How could Sakurai and his team NOT realized how glaring WFT's flaws are?

[ChivalRuse]

Oh i understand that but based on what he is saying it's more of a fundamental problem than WFT problems.I'm trying so hard to work on her but I'm gonna be honest we should just pick up a secondary for people who creates a wall in front of us for example Ness. If not pick a good counterpick to fix those problems like Halberd is a great stage for her since you could run around and play around with that platform also the low ceiling could net in a early Usmash kill.

I'm pretty sure all of Ness's prominent hitboxes can be crouched under. Just saying ...

 

[Shinuto]

i dont main wft but play her solely for fun and i still rek most players on 4g, just get gut

stfu

 

[Meek Moths]

stfu

no u

 

[crisspy727]

I'm pretty sure all of Ness's prominent hitboxes can be crouched under. Just saying ...

Yeah your right it's just during the match I don't normally think about her crouch which I should thanks anyway.

 

[madworlder]

The problem with that angle is that saying "whenever you're in the air just face away from them" isn't exactly feasible. The fact of the matter is that whenever you're in the air there's a massive deadspot where she has no way to threaten an approach, and that angle is one a lot of characters like to approach at. Working around that isn't as simple as just saying "well just jump backwards."

Take Diddy Kong for example. WFT's Bair can outrange everything he does in the air, but what if he just DThrows her? She ends up facing him and her only option against a follow-up (assuming of course these are higher percents where the DThrow isn't a true combo,) is a timely air dodge. It's not an issue of spacing or how you can proactively cover her aerially, but how you can react in order to cover a space where she's dead in the water.

What I'm trying to get across is that WFT is great in the air with back turned. If you have a choice to enter the air with your front or your back facing the opponent, I believe that you should choose back more often than front. While it's true that some throws may cause her to enter the air front-facing, some throws may cause her to enter the air back-facing, which would give her an advantage against an opponent using that throw. Not every character can cover every angle all of the time in the air. WFT's angles aren't always easy to work around, but it's definitely possible.

Against Diddy's D-throw, DI and jump away, you can try to header him if he gets too close, as you said, airdodge (although he can just u-air again a lot of the time). Diddy's probably the strongest character in the game, it's not too surprising that WFT has trouble against some of his options.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It does still seem like a difficult matchup considering Ness has the ability to absorb sun salutations.

 

[xx99]

i just end up roling

Roll-canceled grab is a little tricky to learn at first, but once it clicks it is a good option for extra grab range.

I believe the trick is to hit dash first, then shield, then grab, in rapid succession. Practice rolling with dash > shield first, then practice adding in the grab. It's a little weird because you typically roll with the reverse inputs (shield > dash).

 

[Meek Moths]

Roll-canceled grab is a little tricky to learn at first, but once it clicks it is a good option for extra grab range.

I believe the trick is to hit dash first, then shield, then grab, in rapid succession. Practice rolling with dash > shield first, then practice adding in the grab. It's a little weird because you typically roll with the reverse inputs (shield > dash).

i believe Sakurai removed most of RCPG effectivenesin the recent patch, so i guess its not really worth it

 

[xx99]

What got changed? I never used RCPG, but I'm nearly certain RCG still gives WFT a range boost.

 

[Meek Moths]

it's harder to perform and i the range is reduced, at least thats what people over at the zelda boards said, as her RCPG was also pretty good

 

[SpScarecrow]

In terms of the Ness matchup i tend to use Header more because it's a physical projectile. Play mindgames by mixing up header and sun salutations. If he's blatantly absorbing the sun then the player is giving him enough time to react. I'd rather Ness react by shield than PSI Magnet. Also being annoying with small sun spam helps against the dash in approach.

 

[⑨ball]

I'm also curious about RAR F-air does it actually help because every time i performed it I end up getting punished due to small hitstun at lower %.

I don't know about RARing it unless you're also going to fastfall. Links into reverse jab at low percents(which is fantastic since you can also dash away and bait punish attempts), trips occasionally for links into anything, combos into ftilt later on, and spikes after that for floor bounces if they don't tech.

I'm still torn on the Ness MU. It feels 50/50 but in a really weird way and I need way more experience before I can call it. Secondaries in general are good though, if nothing else to see how a MU we haven't figured out completely yet fairs with another character as Wft can emulate some strategies and options.

How do you think Dark Pit and Luigi do against him?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't see how the match-up can possibly be 50/50. Ness f-air priority is amazing. His back throw is a reliable kill setup. He has d-throw combos to build damage quickly. His retreating n-air covers him well, making it hard to find openings in his defenses. And he can make us afraid to throw salutation because of PSI magnet.

It's probably 60/40. I'm sticking to that until I hear a reason for why the match-up is closer to even.

 

[Meek Moths]

d-throw combos can be DI'd out of tho

 

[ChivalRuse]

Not Ness's d-throw combos. D-throw -> fair is basically guaranteed.

 

[Meek Moths]

i manage to escape it in like 90% cases. it's predictable so it's quite easy to avoid it

but then, when i play my ness, I always do it right and get the follow up...strange

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's because your opponents using Ness aren't jumping fast enough after the throw animation ends. It's common with inexperienced smashers. That must make you experienced

 

[Meek Moths]

see? you just confirmed it just takes to be experienced to jump out of ness combo, so im sure you can do it too

 

[ChivalRuse]

You misunderstand. The NESS player is jumping too slow, which is he is failing to land the combo, and you are escaping. It IS a guaranteed combo at almost any percent till about 60%, as long as the Ness player doesn't wait a full second before attempting to follow up. Do you see the distinction?

 

[Meek Moths]

i thought that might be the case but then i just said "nah, no one can be that bad to fail the easiest 101 combo in smash 4"...but i guess it's possible x.x

 

[ChivalRuse]

You have to realize that not all people think about frame data as much as we do.

 

[⑨ball]

I don't see how the match-up can possibly be 50/50. Ness f-air priority is amazing. His back throw is a reliable kill setup. He has d-throw combos to build damage quickly. His retreating n-air covers him well, making it hard to find openings in his defenses. And he can make us afraid to throw salutation because of PSI magnet.

It's probably 60/40. I'm sticking to that until I hear a reason for why the match-up is closer to even.

Fair doesn't have priority, it has disjointed range. It's important to make the distinction so you know what you're dealing with and how to beat it.

Throws are great but are super punishable(including with our own reliable kill setup). Nair combos also build damage much faster than anything Ness can get out of dthrow.

Retreating aerials are terrible against a character with chargeable projectiles. All of Ness' aerials have animations long enough that you should be SS'ing them on reaction if you have a full charge. They're also ineffective against Wft's aerials while attempting to string, since her position will almost always be below him. His Dair sucks and a good Ness should prefer resetting to neutral rather than challenge someone below them. Nair is much better OoS which will mess with Wft a lot because she likes to be close and Fair is much more of a threat approaching, but only if she isn't crouching.

Also never respect PSI magnet. It's super punishable and not worth the preemptive attempts against a character who can cancel into shield.

Header is also incredible against his recovery. It's a safe poke that can bop him out of pkt2 and if it comes in contact with him while traveling, it will shorten his recovery considerably. It also eats thunder if you're trying to recover off stage(or if you miss him by an inch), though so does SS and most of her aerials.

So Wft has the tools to combat Ness, but because she punishes hardest from reads and Ness doesn't want to commit too hard beyond dash grabs and shield grabs, it makes the match very awkward flipflopping in momentum with nearly every hit.

Like I said it's weird, and along with Sonic I've been trying to develop some better strategies that have more concrete leanings.

 

[Lavani]

it's harder to perform and i the range is reduced, at least thats what people over at the zelda boards said, as her RCPG was also pretty good

The range nerf was specific to Zelda and Palutena.

 

[Meek Moths]

The range nerf was specific to Zelda and Palutena.

oh damn c:

another thing which really helps against ness matchup, or actually any kind of matchup, is to know how the other character plays, which is easier to know if you play the said character. i guess that's why i dont get much trouble when fighting ness, as i know what will the opponent do next as i would do that when playing ness. so when you have not ever tried using ness then it may be a metaknight matchup for you

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fair doesn't have priority, it has disjointed range. It's important to make the distinction so you know what you're dealing with and how to beat it.

You do know that disjointed hitboxes are better than simply higher priority hitboxes with hurtboxes overlayed right? But you are correct, nonetheless.

Retreating aerials are terrible against a character with chargeable projectiles. All of Ness' aerials have animations long enough that you should be SS'ing them on reaction if you have a full charge. They're also ineffective against Wft's aerials while attempting to string, since her position will almost always be below him. His Dair sucks and a good Ness should prefer resetting to neutral rather than challenge someone below them. Nair is much better OoS which will mess with Wft a lot because she likes to be close and Fair is much more of a threat approaching, but only if she isn't crouching.

Any decent Ness is only going to be using SH retreating nair in a situation where you are probably too pressured to have been charging SS in the first place. I mean, if you happen to have one fully charged already, then by all means go for it. But you'll still need strict reaction time to be able to punish it; also, if you're in the middle of an animation already, forget punishing a retreating aerial.

Also never respect PSI magnet. It's super punishable and not worth the preemptive attempts against a character who can cancel into shield.

PSI magnet can be cancelled if it absorbs an energy-based projectile, and typically Ness players will be only using magnet on reaction. See Jtails' video on how to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XK8YN-oxEY

 

[⑨ball]

You do know that disjointed hitboxes are better than simply higher priority hitboxes with hurtboxes overlayed right? But you are correct, nonetheless.

That's obvious? My point is to say that if you are challenging fair and losing it's not because you are getting outprioritized. It'd be because you are being outspaced. I'm not even sure aerials can see hitboxes in smash 4. In any case fair will never beat SS and loses to our own well spaced fair.

Any decent Ness is only going to be using SH retreating nair in a situation where you are probably too pressured to have been charging SS in the first place. I mean, if you happen to have one fully charged already, then by all means go for it. But you'll still need strict reaction time to be able to punish it; also, if you're in the middle of an animation already, forget punishing a retreating aerial.

This makes no sense at all. If you were being pressured why should Ness even have to use retreating nairs? It doesn't control any space beyond his immediate area, doesn't alter his hurtbox notably, doesn't aid his movement. Retreating aerials are for as the name implies, retreating, which means Ness is trying to get away from pressure. This is why you'll usually see it OoS or as a preemptive escape to control space as an opponent approaches.

There's also very little ANY character can do to prevent the few into-shield-charge characters from charging without putting themselves in danger. It's far easier to bop WFT firing a charge than it is to nail her while she's actually charging. Reaction time isn't actually all that strict, especially if it's a player that uses it often since you should be looking for it.

There are only a few animations you should be in where Ness doing a retreating fair would even matter. During dash attacks and grabbing attempts, in which case you'd most likely be getting punished OoS. That's a player issue not a MU issue.

During neutral animations such as shield(dash in shield bait), standing, walking, dashing, charging SS(shield bait). You can act out of all of these with SS shots and jump SS shots.

Anything else will either be safe because nair doesn't have really have any worrisome range, or you'll be getting punishes much harder because Ness has better options for hard punishes than running away with an aerial.

PSI magnet can be cancelled if it absorbs an energy-based projectile, and typically Ness players will be only using magnet on reaction. See Jtails' video on how to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XK8YN-oxEY

This literally means nothing to Wft. This is like saying Fox can roll after reflecting. Ness absorbing a projectile is a bad thing, you don't want this. As such you should always make it so using PSI is much more risky for him than you. When it's not canceled it has tons of lag. Ness can't even safely deal with Elfire from Robin, how exactly are they going to be reacting to a much safer projectile and keeping up a decent offense or defense at the same time?

I could see if we were talking about chucking them from across the stage or something, and even then it's dangerous because a no charge SS won't travel the entire stage and let you from behind it for a nasty punish.

It has much more use in teams than it does in singles. Seriously, don't respect this move.

 

[ChivalRuse]

That's obvious? My point is to say that if you are challenging fair and losing it's not because you are getting outprioritized. It'd be because you are being outspaced. I'm not even sure aerials can see hitboxes in smash 4. In any case fair will never beat SS and loses to our own well spaced fair.

I already said that you're correct in making that distinction. But in practice the differences are no more than semantic.

This makes no sense at all. If you were being pressured why should Ness even have to use retreating nairs? It doesn't control any space beyond his immediate area, doesn't alter his hurtbox notably, doesn't aid his movement. Retreating aerials are for as the name implies, retreating, which means Ness is trying to get away from pressure. This is why you'll usually see it OoS or as a preemptive escape to control space as an opponent approaches.

There's also very little ANY character can do to prevent the few into-shield-charge characters from charging without putting themselves in danger. It's far easier to bop WFT firing a charge than it is to nail her while she's actually charging. Reaction time isn't actually all that strict, especially if it's a player that uses it often since you should be looking for it.

Because even pressuring an opponent entails some risk. For example, if Ness f-tilts your shield, or spaces a fair on your shield, just outside of shield grab-range, depending on how perfectly you react to it, you might be able to punish it by dashing out of shield, or you might run into a retreating nair. In this scenario, Ness is protecting himself by retreating back to a safe distance to reset spacing, and also denies the opponent the roll behind option.

There are only a few animations you should be in where Ness doing a retreating fair would even matter. During dash attacks and grabbing attempts, in which case you'd most likely be getting punished OoS. That's a player issue not a MU issue.

It's a matchup issue because Ness' retreating nair is good at counter hitting moves. WFT doesn't have good tools for playing around this type of strategy because she lacks range on her quicker moves like her f-tilt and jab.

During neutral animations such as shield(dash in shield bait), standing, walking, dashing, charging SS(shield bait). You can act out of all of these with SS shots and jump SS shots.

Anything else will either be safe because nair doesn't have really have any worrisome range, or you'll be getting punishes much harder because Ness has better options for hard punishes than running away with an aerial.

This literally means nothing to Wft. This is like saying Fox can roll after reflecting. Ness absorbing a projectile is a bad thing, you don't want this. As such you should always make it so using PSI is much more risky for him than you. When it's not canceled it has tons of lag. Ness can't even safely deal with Elfire from Robin, how exactly are they going to be reacting to a much safer projectile and keeping up a decent offense or defense at the same time?

I could see if we were talking about chucking them from across the stage or something, and even then it's dangerous because a no charge SS won't travel the entire stage and let you from behind it for a nasty punish.

It has much more use in teams than it does in singles. Seriously, don't respect this move.

I agree that Sun Salutation is basically your bread and butter in the matchup. My thesis statement was more that Ness has the option to use PSI magnet, rendering mid-to-long-range Sun Salutation chucking less viable. WFT's projectile becomes more of a "use only when it has a very high chance of succeeding" deal, which is not as good as having the ability to take free potshots at your opponent without fear of actually giving them an advantage in the process.

 

[⑨ball]

I already said that you're correct in making that distinction. But in practice the differences are no more than semantic.

It's really not and it makes a world of difference to know that difference. If you are being beaten out by a move in priority, that move is not a viable option in that situation. The move itself can not be used to combat what it is being dwarfed by. The question becomes what tool can I use to beat x?

If you are being outspaced, it's a matter of positioning. The space you are at does not work with the option you are attempting. It may work depending on your own spacing. The question then becomes where do I need to be in order to have this option work against x?

Because even pressuring an opponent entails some risk. For example, if Ness f-tilts your shield, or spaces a fair on your shield, just outside of shield grab-range, depending on how perfectly you react to it, you might be able to punish it by dashing out of shield, or you might run into a retreating nair. In this scenario, Ness is protecting himself by retreating back to a safe distance to reset spacing, and also denies the opponent the roll behind option.

Ness has terribly stubby legs. An ftilt out of grab range is essentially an ftilt that wasn't going to hit anyway. It's thrown out to control space just like retreating fairs and sh-fairs. This means you are in neutral. You aren't being pressured so much as presenting a threat to the space he controls. With active hitboxes in this space, he can ward off approaches and force overzealous players to run into them, but it's not pressure. You are not on the defensive, you are at neutral, playing footsies just like he is and as such your own poking tool will win everytime.

In a scenario where you're trying to punish this non hitting ftilt with something out of a dash for some reason, if you're not reaching the ftilt in time you're probably getting hit. It's not something you react to (since you're getting hit) so much as something you know (so your thought process might go something like:

• • ["I don't have any fast enough options out of dash from this distance against this strategy/move."]

and outplay using better options and smarter strategies.

• • ["Ness tends to control space with ftilt and sh-fair so I'll outspace him with SS. Or maybe I'll dash in and shield to bait the retreating nair and then punish it with SS on reaction. Rolling behind the moment ftilt hits might work as well and put me in a good position to uair and usmash.]

It's a matchup issue because Ness' retreating nair is good at counter hitting moves. WFT doesn't have good tools for playing around this type of strategy because she lacks range on her quicker moves like her f-tilt and jab.

The most absurd thing I've ever seen you post. If the tool your using doesn't work for what you're attempting, it doesn't mean it's a bad tool, or that a character doesn't have that tool. It means the tool your using doesn't work for what you're attempting and only that.

This strategy is no more powerful than ftilting out of grab range and then using pivot ftilt to punish approaches. Not a MU issue in the slightest.

I agree that Sun Salutation is basically your bread and butter in the matchup. My thesis statement was more that Ness has the option to use PSI magnet, rendering mid-to-long-range Sun Salutation chucking less viable. WFT's projectile becomes more of a "use only when it has a very high chance of succeeding" deal, which is not as good as having the ability to take free potshots at your opponent without fear of actually giving them an advantage in the process.

If you're at mid -to-long -range, you should should be in the lead meaning you don't have any need to be doing this. That said, it's also not entirely true as you can cover SS shots very well with header trick shots. Full screen uncharged SS's will dissipate before going full screen making them great baits for full screen magnets to run behind ,or simply tossing header out to bop this online-esque tactic. Wft's projectile plays the same role it always does in every other MU, poking, spacing, racking up damage, and hard punishes. You know your character, and you should know enough about Ness that you use your tools correctly, yes?

As for free potshots, that's all fine and dandy in 4 glory, but whenever I talk about WFT I'm talking about in tournament play. Charging SS and throwing it out just to throw it out and hoping it hits is a waste of a charge. Offline, all characters get immense buffs in being able to have things come out when their player presses them. I can perfect shield a spamming Link for a full 5 minutes if he doesn't want to approach when I have the percent lead. Not so much online. As such, SS should be used critically and with intent as with every other move. You should know what you want it to do, and what options it covers by doing so. In tournament you shouldn't be relying on throwing out moves and hoping they hit, you should be outplaying your opponent using the toolset you have.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's really not and it makes a world of difference to know that difference. If you are being beaten out by a move in priority, that move is not a viable option in that situation. The move itself can not be used to combat what it is being dwarfed by. The question becomes what tool can I use to beat x?

If you are being outspaced, it's a matter of positioning. The space you are at does not work with the option you are attempting. It may work depending on your own spacing. The question then becomes where do I need to be in order to have this option work against x?

Of course it makes a difference. I was just hoping to avoid discussing (at length) terms that we both already fully comprehend.

Ness has terribly stubby legs. An ftilt out of grab range is essentially an ftilt that wasn't going to hit anyway. It's thrown out to control space just like retreating fairs and sh-fairs. This means you are in neutral. You aren't being pressured so much as presenting a threat to the space he controls. With active hitboxes in this space, he can ward off approaches and force overzealous players to run into them, but it's not pressure. You are not on the defensive, you are at neutral, playing footsies just like he is and as such your own poking tool will win everytime.

In a scenario where you're trying to punish this non hitting ftilt with something out of a dash for some reason, if you're not reaching the ftilt in time you're probably getting hit. It's not something you react to (since you're getting hit) so much as something you know (so your thought process might go something like:

• • ["I don't have any fast enough options out of dash from this distance against this strategy/move."]

and outplay using better options and smarter strategies.

• • ["Ness tends to control space with ftilt and sh-fair so I'll outspace him with SS. Or maybe I'll dash in and shield to bait the retreating nair and then punish it with SS on reaction. Rolling behind the moment ftilt hits might work as well and put me in a good position to uair and usmash.]

F-tilt was a terrible example. You're right that it wouldn't be considered pressure. Let's just accept that it isn't a thing. However, consider a very common situation: Ness throws PK fire at you, and you block it. If the PK fire is not thrown from max range, depending on how close you are to Ness, you can punish the PK fire by dashing out of shield. However, the frame advantage is hard to judge depending on your distance from Ness. If you are a little too far, you will be met by the SH retreating nair coverage that we've been talking about.

The most absurd thing I've ever seen you post. If the tool your using doesn't work for what you're attempting, it doesn't mean it's a bad tool, or that a character doesn't have that tool. It means the tool your using doesn't work for what you're attempting and only that.

This strategy is no more powerful than ftilting out of grab range and then using pivot ftilt to punish approaches. Not a MU issue in the slightest.

Yeah, that was a pretty ridiculous post. WFT's f-tilt and jab (jab particularly) are great tools in any matchup, and fighting Ness doesn't change that. I think that I was trying to say that WFT's tools for challenging Ness in the air at short-hop height are limited, because her fair hits too high and her f-tilt range is not really enough to challenge Ness's fair. But I did a pretty bad job of saying that lol. Anyway, the matchup struggle becomes more visible when you realize that WFT's punish game is not very good, whereas Ness racks up damage fast with aerial to u-tilt to u-air strings and his grab combos. Her bad normals (outside of jab) are simply a general WFT problem I guess.

If you're at mid -to-long -range, you should should be in the lead meaning you don't have any need to be doing this. That said, it's also not entirely true as you can cover SS shots very well with header trick shots. Full screen uncharged SS's will dissipate before going full screen making them great baits for full screen magnets to run behind ,or simply tossing header out to bop this online-esque tactic. Wft's projectile plays the same role it always does in every other MU, poking, spacing, racking up damage, and hard punishes. You know your character, and you should know enough about Ness that you use your tools correctly, yes?

As for free potshots, that's all fine and dandy in 4 glory, but whenever I talk about WFT I'm talking about in tournament play. Charging SS and throwing it out just to throw it out and hoping it hits is a waste of a charge. Offline, all characters get immense buffs in being able to have things come out when their player presses them. I can perfect shield a spamming Link for a full 5 minutes if he doesn't want to approach when I have the percent lead. Not so much online. As such, SS should be used critically and with intent as with every other move. You should know what you want it to do, and what options it covers by doing so. In tournament you shouldn't be relying on throwing out moves and hoping they hit, you should be outplaying your opponent using the toolset you have.

There are times when you have a fully charged Sun Salutation and you want to throw it out even if it won't hit for sure, just to force a reaction. This is fully relevant to competitive play, as I have never been an online smash player with the previous games, my strategies have always been centralized around competitive utility. It's simply not a good idea to hold onto Sun Salutation indefinitely. Even if you know that it won't kill if it hits, holding back on its usage only limits your character and her capabilities. I think that there are times to be conservative with it, but I think there is a good balance where you are neither overly liberal with it, nor too reserved. My point is simply that in the Ness matchup you have to be less liberal with your useage, and I do think that it a notable advantage.

 

[⑨ball]

Of course it makes a difference. I was just hoping to avoid discussing (at length) terms that we both already fully comprehend.

Haha, I wish you'd have said that from the beginning. I try to be as accurate as possible in my posts because I know that a lot of WFT players are completely new to smash and have no idea what's what.

F-tilt was a terrible example. You're right that it wouldn't be considered pressure. Let's just accept that it isn't a thing. However, consider a very common situation: Ness throws PK fire at you, and you block it. If the PK fire is not thrown from max range, depending on how close you are to Ness, you can punish the PK fire by dashing out of shield. However, the frame advantage is hard to judge depending on your distance from Ness. If you are a little too far, you will be met by the SH retreating nair coverage that we've been talking about.

The frame advantage shouldn't be too hard to judge if we're talking about competitive players of equal skill. Things like this should be considered part of MU knowledge.

That said, the situation still doesn't change retreating nair's viability as an option. You either reached him in time to punish, or you midsjudged the timing and got hit. You can't react(in the context of punishing) to a move you got hit by, and Ness isn't being covered by a move if there's no threat to him being hit.

This is why I keep saying that it's best use is OoS. Ness wants it to hit when he uses it. Unlike with his fair(which also fails in keeping Wft out for the same reason) or the disjoints on the FE cast, it does not control space for you to run into. It doesn't create a wall out of an active hitbox that keeps Ness safe. The hitbox and hurtbox on Nair are overlapping.

This isn't being covered. This is a whiffed aerial and thus an opportunity to punish, and because Wft has projectiles, they are the optimal choice to avoid unnecessary trades.

Yeah, that was a pretty ridiculous post. WFT's f-tilt and jab (jab particularly) are great tools in any matchup, and fighting Ness doesn't change that. I think that I was trying to say that WFT's tools for challenging Ness in the air at short-hop height are limited, because her fair hits too high and her f-tilt range is not really enough to challenge Ness's fair. But I did a pretty bad job of saying that lol. Anyway, the matchup struggle becomes more visible when you realize that WFT's punish game is not very good, whereas Ness racks up damage fast with aerial to u-tilt to u-air strings and his grab combos. Her bad normals (outside of jab) are simply a general WFT problem I guess.

You are very right in that Wii Fit's tools for fighting Ness (and other character in general) at SH height are limited. More so with Ness and other characters with disjoints. This is why it's so important to recognize what those tools, however limited they may be, are and use them optimally.

I don't agree with WFT having a bad punish game at all or bad normals and this may be perhaps where all of my conflict with other Wii Fit players comes from. Most characters in the game have good low damage starters but have to rely on strings and further reads in order to build damage, slowly getting less and less guaranteed damage as they approach kill percents. There are three characters in the game(that I'm aware of) that don't fall into this pattern:

• Diddy Kong, who with committed punishes gets throws into aerials for a constant decent damage.
• Sonic, who with committed punishes gets spin dashes into aerials for ridiculous damage.
• and WFT, who with committed punishes get FF aerials into a variety of things, most notably other aerials and her header special completely dwarfing every character in the game in terms of possible guaranteed and practical damage.

Interestingly enough all three of these character can also use the same punishes to kill. Only in WFT's case, she isn't reliant on rage or reads.

Even in the scenario you've been painting with Ness walling WFT out, one charged SS is 18%. That is literally 1/5 of his kill percents with one punish.

There are times when you have a fully charged Sun Salutation and you want to throw it out even if it won't hit for sure, just to force a reaction. This is fully relevant to competitive play, as I have never been an online smash player with the previous games, my strategies have always been centralized around competitive utility. It's simply not a good idea to hold onto Sun Salutation indefinitely. Even if you know that it won't kill if it hits, holding back on its usage only limits your character and her capabilities. I think that there are times to be conservative with it, but I think there is a good balance where you are neither overly liberal with it, nor too reserved. My point is simply that in the Ness matchup you have to be less liberal with your useage, and I do think that it a notable advantage.

I'm not sure about other players, but I never want to throw out charged moves just to force a reaction. Wft has much better options for that. If I have to charge a move the only reaction I want is them being hit. If the option you want doesn't make sense, how is not a good idea to not do it? Brawl MK was incredibly strong on multiple levels having tools for nearly every situation, but you know what move was hardly if ever used on purpose? His jab. Compared to what he had available it was trash. Throwing fully charged SS's from full-midscreen offline against an opponent at neutral is not a good idea. If it isn't dealt with by the character's specific mechanic(counters,reflects, absorption) it can be perfect shielded. This is why any decent Link plays a fairly close zoning game. Robin will stay close and rely on arcfires or arcthunders -- rarely opting for just "throwing it out to force a reaction". The only character that can even kind of do this is Rob, who is a special case as he does not have to do anything besides stay alive to build his laser's charge.

Holding back on a bad option when you have much better ones does not limit your character or capabilities. I don't even understand how you came to that conclusion.

You don't have to be less liberal, you just have to respect the fact that you're playing another human being. If it wouldn't work on you, it's probably not a decent option.

I'm still pretty adamant about Ness being a strong character and not having any counterpick worthy problems against Wft but I'm not seeing it for Wft either. If Robin looks to be 5/5 why should Wft who has a better offstage game be that much different?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think that Sun Salutation can be used in many ways, and there isn't really an objective right or wrong way to use it, since the game has a mental side to it. Depending on when and why you use it, it could be the right or wrong answer to an opponent's particular patterns.

 

[Zethoro]

...It could be highly possible she was created as a joke character.
That aside, WFT is extremely awkward. However, her awkward moves can actually be very tricky BECAUSE they're awkward.
I can't really give any advice here that others haven't already, so...good luck.

 

[Fatmanonice]

no range, so many moves with start up lag and end lag with no payoff. Maybe I just suck *** as my main but I've been losing all day to every spammer, roll spammer, noob online I've fought. you cant punish out of shield because her dash grab will actually move past the opponent and miss entirely and her moves just have no range whatsoever to properly punish others whiffed or shielded moves. I wanna be good with her, I really do, but I just seem to LOSE to EVERYTHING my opponents dish out.

Sounds like you need to change up your playstyle. As others have said, she is really unorthodox and that's why she can't be played like a lot of characters. She fights like a weird mash up of Samus and Snake. Like Samus and Snake, I'd argue that she does much better as a defensive character than an offensive one. Lure them in, react, and then capitalize. When it comes to projectiles, she can duck under a good number of them and a fully charged sun salutation and volley ball can cancel out most. Also, I'd argue her shield grab is great against short ranged aerial attacks and all her throws lead to nice follow ups.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Her throws don't really lead to anything. You throw them and then you have to get a read.

 

[im just peachy]

i agree with you, i was so excited about wii fit trainer, she is so funny,
she makes me laugh so i wanted to be good with her, it's so hard to be good with her !
i haven't given up on her yet though, she's still great in her own way

 

[dedekong]

bad hitboxes, predictable and limited approach options. I love her, but...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Her jump is pretty slow too.

 

[Shinuto]

Im just confident that the development team was braindead when testing her....moves that have no reach, huge startup AND endlag with nothing to compensate for it, no real power or knockback....and just....so damn floaty. Deep breathing is pretty much pointless most of the time and her smashes are almost worthless, which makes no sense when other characters have faster, stronger, more reaching smashes then her...and also end quicker. Just all these flaws and nothing to make up for them.

 

[⑨ball]

Im just confident that the development team was braindead when testing her....moves that have no reach,

All of WFT's attack hitboxes match her animations. Asking for more than that is honestly silly.

huge startup AND endlag with nothing to compensate for it

Normals all have decent startup and mostly hit both sides with great knockback.

Aerials all have great startup, combo into themselves, do great damage, and 4/5 auto cancel from SH height.

Smashes are all decently if not incredibly powerful that hit both sides with the ability to be buffed on a character with incredible movement speed, a great recovery, and fantastic projectiles. Seems pretty "compensated" to me.

no real power or knockback

She literally has a kill move in every category of move type in smash bros. What are you even talking about.

....and just....so damn floaty.

She's actually faster falling than Fox but has the ability to control that factor so she doesn't get gimped by bumping into her while recovering like say Diddy Kong. Why would this ever be thought of as a bad thing?

Deep breathing is pretty much pointless most of the time

>buffs damage and knockback to the point we have a kill combo on most top tiers below 90%
>reduces damage and knockback to the point we can stale kill options like Ness' bthrow just by existing
>Heals as a bonus
>Momentum cancels
>Air Stalls
>Best Instant Ledge Hop in the game
>Platform cancels
>Functional taunt in the form of sliding DB

"pretty much pointless"

ok

and her smashes are almost worthless, which makes no sense when other characters have faster, stronger, more reaching smashes then her...and also end quicker.

Just because you as a player can't find a use for something does not make it worthless. There's a good chance that because you don't understand the character well, you are using the moves in a way that is less than optimal.

Smash Bros has always been made with asymmetrical design in mind. This means that weaknesses typically offset or balance out the strengths the character has.

ex: Little Mac has a fantastic ground game, but his aerial game is pretty much non existent with possibly the worst recovery in Smash History

ex: Robin has great space control and fantastic zoning, but has slower running speed than Ganon

ex: Sheik has the best neutral in the game with great running speed, fantastic recovery on aerials, a good grab game and racks up damage fairly nicely, but her attacks themselves all do minuscule damage and knockback giving her killing problems

Sometimes this happens as a result of intent, other times it emerges as a result of the competitive metagame evolving and it's the characters that have players that can work around these weakness that become competitively viable. It should be obvious at this point that WFT also falls into this category.

Just all these flaws and nothing to make up for them.

All of the "flaws" you've listed since your very first posting are non issues if not just flat out wrong, but even if they were you as a player are supposed to make up for them. I probably should have said something earlier but I try my best to avoid sounding too preachy and since I often go through these types of discussions on the Ike boards it gets extremely tiring.

SO
you want to get better? Great. We're here to help. That's what these forums are for. Here's where you start:

Nutrition and Supplements: The WFT Compendium, Index, and FAQ​

 

[Shinuto]

All of WFT's attack hitboxes match her animations. Asking for more than that is honestly silly.


Normals all have decent startup and mostly hit both sides with great knockback.

Aerials all have great startup, combo into themselves, do great damage, and 4/5 auto cancel from SH height.

Smashes are all decently if not incredibly powerful that hit both sides with the ability to be buffed on a character with incredible movement speed, a great recovery, and fantastic projectiles. Seems pretty "compensated" to me.


She literally has a kill move in every category of move type in smash bros. What are you even talking about.


She's actually faster falling than Fox but has the ability to control that factor so she doesn't get gimped by bumping into her while recovering like say Diddy Kong. Why would this ever be thought of as a bad thing?


>buffs damage and knockback to the point we have a kill combo on most top tiers below 90%
>reduces damage and knockback to the point we can stale kill options like Ness' bthrow just by existing
>Heals as a bonus
>Momentum cancels
>Air Stalls
>Best Instant Ledge Hop in the game
>Platform cancels
>Functional taunt in the form of sliding DB

"pretty much pointless"

ok



Just because you as a player can't find a use for something does not make it worthless. There's a good chance that because you don't understand the character well, you are using the moves in a way that is less than optimal.

Smash Bros has always been made with asymmetrical design in mind. This means that weaknesses typically offset or balance out the strengths the character has.

ex: Little Mac has a fantastic ground game, but his aerial game is pretty much non existent with possibly the worst recovery in Smash History

ex: Robin has great space control and fantastic zoning, but has slower running speed than Ganon

ex: Sheik has the best neutral in the game with great running speed, fantastic recovery on aerials, a good grab game and racks up damage fairly nicely, but her attacks themselves all do minuscule damage and knockback giving her killing problems

Sometimes this happens as a result of intent, other times it emerges as a result of the competitive metagame evolving and it's the characters that have players that can work around these weakness that become competitively viable. It should be obvious at this point that WFT also falls into this category.



All of the "flaws" you've listed since your very first posting are non issues if not just flat out wrong, but even if they were you as a player are supposed to make up for them. I probably should have said something earlier but I try my best to avoid sounding too preachy and since I often go through these types of discussions on the Ike boards it gets extremely tiring.

SO
you want to get better? Great. We're here to help. That's what these forums are for. Here's where you start:

Nutrition and Supplements: The WFT Compendium, Index, and FAQ​

ughhh...im so embarassed, I had a tantrum last night due to long string of humiliating defeats. Thank you.