How do "Advanced Techniques" or "Game Physics" affect casual players?

[VA3TO]

I don't understand Sakurai's reasoning behind his most recent statements regarding the game. Voicing his concerns of "the SILENT majority prefers Brawl over Melee" which is completely.... well full of sh*t to be completely honest. Anyway, on with the post.

How does the effects of wave dashing or L - cancelling OR any other gameplay enhancing techniques change the way casual players play the game? To them they get a great cross over fighting game with their favourite characters they get to play with their friends and will probably lose interest within 2-3 months or so. If someone is willing to put more time and effort into the game OF COURSE that player is going to beat someone whose only been playing for fun. Why take away what that person has earned through training?

Catering to the people who are actually going to continue to play this game through the years (Melee has been played for over 12 years now, it shows what people WANT) just makes more sense from a design stand point. I can understand that Brawl was set out to entice casual players to the franchise and bring in a bigger player base. I can forgive that. I can't forgive that it done to the Smash Genre as a whole. They made the game boring and near unplayable (Yes there are tournaments still going but will soon be replaced by SSB4. Melee will remain strong).

 

[FlamingForce]

Unless they play against someone who practices these advanced techniques it does not affect them at all. Melee can be play casually just fine.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Yeah, I don't understand it either. So what, there are intricacies in the engine that casual players wouldn't notice? How is that an excuse for removing them? Making the game better for casual fans by screwing over the hardcore fans is bad enough, as opposed to, say, finding a middle ground that will leave both sides happy, but it doesn't even change the game at all for the casual fans anyway, so you're just screwing over the competitive players. The only people this benefits at all are the people who despise competitive Smash players because they "ruin the spirit of the game" or whatever, which is hardly a demographic I would aim to appeal to.

 

[Renji64]

Even with this middleground we have to settle which is sad. The smash game has been ruined by some mindset that this stuff effects casual players. He said Melee was geared toward hardcore and brawl was toward casuals. I played Melee casually for years before learning of the competitive scene and learned how to get better now that element will be gone from smash forever.

 

[Ray Robo]

What the casuals don't know won't hurt them am I right?

If Sakurai wants smash to be enjoyed by all types of players then he should start making it for all types of players instead of favoring a mute side that only plays the game for the first couple of months before moving on, compared to people who enjoy the competitive spirit of the game and continue to play it for years.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Sakurai doesn't owe us an explanation, and honestly with us overanalyzing his every word, I think he would have been better off not doing so. The fact that he tried to help us understand is great. He tried to explain his decisions as best he could, but may not have done the best job of it.

The point is, even if this is a bad decision (something I'm not sure I agree with), so what? He makes so many good decisions can we not forgive some mistakes? And to those who try to say, "but he doesn't learn from his mistakes," how many of you learned how to do something the right way after messing up only once?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Of course it affects casual players, especially going forward. Remember: Melee wasn't much of a problem because the odds of playing someone who knew how to, for instance, wavedash were incredibly low if you weren't physically present at a tournament.

But, Brawl? Brawl had online play. Of course, the netcode wasn't great, but we had no way of knowing that, and the competitive community had every intention of utilizing it. In addition, Sakurai assumed we would be using online play, specifically "With Anyone". Which meant, all of the sudden, it was actually relatively easy for a casual to be unwittingly matched up with someone who was not only simply more skilled, but had access to knowledge and moves that the average player simply would not have access to.

Now, with SSB4, Sakurai claims he wants to clean up the netcode and make the online experience better. Which means, he wants more of us, in some sense, to use online play. So, why on god's green Earth would we expect him to WANT advanced techs in the game? Why on Earth would he want to give us win buttons over casual players? If we win because we're more skilled, that's one thing, but if we steamroll everyone online because we know how to exploit the physics engine and they all don't? I'm sorry, but that's bull****; you shouldn't be required to have a SWF account to have fun online.

So, yeah, in this generation, ATs totally affect casual players.

 

[Artsy Omni]

The only ones that I feel affect casual play are the speed of gravity and whether or not there are multiple air dodges. Because casual players are often pitted against people who are spammy with projectiles, and not having multiple air dodges would be frustrating to some players, I imagine.

The speed of gravity greatly affects whether or not people are able to react fast enough to recover, which also impacts how much fun someone is able to have. Having slightly slower gravity lowers the barrier of entry for people who don't have the best hand-eye coordination.

 

[Maricalistaro]

It's really quite simple. Characters in games that feature advanced techniques are in fact balanced around having those techniques. If a person does not know how to perform those techniques then the character will be gimped. I myself would hate it if I could not play my favorite character to the fullest potential because they required techniques I don't know how to perform.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't understand Sakurai's reasoning behind his most recent statements regarding the game. Voicing his concerns of "the SILENT majority prefers Brawl over Melee" which is completely.... well full of sh*t to be completely honest. Anyway, on with the post.

How does the effects of wave dashing or L - cancelling OR any other gameplay enhancing techniques change the way casual players play the game? To them they get a great cross over fighting game with their favourite characters they get to play with their friends and will probably lose interest within 2-3 months or so. if someone is willing to put more time and effort into the game OF COURSE that player is going to beat someone whose only been playing for fun. Why take away what that person has earned through training?

Catering to the people who are actually going to continue to play this game through the years (Melee has been played for over 12 years now, it shows what people WANT) just makes more sense from a design stand point. I can understand that Brawl was set out to entice casual players to the franchise and bring in a bigger player base. I can forgive that. I can't forgive that it done to the Smash Genre as a whole. They made the game boring and near unplayable (Yes there are tournaments still going but will soon be replaced by SSB4. Melee will remain strong).

Why did you bring this up? You should know by now the arguments this brings up.

For this, I am revoking your teeth privileges. That's right. Hand 'em over.

 

[VA3TO]

But, Brawl? Brawl had online play. Of course, the netcode wasn't great, but we had no way of knowing that, and the competitive community had every intention of utilizing it. In addition, Sakurai assumed we would be using online play, specifically "With Anyone". Which meant, all of the sudden, it was actually relatively easy for a casual to be unwittingly matched up with someone who was not only simply more skilled, but had access to knowledge and moves that the average player simply would not have access to.

So the lack of online features is the excuse for making a gimped version of our beloved game?

This can easily be solved with adding more features to search other players with; for example:

"Smash Veterans"
"Free For All"
"Welcome to Smash!"

Thats only three different ways to counter act everything in this statement.

Smash Veterans will who are obviously skilled at the game can enjoy the competitiveness with items off, advanced techniques (which do not abuse the physics engine (Why do people keep saying this?)) and already shows newer players that if they want to play with the big boys, they can but they have to learn how to play at a higher level.

Free for All is what "With Anyone" in Brawl is and we all know what to expect from that.
The third can be up for debate, if there is some way to graduate from this into the later choices; as long as it shows newer players how to first start competing against other players. Very noobie friendly.


This idea that people shouldn't have to learn or improve their skills is really boggling me lately. Why SHOULDN'T they have to get better and learn how to play? Isn't the whole point of games to get better? Yeah so what if you lose, it means you have plenty more to learn and prolongs the gaming experience. The whole idea of players not having to learn new things is a detriment to the gaming society.

 

[VA3TO]

Why did you bring this up? You should know by now the arguments this brings up.

For this, I am revoking your teeth privileges. That's right. Hand 'em over.

Its been all over the forums lately so I thought I'd give me 2 pence seeing as I'm new to the forum and would like more opinions on the subject. Plus by the looks of it so far, people agree so I'm not crazy haha!


So, TOUGH LUCK. NO TEETH FOR YOU.

 

[VA3TO]

It's really quite simple. Characters in games that feature advanced techniques are in fact balanced around having those techniques. If a person does not know how to perform those techniques then the character will be gimped. I myself would hate it if I could not play my favorite character to the fullest potential because they required techniques I don't know how to perform.

Well learn how to perform them and practice to get better.

Is this a hard concept?

 

[Kamiko]

Getting better in a fighter shouldn't be about whether you can do the moves or not. It should be about how you use them.

 

[VA3TO]

Getting better in a fighter shouldn't be about whether you can do the moves or not. It should be about how you use them.

Learning the moves is a process in every game you play, it shouldn't be made easier because you can't be bothered to learn.

 

[Kamiko]

Learning a move isn't even hard. Intentionally complicated button inputs only exist because of hardware limitations anyway.

 

[VA3TO]

Learning a move isn't even hard. Intentionally complicated button inputs only exist because of hardware limitations anyway.

So that's another way of saying "can't be bothered" amirite?

 

[Kamiko]

What I'm saying, is that it needs to add something to game. If the only thing it does is separate people who can or can't be bothered to use it, then it's pointless. I'm all for adding depth to the game, but not in the way Melee had it.

 

[VA3TO]

What I'm saying, is that it needs to add something to game. If the only thing it does is separate people who can or can't be bothered to use it, then it's pointless. I'm all for adding depth to the game, but not in the way Melee had it.

If you want to be a top player in ANY game you play you have to learn to utilize every tool at your disposal. A lot of games require button presses and movements like this. Look at StarCraft 2, Team Fortress 2 or Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3.

Team Fortress 2 has you using Rocket Jumpers and Air Juggling w/ precise aim to get better. Should they add a button that makes you Rocket Jump to make the game easier and accessible for players who can't? No.

Star Craft 2 often requires players to change their key binds to fully optimize their strategies and requires Micro Management skills up the ass. Should this be stream lined to help players make it easier for them or takes away anything from the game? No.

UMvC3 has all sort of techniques required to be a TOP level player. P-link dasing, wave dashing and learning optimised combos are needed to be a top player. Should this be made easier so everyone can compete? Should this be the mentality to all players who can't/won't do these things? Does this stop newer players putting it on Simple Mode and enjoying their favourite characters with their friends or against the CPU? No.
If you can't be bothered to learn to keep up with the best, then you don't deserve to be the best.

 

[Kamiko]

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. Some of these types of techniques don't actually require much skill at all. L-canceling is one of these. Any player who requires this type of thing to win is NOT good at fighting; they are good at pressing buttons.

 

[VA3TO]

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. Some of these types of techniques don't actually require much skill at all. L-canceling is one of these. Any player who requires this type of thing to win is NOT good at fighting; they are good at pressing buttons.

Good at pressing buttons? In a fighting game? Isn't that the whole point of, well you know, games in general? Being faster to react, being more precise and out performing your opponent? If it's not difficult to do, why are people complaining? If you mess up, it's a big deal because you can get punished hard. How does that NOT add depth?

 

[Kamiko]

How often do people mess up throwing a real punch? Never. Those things don't add depth, because you can't get better at them. You either do it or you don't. But you can always improve your reactions. You can always improve your aim. That's the difference here. If a technique doesn't have that, then there has to be another option, or a reason to not do it at times.

Would it be a good idea to make players take damage every five seconds unless they press a specific button combination right at that moment? It takes skill to pull that off in the heat of battle, right?

 

[Renji64]

Most casual player use items. Most likely they will be playing megaman with items and won't even notice the changes to the game.

 

[VA3TO]

How often do people mess up throwing a real punch? Never. Those things don't add depth, because you can't get better at them. You either do it or you don't. But you can always improve your reactions. You can always improve your aim. That's the difference here. If a technique doesn't have that, then there has to be another option, or a reason to not do it at times.

Would it be a good idea to make players take damage every five seconds unless they press a specific button combination right at that moment? It takes skill to pull that off in the heat of battle, right?

I can assure you, a lot of people don't know how to throw a punch. You can get better at throwing a punch and it is very difficult to throw a proper punch. Where to hit your punches, when to throw them out not to get hit back and keeping up your stamina add depth a long hitting a punch without hurting yourself.

Taking mandatory damage every 5 seconds is not how fighting games work. If you attack your opponent and mess up, they get a free hit and you take damage is how fighting games work. Yes it does take skill; knowing what options you have at those moments and executing them takes skill, as unfair as it sounds.

 

[Kamiko]

I wasn't saying it was easy to use a punch well, I was saying that when you go to thrust your fist out, you don't mess up and have it not happen. Fighting games should mimic that, focusing on all the other things you said.

That doesn't sound unfair at all. That's how a fight is suppose go, and that's what I'm saying Smash Bros should be about.

That said, throwing a proper punch is laughably easy. Most people just suck at doing things.

 

[awsome04000]

If The New Smash Can do this i will be happy :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTnGADJ3gRI

 

[HeroMystic]

If you want to be a top player in ANY game you play you have to learn to utilize every tool at your disposal. A lot of games require button presses and movements like this. Look at StarCraft 2, Team Fortress 2 or Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3.

To reiterate what Kamiko said, there's a difference between depth, and just a complication. Since Starcraft II was spoken of, I'll use that as an example. In this game, you're right, there are tons of things to micromanage. Military units, harvesters, building your infrastructure, scouting your opponent, attacking, defending, keeping your money low, the list goes on. However, Blizzard fairly recently released with their new expansion the option to allow your first six harvesters to automatically start harvesting as soon as the game starts, instead of forcing you to command them. They also added a counter to tell you when a base is fully saturated, which means adding more harvesters would have diminishing returns (which means you should start thinking about adding another base).

They didn't need to add these changes either. Everyone was used to counting how many workers they had each base and had timings down to a T to know when to start adding bases. Pro Players have also been manually telling their workers to mine at the beginning of the game for over a decade now. However, does Starcraft II as a whole lose any depth due to these changes? No, because knowing how to count your workers quickly does not mean anything as a skill. In fact, the additions doesn't change anything at all. It just allows players to alleviate some of their focus.


This can be easily translated to Smash. Almost everything in Melee had some sort of meaning. Character's normals, specials, grabs, etc. had meaning. Melee's wavedashing, moonwalking, crouch-canceling, had meaning. But did L-Cancel have a meaning? Or was it just a complication for players to bypass?

 

[VA3TO]

To reiterate what Kamiko said, there's a difference between depth, and just a complication. Since Starcraft II was spoken of, I'll use that as an example. In this game, you're right, there are tons of things to micromanage. Military units, harvesters, building your infrastructure, scouting your opponent, attacking, defending, keeping your money low, the list goes on. However, Blizzard fairly recently released with their new expansion the option to allow your first six harvesters to automatically start harvesting as soon as the game starts, instead of forcing you to command them. They also added a counter to tell you when a base is fully saturated, which means adding more harvesters would have diminishing returns (which means you should start thinking about adding another base).

They didn't need to add these changes either. Everyone was used to counting how many workers they had each base and had timings down to a T to know when to start adding bases. Pro Players have also been manually telling their workers to mine at the beginning of the game for over a decade now. However, does Starcraft II as a whole lose any depth due to these changes? No, because knowing how to count your workers quickly does not mean anything as a skill. In fact, the additions doesn't change anything at all. It just allows players to alleviate some of their focus.


This can be easily translated to Smash. Almost everything in Melee had some sort of meaning. Character's normals, specials, grabs, etc. had meaning. Melee's wavedashing, moonwalking, crouch-canceling, had meaning. But did L-Cancel have a meaning? Or was it just a complication for players to bypass?

I can whole heartedly agree with your entire post. But in a game of quick reactions and precise movements failing an L cancel would lose you a stock. It's important to know which aerials need to be cancelled at the right height of execution. Same with using the move in the first place; if you use a move at the incorrect time you will be punished. One button to execute the attack, one button to cancel the landing lag. L cancelling doesn't alleviate focus because all the action is contained on one screen at a time as opposed to SC2 where you have multiple places to focus (Enemy base, conflicts, your own base etc etc).

 

[INs4niTY-]

Melee worked very well casually especially with items. This casual approach isn't really needed. If you're not bothered to learn all techniques, put smash ball item on high and have fun. Why shouldn't we get an option to have fun the competitive way like melee :\

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Now, with SSB4, Sakurai claims he wants to clean up the netcode and make the online experience better. Which means, he wants more of us, in some sense, to use online play. So, why on god's green Earth would we expect him to WANT advanced techs in the game?

Because it ASPIRES new players to improve, gives intermediate players a REASON to keep playing, and keeps seasoned pros from quitting. The butt hurt, self entitled sort of casuals that quit because they have to actually practice can walk in traffic for all Sakurai should care. If people are legitimately bad and can't compete they can just play with other baddies on their friends list. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!

Why on Earth would he want to give us win buttons over casual players? If we win because we're more skilled, that's one thing, but if we steamroll everyone online because we know how to exploit the physics engine and they all don't? I'm sorry, but that's bull****; you shouldn't be required to have a SWF account to have fun online.

The people that know how to exploit the game's mechanics steamroll casuals because THEY ARE MORE SKILLED! If you took away all of the advanced techniques like Brawl did THEY WILL STILL STEAMROLL THE CASUALS. Unless you make an online coin flipping game CASUALS WILL GET STEAMROLLED. If they aren't having fun online they shouldn't have bought a game where one person wins and another person loses. That's what competition is all about, an individual/team with superior knowledge and skill beating other individuals/teams with inferior knowledge and skill.

 

[[Corn]]

I don't understand Sakurai's reasoning behind his most recent statements regarding the game. Voicing his concerns of "the SILENT majority prefers Brawl over Melee" which is completely.... well full of sh*t to be completely honest. Anyway, on with the post.

How does the effects of wave dashing or L - cancelling OR any other gameplay enhancing techniques change the way casual players play the game? To them they get a great cross over fighting game with their favorite characters they get to play with their friends and will probably lose interest within 2-3 months or so. if someone is willing to put more time and effort into the game OF COURSE that player is going to beat someone whose only been playing for fun. Why take away what that person has earned through training?

Catering to the people who are actually going to continue to play this game through the years (Melee has been played for over 12 years now, it shows what people WANT) just makes more sense from a design stand point. I can understand that Brawl was set out to entice casual players to the franchise and bring in a bigger player base. I can forgive that. I can't forgive that it done to the Smash Genre as a whole. They made the game boring and near unplayable (Yes there are tournaments still going but will soon be replaced by SSB4. Melee will remain strong).

The community at my College as well as my general area is nearly 100% Brawl. We have a few melee players, but they are definitely in the minority. We all like Melee as a game, and we all consider Brawl a nearly different game that we enjoy more. We care about getting better, and we certainly try to do so. I dont see why we cant have 4 different Smash games with all different and unique playstyles.

The only technique that I have ever heard someone that sounded reasonable in my Brawl community complain about is L canceling, as it is basically an unnecessary mechanic. That I agree with.

Like it or not, the majority of people will dislike it if all they did was make Melee 2.0. That would be uninteresting and bland, and I would bet that people would stick to original melee regardless. One of the weirdest things that I notice is that people want speed over alot of things. I dont know what the excitement over that is, but I personally dont care about speed as long as the gameplay is fair and fun. I am not saying Brawl is perfect nor that Melee is worse, all I am saying is that different games will be as such, different. When you set a fairly high baseline for a game, expect to be disappointed in some manner.

64 is not Melee, Melee is not Brawl, and Brawl will not be SSB4. The only thing that I will really be dissapointed in SSB4 is if we have another issue like Metaknight and we dont take action soon in a ruleset, that is one of the main stigmatisms that people say to me against the Brawl Community.

Regardless of what comes out you will still have the choice of what to play.

 

[DakotaBonez]

The advanced techniques and physics of smash have quite the adverse affect on casual players. It appears that "friction" causes them to lose momentum, and attempting a "wave dash" will cause them to fall of the edge of the stage due to the affects of another variable in the physics known as "gravity". Fascinating.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that if you want to play online, but aren't competitive, and you get owned over and over again, either suck it up, become competitive or GTFO, is that right?

 

[XavierSylfaen]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that if you want to play online, but aren't competitive, and you get owned over and over again, either suck it up, become competitive or GTFO, is that right?

For starters, it would be easy to implement a system where casuals were matched up against casuals and pros were matched up against pros so there wouldn't be a massive skill gap. So the entire "online play necessitates the lowering of the skill ceiling" argument is stupid.

But that's irrelevant. Yes, if you get owned over and over again, you get better so you can win. That's the point.

 

[Curmudgeon]

In this topic, people only prefer Brawl over Melee because some techniques are too advanced for them.

Catering to the people who are actually going to continue to play this game through the years (Melee has been played for over 12 years now, it shows what people WANT) just makes more sense from a design stand point.

The people that have played Melee competitively for 12 years are the minority, you can't deny that, and it doesn't show in any way what people want.

 

[TheTuninator]

If we're talking about SCII, I'd point out that certain changes, particularly the ability to auto-rally workers to begin mining after production, caused massive controversy among the competitive Starcraft community during the transition from BW to Starcraft II. Other features which proved controversial included "smart" casting, in which players no longer had to manually cast spells from every individual caster to avoid wasting them in group casts, and a much larger unit selection total which made maneuvering armies much easier for weaker players. Many hardcore BW players might well view SCII as the "Brawl" of Starcraft due to the game's automation of repetitive, APM-intensive tasks as well as a marked increase in ease of controlling units. Despite this controversy, SCII has come to be viewed as a benchmark for competitive games, it seems. Food for thought.

That said, I'm leery of balancing anything around giving casual players an even playing field online against people who know the tricks of the game. Sakurai tried to do this with Brawl via features like tripping, and we all saw how well that turned out. Casual players will always get demolished by competitive players, and if Sakurai doesn't want that to happen then the best possible solution is an effective matchmaking system. Knowing and being able to perform ATs is simply another manifestation of skill, same as how you're going to have a tougher time against somebody who has looked up exact frame data if you haven't.

This by no means necessitates that I want random ATs in SSB4 simply for the sake of having ATs, and of course no character should require ATs to be played in a fun and effective manner.

 

[Vkrm]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that if you want to play online, but aren't competitive, and you get owned over and over again, either suck it up, become competitive or GTFO, is that right?

Something wrong with that? Guess what, if you play smash online, get bopped by someone with da mad skillz, and then get salty, you probably aren't a casual player anyway. How many casual players care about their performance so much? Not the ones I know. On the real though most casuals made up their mind the moment megaman was announced. They don't actually care about advanced techs. Sakurai should definitely up the depth so that smash 4 can establish itself in the competitive community.

 

[Vkrm]

Double post.

 

[smashbrolink]

Isn't the whole point of games to get better?

Since when was THAT a thing to all gamers?
The majority play games to have fun, not to be competitive and get better and better for the sake of shallow bragging rights and internet ego-inflation.
Making a more accessible experience is the better path for the game, that's all there is to it. If techs hold that back by allowing skilled players to blow away everyone that steps into a casual public lobby with no effort, discouraging them from playing by making the game feel like a pros-only experience, then it's better that some of those advanced techs disappear.

Encouraging players to get better isn't a bad thing, but shoe-horning them into it by setting the skill bar of matches too high for them to feel encouraged is not the way to do it.

Thankfully, there's the likelihood that they'll be able to use patches to adjust the game after release, so we may not have to worry about them overdoing things with the fixes and removals and whatnot.

In the meantime, if the small faction of competitive-to-the-point-of-rude players[not the same as the rest of the competitive community] want to do a clear amount of segregation so badly by getting rid of any form of casual helping by the devs, then that small faction already has friends list battles as a ready-made solution for their desire to play against nothing but skilled players in a casual-free environment.

 

[smashbrolink]

Something wrong with that? Guess what, if you play smash online, get bopped by someone with da mad skillz, and then get salty, you probably aren't a casual player anyway. How many casual players care about their performance so much? Not the ones I know. On the real though most casuals made up their mind the moment megaman was announced. They don't actually care about advanced techs. Sakurai should definitely up the depth so that smash 4 can establish itself in the competitive community.

Or, the competitive players could stick to friends lists filled with others like themselves instead of ruining the play sessions of players that are still not up to their own level by completely decimating and discouraging every casual that appears.
Just a thought, since obliterating any sort of casual play seems to be the direction a certain faction of the competitive base seems to be leaning in anyways.