chance to learn. It's tough in a competitive game because you're always competing and you will continue to lose even as you improve, unlike a sport like running where you can do it solo, look at your time, and see improvement. Also, I totally need to take my own advice here.

 

[NightShadow6]

Keep beating them.

 

[TreK]

Sounds to me like the two problems are his mindset, and his poor strategy. I know no fix for the former other than just showing him top level play to inspire him and make him want to get better, but learning the strategies is actually quite easy. Make him watch a tutorial on the strategic aspects of smash like spacing and stuff
I like this one the best, it should be good for starters :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw
Btw, don't take my word for it. I've only had one smash pupil, he never got through pools and quit after one year. Teaching is haaard...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

And I have called him out on his stupid play, he uses teleports to approach and lacks aerial precision.

You actually CAN approach with teleport, but you need to cover it with Din's.

 

[Rizner]

Does he know how to cancel out of teleport with Zelda? Teach him that as a mixup -you have to start from the ground and then air dodge anywhere in the movement.

 

[Empyrean]

Like many here, I'm in the same situation. In fact, I used to have the same problem as your brother. I knew about wavedash, DD and all the technical stuff but didn't bother learning them, since I thought it would be too much to remember during a match. IMO, the problem with these people is that they are playing the game to win, when they should be focusing on learning some stuff first. As I play against my cousin (a very technical player), I realize that by incorporating some ATs into my playstyle, no matter how poorly, I start progressively learning about performing them more efficiently. Consequently, I have less trouble playing him, even though I screw up a lot and still lose to this day. Force your brother to practice SHFFLing and WD for a few hours in training mode, that's how I got better. I know it won't work with everybody, but watching competitive matches may also help.

 

[Veishi336]

I am also in a situation like this but its with two folks. My brother and my significant other. My brother is actually pretty good but goes in head first consistently and doesn't like to work on his shielding as much. He improved alot quicker than i did when i first start to play melee. He mains Link and sonic. He has always used link since the 64 days but never tried to learn every single option link had his disposal. I try teaching him things but he hates when i teach him stuff. We just keep on fighting and Im just consistently beating him with my mains (lucas and Falco) and my side chars (roy, kirby and ToonLink). I figure out his playstyle quickly where as he doesn't for me until the 20th fight. He will progressively get better the more he plays though he just needs to listen. That's a big issue with players who finally become interested in the game.....they choose not to listen to advice and other things. My significant other though listens to me quite alot and is trying to get better but his fingers aren't getting all the precise button presses. His reaction time is not all where it should be due to him being a button masher for years. He also panics alot where he ends up killing himself without realizing what he did. He is constantly willing to practice and learn though. I tell him eveything he needs to know and I let him go from there. If he wants to learn it he will if he doesn't oh well. He will just keep getting beaten by me and my bro. Id recommend just keep reminding your friend to do certain things while you are playing. Like reads, l cancelling, wavedashing, dash dancing etc. Just remind him that those are available and he might remember to use one of them while you all are fighting. I wouldn't recommend to fight him till he gets extremely frustrated though.

Good luck teaching him man..it is a true struggle to teach.

 

[Brim]

I'm actually interested in this as well.

I'm in pretty much the same situation MLGF is in regarding my group of friends.

....Conveniently one of them also uses Zelda.

Hasn't Zelda become like freakishly popular now? I used to use her, but I'm still adjusting.
/Master of the obvious moment

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

Practice, practice, practice. Exploit his weaknesses and he'll eventually learn what not to do. Show him some vids, and also have him play on training in slow motion, and gradually work his way up to doing the same AT's in normal speed.

 

[210stuna]

It doesn't help that you always play against the same person over and over again.

No matter who it is, you will eventually see their playstyle pattern, especially if they're stale/not good at the mix up/the game at all.

We are an animal of patterns after all

 

[9bit]

My friend has recently hit a wall in regards to his progress in this game.

I don't know what to do about it. I think at this point it's on him. I send him videos of high level **** of the characters that he plays. He has his own setup at his place that he can practice on. I try to facilitate his progress when we play. But he's just so incredibly predictable.

There was a bit of time back a few months ago where he was giving me some serious trouble. I would barely win. But now I don't even try and I win easily. Not sure what to do. I guess it's mostly on him at this point. He needs to push himself if he wants to get better. I won't force it. I hope he does, though. Ah whatever.

 

[ShortFuse]

A friend of mine who plays smash with me regularly tends to get a bit tired of the high level play, but what is never boring is taking a previously slow and clunky character (like Ganon) and wavedash and LCancel all over the place. Don't try to show them with Fox or Lucas the benefits of fast play, just show how previously "too slow" characters can be broken wide open.

 

[Y-L]

I think the most fundamental thing a new smasher can learn is fast falling and L-cancelling. Learning to use those very basic techs is when the game becomes a lot more fast paced. A lot less falling time and end lag increases the pace of the fight astronomically. I think you should try to get him to master that first before anything else.

 

[quote05]

Try to teach them movement first. Just let them know the limits on their character. On project let go wild on single play. Set it to infinite time for score, not stock and by themselves, and just send them to hyrule castle or any battlefield type stage. After that you show them how fast they can move if they learn movement techs. From there teach them the differences from short hops and full jumps, fast falling and then l canceling. Try to teach general techs that all characters can use. Shield grabbing, wave dashing, dash dancing, Oos options, crónica canceling.