How a non-Zelda player would change her

[LovinMitts]

I made a thread a few days ago that was entirely consisting of my gripes with how Zelda was designed. One of the people who replied asked how I would change her to make her less annoying (to me) to fight, but also keep her viable as a character.

The approach I took was to make her a more aggressive character by improving her approach while also making it less desirable to sit in one place on the defensive for too long.

Spoiler

If something isn't listed, then I didn't think it needed to be changed. Smashboards crashed the first time I tried this and I lost the whole thing, so let's try this again.

SPECIALS:

Nayru's Love- The two outermost hitboxes have been moved closer to Zelda. The final hit does 6 damage. Knockback compensated to remain the same. Angle changed to be more horizontal.
(Range was nerfed because this move was a tad centralizing and the goal of this post is to make Zelda more aggressive. Since the move is hard to approach, I often see it used as a panic button.)

Din's Fire- Changed to be a mix of Smash 4 and PM Din's. Detonates as soon as the button is released, but has two distinct sizes with different utilities.

At close range, it does 6 damage and has weak knockback with little growth to promote followups. When detonated at close range, Zelda can act out of it in 8 frames.

At mid to long range, it pops opponents up and does 11 damage.

It retains most of it's speed, but it is slightly slower for the purpose of being easier to control. 18 frames after detonation, it flies back to Zelda.

At close range, it doesn't fly back at all. At mid to long range, it flies back slowly, doing 5 damage if it connects with an opponent and almost no knockback.
(As a reference for the distances, think a quarter of dream land as close range hit, and 3/4's to Dreamland and 1/4th as the mid to long range hit )

Farore's Wind- The first hitbox has set knockback (Similar to Melee) that's low enough to have fastfallers put in a techchase situation. The knockback on the reappearing hitbox is changed to be more horizontal and it now does 5 damage. The move retains it's cancel mechanics.

NORMALS (grounded):

Dash Attack- Less knockback growth. Propels Zelda farther forward to make boost grabbing viable for her, similarly to Sheik.

Forward Tilt- Knocks opponents straight up rather that toward Zelda. Lower knockback growth.
(DIing the move is more effective)

Up Tilt- Hitbox appears on frame 10 and ends on frame 26. Right arm intangibility starts on frame 12 and ends on frame 24.

Forward Smash- Startup increased from 10 to 12. The move now lasts for 33 frames. Final hit does 15 damage from 13.
(This was to make it riskier to use, since it has such a high reward when landed.)
AERIALS:

Nair- Final hit does 7 damage. Knockback uncompensated.

Fair- Becomes active on frame 5 instead of 8 until frame 8, landing lag decreased to 16 frames. (8, L-cancelled)
Does 8 damage. Base knockback reduced, knockback growth reduced to where it doesn't kill at a reasonable percent. Knockback angle changed to be more vertical.

(Knockback at low %'s is enough to set up for grabs and sets up for aerials at mid %'s)

Bair- Gets old fair's frame data. Landing lag increased from 18 to 22. (11 when L cancelled)

Up Air- The small hitbox that connects into the big hit does 7 instead of 5.

Down Air- More knockback growth to knock opponents down at earlier %'s.

(It's a bit awkward that it has grounded opponents stumbling at certain percents instead of popping them up)

GRABS/THROWS:

Standing Grab- Comes out on frame 5 instead of 8, ends on frame 6 instead of 9.

Dash Grab- Comes out on frame 8 instead of 10, ends on frame 10 instead of 12.

Pivot Grab- Comes out on frame 12 instead of 13, ends on frame 13 instead of 14.

Pummel- Damaged decreased from 3 to 2.

Up Throw- Opponent thrown on frame 24 instead of frame 29. Animation sped up to compensate.

Forward Throw- Opponent thrown on frame 22 instead of frame 18. Animation slowed to compensate.

(Makes it easier to react to. Better solution than giving it higher knockback.)

MISC:

Traction slightly lower to allow for better wavedashes/wavelands.

Jumpsquat shortened from 5 to 4 frames.

Electric SFX are quieter.

Thoughts? What changes would you make to this? Do you see this is as too much of a change?

Also, a thanks to everyone who responded to my previous thread. It was really cool to see you all respond to someone practically bashing your main with such maturity and constructiveness.

EDIT 1: Changes were made to Nayru's Love, Din's Fire,Up Throw, Down Throw (reverted), Forward Throw, Up Air, Forward Tilt, Fall speed (reverted), Fair, Bair, and Nair based on suggestions.

 

[Edzyyy]

You said you wanted to make Zelda more aggressive by improving her approach, but all I see are nerfs.

Nayru's Love- The two outermost hitboxes have been moved closer to Zelda. The final hit does 6 damage. Knockback compensated to remain the same.
(Range was nerfed because this move was a tad centralizing and the goal of this post is to make Zelda more aggressive. Since the move is hard to approach, I often see it used as a panic button.)

So this is just a complete nerf. Sure, it's Zelda's most annoying attack, but what buffs will you give to balance it out?

Din's Fire- Changed to be a mix of Smash 4 and PM Din's. Detonates as soon as the button is released, but has three distinct sizes with different utilities.
At close range, it does 6 damage and has weak knockback with little growth to promote followups. At mid range, it does 11 damage and pops opponents up and in the direction in came from (Towards Zelda, that is), and at long range, it does 17 damage and kills.
It retains most of it's speed, but it is slightly slower for the purpose of being easier to control. 18 frames after detonation, it flies back to Zelda at a set speed depending on the distance.
At close range, it doesn't fly back at all. At mid range, it flies back at moderate speed, doing 3 damage and negligible knockback. At far range, it flies back rather fast, does 4 damage, and pops opponents up.
(As a reference for the distances, think a quarter of dream land as close, 3/4's as middle, and dreamland and a quarter as far)

So now you've removed the mine properties of Din's and made it back to its previous iterations. This is also a complete nerf as in Melee and Brawl (not sure of sm4sh), it's a very predictable move that no good player ever gets hit by.

The close range version is useless as the move itself is laggy on start and finish and doesn't have enough mobility to place it where you need it. If you change the move to be quicker, then it just becomes easy to spam.
Medium range is similar to what it currently is which makes it a direct nerf from its current because it no longer can be placed.
Long range is actually nice because it makes for brainless full map edgeguarding. Doesn't seem like its a good idea to make Zelda more aggressive.

Farore's Wind- The first hitbox has set knockback (Similar to Melee) that's low enough to have fastfallers put in a techchase situation. The knockback on the reappearing hitbox is changed to be more horizontal and it now does 5 damage. The move retains it's cancel mechanics.

The first hitbox is a buff, but the move already puts Fox and Falco into a techchase situation. Reappearing hitbox is negligible, but could be used for edgeguarding purposes.

Dash Attack- Less knockback growth. Propels Zelda farther forward to make boost grabbing viable for her, similarly to Sheik.

Pretty sure Sheik's boost grab is good because of her initial dash movement, not the dash attack. Could be wrong. Less knockback growth would be nice for combos but good Zeldas won't be spamming dash attack and its already alright so negligible.

Forward Tilt- Knocks opponents straight up rather that toward Zelda.
(To make DIing the move more effective)

So just a nerf.

Up Tilt- Hitbox appears on frame 10 and ends on frame 26. Right arm intangibility starts on frame 12 and ends on frame 24.

I don't know if this is a buff or a nerf, but it does nothing to change Zelda's playstyle.

Forward Smash- Startup increased from 10 to 12. The move now lasts for 33 frames. Final hit does 15 damage from 13.
(This was to make it riskier to use, since it has such a high reward when landed.)

Reasonable I guess. Only few things are more irritating than a Zelda spamming low endlag Forward Smash.

Nair- Landing lag increased from 17 to 20 frames. (10 when L cancelled) Final hit does 6 damage.

Fair- Landing lag increased from 18 to 24. (12 when L cancelled)
(Again, made to be more high-risk-high-reward)

More nerfs.

Up Air- Strong hitbox size decreased. Landing lag decreased from 25 to 22. (11 When L-cancelled)

Another nerf because landing lag is negligible on this attack. It's not like Zelda can jugggle anyone with her slow aerial speed.

Down Air- More knockback growth to knock opponents down at earlier %'s.

I really don't know what this tries to accomplish.

GRABS/THROWS:

Standing Grab- Comes out on frame 5 instead of 8, ends on frame 6 instead of 9.

Dash Grab- Comes out on frame 8 instead of 10, ends on frame 10 instead of 12.

Pivot Grab- Comes out on frame 12 instead of 13, ends on frame 13 instead of 14.

Pummel- Damaged decreased from 3 to 2.

A nice buff.

Forward Throw- More knockback growth
(To make DI traps less effective at higher %'s)

Down Throw- Higher base knockback, lower knockback growth, more horizontal angle.
(These changes are to allow players who know how to DI the throw avoid followups easier.)

But then you nerf her throws so she can have even less follow ups. With good DI, you shouldn't be caught up in a follow up anyways unless its a Din's after down throw.

MISC:

Traction slightly lower to allow for better wavedashes/wavelands.

Jumpsquat shortened from 5 to 4 frames.

Slightly faster falling speed.

Electric SFX are quieter.

Here you just normalize Zelda. By making the jumpsquat faster and increasing the falling speed, you're trying to make her more like normal characters (Fox,etc.), but it's not like any of Zelda's aerials gain more utility from improving her SHFFL. None of her aerials are sex kicks, her short hop is still too high, and she still is slow.

So all I see are nerfs where you make her worse, normalize her gameplay, with the only notable buff being a 5 frame grab. She still has ****ty approach options, with even less now that you took away neutral b. I don't see how she could be more aggressive with your changes.

 

[LovinMitts]

You said you wanted to make Zelda more aggressive by improving her approach, but all I see are nerfs.

So all I see are nerfs where you make her worse, normalize her gameplay, with the only notable buff being a 5 frame grab. She still has ****ty approach options, with even less now that you took away neutral b. I don't see how she could be more aggressive with your changes.

You're pretty correct. I'll edit the OP.

 

[Boiko]

Pretty sure Sheik's boost grab is good because of her initial dash movement, not the dash attack. Could be wrong.

Boost grabs transfer momentum from the DA, that's why Sheik's and Meta Knight's are so good and Game and Watch's has him dash grab in place.

 

[Downdraft]

OP, your two threads make it perfectly clear that you don't know the counterplay to Zelda because if you did, your time would be better spent spreading the word to all the naysayers rather than making propositions that as a whole homogenize Zelda more and do little to improve her substantially as a character. Have you at least considered that more viable characters carry some of the same attributes of Zelda if not better? I also doubt you truly understand the risks and rewards of Zelda attacks. Most of her attacks are unsafe on shield and take a significant amount of frames from the idle or shielding position for Zelda to use. She has no low commitment or free attacks. She struggles against mobile characters, characters with good projectiles, characters with faster options than hers, shorter characters, and characters with decent disjoint, and those types of characters cover over half the cast. Combine that with poor regular movement (dash, dash dance, wavedash, air speed), attacks with significant startup or endlag that don't have guaranteed followups (F-smash, lightning kicks, and D-smash are quick but have no followups unless the opponent is hit into Din's), trouble getting back to the stage (floaty and no moves that threaten the space below her or allow her to descend quickly), a frame 11 jab, floaty (dies off the top easy), midweight (average horizontal knockback resistance), reliance on multi-hit attacks whose SDI multipliers got significantly increased in 3.5, and more, and she 's okay at best. People just need to learn the matchup rather than whine online and in real life. There are much harder characters to play against. Maybe you just don't like defensive playstyles, but a game with only one viable archetype isn't very fun or interesting. If you want a game where mobility and great offensive options are a requirement to win, play Melee.

 

[LovinMitts]

Edits were made

 

[Edzyyy]

Boost grabs transfer momentum from the DA, that's why Sheik's and Meta Knight's are so good and Game and Watch's has him dash grab in place.

Learn something new everyday. Thanks.

 

[Kaeldiar]

So, I'm going to do a longer write-up when I have the time, but the tl;dr of this is going to be: That's a stupidly OP Zelda. Better than 3.02 Mewtwo or 3.02 Diddy. If you put this same Zelda in 3.02, she would be the best character. Take it from someone who has been playing testbuilds that include a thing or two that you've included here. I'm working on a critique of both this and @ E Edzyyy 's comments, because I think that both of them are horribly, horribly misinformed. Also, Boiko is right about boost grab being a function of the speed boost during DA

 

[ECHOnce]

Nayru's Love- The two outermost hitboxes have been moved closer to Zelda. The final hit does 6 damage. Knockback compensated to remain the same.
(Range was nerfed because this move was a tad centralizing and the goal of this post is to make Zelda more aggressive. Since the move is hard to approach, I often see it used as a panic button.)

You'll have to clarify which Nayru's you're referring to. The grounded and aerial Nayru's differ in several ways. If listing changes to specific values like this, it would be helpful to readers for you to offer the PM 3.6b vanilla values, since I doubt most people know %/BKB/KBG values off the top of their heads lol. (e.g. Final hit does X% --> 6%).

Din's Fire- Changed to be a mix of Smash 4 and PM Din's. Detonates as soon as the button is released, but has three distinct sizes with different utilities.
At close range, it does 6 damage and has weak knockback with little growth to promote followups. At mid range, it does 11 damage and pops opponents up and in the direction in came from (Towards Zelda, that is), and at long range, it does 17 damage and kills.
It retains most of it's speed, but it is slightly slower for the purpose of being easier to control. 18 frames after detonation, it flies back to Zelda at a set speed depending on the distance.
At close range, it doesn't fly back at all. At mid range, it flies back at moderate speed, doing 3 damage and negligible knockback. At far range, it flies back rather fast, does 4 damage, and pops opponents up.
(As a reference for the distances, think a quarter of dream land as close, 3/4's as middle, and dreamland and a quarter as far)

Spoiler

This would...essentially be taking away one of the few things that still keeps PM Zeldas playing PM Zelda. It's by far the most unique aspect of her moveset, compared to the other games, and has already received a recent and massive overhaul. Your suggestion would be removing the only remaining aspect of the pre-3.5 Din (the fact that it temporarily stayed in place like a mine), in favor for the old vanilla Melee/Brawl/S4 Din mechanic. If you were to suggest removing one of the major vanilla --> PM changes that makes her actually viable in this game, you'll have to provide alternative ways to fix the same problem it tackled. Getting people to approach her.

The vanilla Din is arguably the worst projectile in each game it has been featured in. It's slow --> easy to react to. Its visual often extends further than its hitbox --> it covers much less range than it appears to. And even if it does hit, the KB and damage it deals is tiny. Vanilla game Zeldas are generally built with a moveset of normals that hits opponents far away, and the one thing that could get opponents to approach her is one of the highest risk (0% chance of it hitting so long as they react within 5 seconds and don't forget to shield/dodge/avoid it), lowest reward (if you think about it in terms of % and KB, it kinda only accomplishes what a decent jab or f-tilt would do...lol) moves in each game.
PM Din tackled these problems. It travels more quickly, but can still be reacted to. Its hitboxes match its visuals more closely. And finally it forces opponents to actually approach her. In a game of spacing, opponents are forced to approach when the space around them is made less comfortable/safe than the space near your character. Tools to accomplish this are spammable projectiles and zoning tools. And that's what we got.​

/history lesson. Now let's consider how PM has improved/changed Dins over time, while still maintaining this base goal of forcing opponents to approach.

Vanilla Din is a projectile, but it's obviously not spammable. Pre-3.5 Din's were zoning tools because they simply occupied space, which limited where the opponent could move. However, these allowed for too much leniency, since this could also let Zeldas camp too effectively against non-projectile characters. As a result, 3.5 gave us 1 returning Din where we once had 3 standing Dins. This meant that it still occupied the same amount of space (-ish), but we have less control over where/how/when that space is taken up. Less control --> less flexibility --> less camping. 3.6 beta just tidied up some hitboxes/inputs/camerawork that led to unintended gimmicks.
​

Even if I still don't 100% agree with it, pre-3.5 --> 3.5 Din was a great example of how to push for a drastically different, but sensible+justifiable nerf. Your suggested Dins would be a nerf to how long they occupy space. For now, let's disregard that there have been no major/frequent examples in which Zeldas abuses 3.5 Dins to camp (as was needed to justify changing pre-3.5 Dins in the first place...you'll at least need to come up with some hypothetical examples that can be easily recreated/demonstrated).

If we are to divide up the move into three stages - laying, standing, returning - we can easily say that standing and returning are the two which involve zoning. Standing Dins give more control to the Zelda player. Returning Dins gives less control, and so the PMDT introduced more variables to make the return path work properly. Varying speeds, hitbox inactivity, conditions under which a returning Din "dies" (expires over time, or....=___=....disappears at a hard-to-determine distance off-screen), etc.​

If you're going to nerf the time a Din is being used for zoning by removing an entire stage of the move...(1) how do you justify removing the stage that involves more purposeful control over the stage that's less predictable to the user AND opponent, and (2) how do you justify removing an entire zoning stage instead of just shortening the maximum time they can be used to zone?

Farore's Wind- The first hitbox has set knockback (Similar to Melee) that's low enough to have fastfallers put in a techchase situation. The knockback on the reappearing hitbox is changed to be more horizontal and it now does 5 damage. The move retains it's cancel mechanics.

Frame 2 hitbox move. Usable OOS. Is followed by an interruptable movement option. Buffed so that it knocks down fastfallers for a techchase situation at any %?!

HOLY ****. Now I would LOVE to have this, but such a ridiculous buff would inevitably be followed by some equally crippling nerfs elsewhere. There's no way this would ever feasibly happen, but it's a wonderful idea for @ otheusrex to consider for placing onto a god-tier version of Zelda with JC Nayrus and all xDD

Dash Attack- Less knockback growth. Propels Zelda farther forward to make boost grabbing viable for her, similarly to Sheik.

Is the KBG significant enough to nerf in the first place? Iirc it's not much more than the average dash attack KBG. Not sure if that buff is justifiable either. Sure, I'd love it, but Zelda doesn't have any trouble getting grabs otherwise. I get that you're trying to help her camp less by giving her move "approach" options, but boost grabbing isn't safe as an plain approach option. Ever. It's only good as a mixup/read or follow-ups...so tbh...all this buff could accomplish is giving Zelda a potential chain grab on mid-weights...or at least a 50-50 regrab off of D-throw/F-throw mixups, similar to pre-3.6 Sheik. Zelda doesn't need that.

Forward Tilt- Knocks opponents straight up rather that toward Zelda.
(To make DIing the move more effective)

Spoiler

Changing KB angles doesn't change how effectively it can be DI'ed. Changing BKB and KBG in conjunction with this would, but why is this necessary? The function of tilts is to either hit away an opponent with something far-reaching but weaker than a smash, or to prop them up for potential follow-ups. Zelda's F-tilt stands out as on that can send opponents behind her because her movement is slow. Sure, she has tele-cancels and a great waveland, but that's not going to help her reach opponents that get sent even slightly away from an F-tilt past mid-%s. It may be a bit weird to DI if you're not used to it, but other characters have existed with similar moves and the meta has evolved around them just fine. Marth's U-tilt on fast-fallers is a perfect example. It has a bit more vertical reach, but it props opponents up above Marth to combo into itself if DI'ed badly, or send them a bit behind him if DI'ed well (which can still be comboed into itself at low-mid %s lol...). Weird DI moves aren't that uncommon, and even then, I can't see how removing Zeldas would get her to approach more. All it would accomplish is changing her follow-ups and removing the uniqueness from one of her few staple moves. And while you may question me calling it a staple move...Zelda mains would probably agree that it's one of the few good moves that actually work "properly" in Brawl and S4 lol...(iirc Melee F-tilt was poop, sue me if I'm wrong).

Up Tilt- Hitbox appears on frame 10 and ends on frame 26. Right arm intangibility starts on frame 12 and ends on frame 24.

Again, 3.6 values would be nice for comparison. Don't know her frame data off the top of my head either.

Forward Smash- Startup increased from 10 to 12. The move now lasts for 33 frames. Final hit does 15 damage from 13.
(This was to make it riskier to use, since it has such a high reward when landed.)

Spoiler

It's already just as risky to use as most F-smashes in most situations. It is less risky in that it can be more easily used as a mixup, since it lingers and still has a strong KB if the opponent pulls a dumb and falls into it after it starts. That's called player error on the opponent's part. Nerfing characters due to player error isn't...it just shouldn't happen lmao. Git gud. The second benefit of its "lingering"-hitboxes-leading-into-strong-KB over your average F-smash it gives more leniency on the reaction/timing for tech-chase punishes, punishes against ledge get-ups, and other RPS situations, but as with other characters with similar multihit / lingering hitbox / armor attacks, this is justifiable because the character is still limited to one of the RPS options in the read. It doesn't allow Zelda to cover more than one RPS option in a single move, like Charizard/Wario's D-smash range can (although those are justifiable because they aren't their stronger smashes and don't have lingering hitboxes). If the move had all three strengths of (1) having good/ok kill power with long/short startup lag, (2) leniency in timing/reaction from multihits/lingering hitboxes/armor, and (3) lower risk of missing RPS punishes like more range to cover tech-chase options, then sure. It would be justifiable.

I was hoping to go through with a full review, but I'm holding a fest in an hour and needa clean the place up aha. Maybe later, although I think this is enough to point out some recurring flaws in logic; if you can identify any trends in the things I pointed out, you can probably apply that problem-solving to the rest and adjust accordingly, if you feel its necessary.

 

[Edzyyy]

@ ECHOnce
UP-B is frame 6. http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data-3-5.339419/

@Kaeldiar
I look forward to it.

 

[otheusrex]

I made a thread a few days ago that was entirely consisting of my gripes with how Zelda was designed. One of the people who replied asked how I would change her to make her less annoying (to me) to fight, but also keep her viable as a character.

The approach I took was to make her a more aggressive character by improving her approach while also making it less desirable to sit in one place on the defensive for too long.

Spoiler

If something isn't listed, then I didn't think it needed to be changed. Smashboards crashed the first time I tried this and I lost the whole thing, so let's try this again.

SPECIALS:

Nayru's Love- The two outermost hitboxes have been moved closer to Zelda. The final hit does 6 damage. Knockback compensated to remain the same. Angle changed to be more horizontal.
(Range was nerfed because this move was a tad centralizing and the goal of this post is to make Zelda more aggressive. Since the move is hard to approach, I often see it used as a panic button.)

Din's Fire- Changed to be a mix of Smash 4 and PM Din's. Detonates as soon as the button is released, but has two distinct sizes with different utilities.

At close range, it does 6 damage and has weak knockback with little growth to promote followups. When detonated at close range, Zelda can act out of it in 8 frames.

At mid to long range, it pops opponents up and does 11 damage.

It retains most of it's speed, but it is slightly slower for the purpose of being easier to control. 18 frames after detonation, it flies back to Zelda.

At close range, it doesn't fly back at all. At mid to long range, it flies back slowly, doing 5 damage if it connects with an opponent and almost no knockback.
(As a reference for the distances, think a quarter of dream land as close range hit, and 3/4's to Dreamland and 1/4th as the mid to long range hit )

Farore's Wind- The first hitbox has set knockback (Similar to Melee) that's low enough to have fastfallers put in a techchase situation. The knockback on the reappearing hitbox is changed to be more horizontal and it now does 5 damage. The move retains it's cancel mechanics.

NORMALS (grounded):

Dash Attack- Less knockback growth. Propels Zelda farther forward to make boost grabbing viable for her, similarly to Sheik.

Forward Tilt- Knocks opponents straight up rather that toward Zelda. Lower knockback growth.
(DIing the move is more effective)

Up Tilt- Hitbox appears on frame 10 and ends on frame 26. Right arm intangibility starts on frame 12 and ends on frame 24.

Forward Smash- Startup increased from 10 to 12. The move now lasts for 33 frames. Final hit does 15 damage from 13.
(This was to make it riskier to use, since it has such a high reward when landed.)
AERIALS:

Nair- Final hit does 7 damage. Knockback uncompensated.

Fair- Becomes active on frame 5 instead of 8 until frame 8, landing lag decreased to 16 frames. (8, L-cancelled)
Does 8 damage. Base knockback reduced, knockback growth reduced to where it doesn't kill at a reasonable percent. Knockback angle changed to be more vertical.

(Knockback at low %'s is enough to set up for grabs and sets up for aerials at mid %'s)

Bair- Gets old fair's frame data. Landing lag increased from 18 to 22. (11 when L cancelled)

Up Air- The small hitbox that connects into the big hit does 7 instead of 5.

Down Air- More knockback growth to knock opponents down at earlier %'s.

(It's a bit awkward that it has grounded opponents stumbling at certain percents instead of popping them up)

GRABS/THROWS:

Standing Grab- Comes out on frame 5 instead of 8, ends on frame 6 instead of 9.

Dash Grab- Comes out on frame 8 instead of 10, ends on frame 10 instead of 12.

Pivot Grab- Comes out on frame 12 instead of 13, ends on frame 13 instead of 14.

Pummel- Damaged decreased from 3 to 2.

Up Throw- Opponent thrown on frame 24 instead of frame 29. Animation sped up to compensate.

Forward Throw- Opponent thrown on frame 22 instead of frame 18. Animation slowed to compensate.

(Makes it easier to react to. Better solution than giving it higher knockback.)

MISC:

Traction slightly lower to allow for better wavedashes/wavelands.

Jumpsquat shortened from 5 to 4 frames.

Electric SFX are quieter.

Thoughts? What changes would you make to this? Do you see this is as too much of a change?

Also, a thanks to everyone who responded to my previous thread. It was really cool to see you all respond to someone practically bashing your main with such maturity and constructiveness.

EDIT 1: Changes were made to Nayru's Love, Din's Fire,Up Throw, Down Throw (reverted), Forward Throw, Up Air, Forward Tilt, Fall speed (reverted), Fair, Bair, and Nair based on suggestions.

Thank you for your time and energy! I'll do my best to impliment these for tuesday, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get dins to do exactly what you said, I'll see though.

 

[LovinMitts]

Thank you for your time and energy! I'll do my best to impliment these for tuesday, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get dins to do exactly what you said, I'll see though.

Whoa wait, you're actually gonna make a PSA or something based on my suggestions?

 

[otheusrex]

http://smashboards.com/threads/triforce-of-inspiration-the-last-piece-of-the-tetraforce-is.395380/

I am the chosen representative of the wielder of the Triforce of Inspiration; did you not know?

 

[otheusrex]

@ LovinMitts a few questions actually...

1) normal grab speed is 7. did you really want me to make it faster than normal ones?
2) Dins fire not returning on short hits might be possible, i have an idea how i might do that but not sure if it will work yet. it already sort of waits around 18 frames after it explodes before starting back to her, did you mean longer? I'm not sure yet how I'd do that if so.
3)a lot of multihits you mentioned having final hits doing a certian amount of damage. Are you counting the damage for the entire move? or did you want the final hits to do X damage in addition to all the 1 damage that the linking hits do?
4) fmsash lasts 33 frames total start to finish? or do you mean the hitboxes last for 33 frames before going to the end of the animation?

 

[LovinMitts]

@ LovinMitts a few questions actually...

1) normal grab speed is 7. did you really want me to make it faster than normal ones?
2) Dins fire not returning on short hits might be possible, i have an idea how i might do that but not sure if it will work yet. it already sort of waits around 18 frames after it explodes before starting back to her, did you mean longer? I'm not sure yet how I'd do that if so.
3)a lot of multihits you mentioned having final hits doing a certian amount of damage. Are you counting the damage for the entire move? or did you want the final hits to do X damage in addition to all the 1 damage that the linking hits do?
4) fmsash lasts 33 frames total start to finish? or do you mean the hitboxes last for 33 frames before going to the end of the animation?

Heh, I should've looked into the grab thing. Yea, 7 is fine.

No, I didn't mean longer, I just guessed on the amount of frames since I couldn't find it under th frame data thread.

I took into account the linking hits (sorta). If you feel like something is too much, feel free to change it. I meant for the final hits to do that amont of damage, plus the linking hits.

As far as the forward smash goes, I meant the attacking portion of the animation should last 33 frames, but with the same active frames. Startup and whatever else remains the same

 

[otheusrex]

ok got it.

 

[ECHOnce]

@ ECHOnce
UP-B is frame 6. http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data-3-5.339419/

LOLL fml I've been misled for so long. I recall back in 3.02 I think someone told me that it came out on frame 2 and that it should be super free every time to get. No wonder I always get hit out of it so often. It's because it's not a pseudo shine move lmao. Thought I was just unlucky af xDD The things we hear during our scrub days and take for granted as truth..heh...

Not even looking at the linked frame data, I completely believe that it's 6 frames because that's what it always felt like. All it would bring is shaaaame

 

[otheusrex]

@ LovinMitts , another question

you say her dair should do more kb at low percents, you don't perchance mean down tilt do you? if you do mean dair, perhaps I should ask how exactly you'd like the move to work/function for her. Is that some sort of shffl option, a marth like oos option, or a combo starter? You don't normally see zeldas going for dair on grounded opponents unless the're super confident and trying to style cause it's slow to come out, requires you to be right on top of them (a big investment for such a slow and easily juggled character), and not that rewarding. The fact that you have a sweetspot mechanic with it also changes the dynamic of how you use it. I can do whatever you want and can extrapolate even to design what you're thinking, but in this case i need more description.

I suppose I should also ask in a similar vein what you're vision for her upthrow and fthrow changes are. Is one an improvement and the other not? are they both improvements or nerfs? and is the goal to make them DI traps/mixups?

the electric sfx change. she has a lot of electric attacks but almost no electric sfx. on kicks, for example, it's actually a magic element sfx, the electric sfx is what's on pikachu's attacks mostly. What moves specifically are too loud?

 

[LovinMitts]

@ LovinMitts , another question

you say her dair should do more kb at low percents, you don't perchance mean down tilt do you? if you do mean dair, perhaps I should ask how exactly you'd like the move to work/function for her. Is that some sort of shffl option, a marth like oos option, or a combo starter? You don't normally see zeldas going for dair on grounded opponents unless the're super confident and trying to style cause it's slow to come out, requires you to be right on top of them (a big investment for such a slow and easily juggled character), and not that rewarding. The fact that you have a sweetspot mechanic with it also changes the dynamic of how you use it. I can do whatever you want and can extrapolate even to design what you're thinking, but in this case i need more description.

I suppose I should also ask in a similar vein what you're vision for her upthrow and fthrow changes are. Is one an improvement and the other not? are they both improvements or nerfs? and is the goal to make them DI traps/mixups?

the electric sfx change. she has a lot of electric attacks but almost no electric sfx. on kicks, for example, it's actually a magic element sfx, the electric sfx is what's on pikachu's attacks mostly. What moves specifically are too loud?

Yeah, I meant dair. I wanted it to have a similar function to Ness' dair in that it's a combo starter when used on grounded opponents. I didn't really even think about it being slow and difficult to land when typing that all up. If making have quicker startup would help, then yeah, make it faster.

The up throw change was meant to make it more difficult to react to by making it faster. Do you think it's unnecessary? It may be too negligible to make a huge difference now that I think about it. The forward throw change was more of a nerf since it becomes easier to react to and DI since it executes a little slower.

The SFX thing applies primarily to up smash.

 

[otheusrex]

@ LovinMitts . What are your thoughts for the fsmash changes, and what is the effect that you're imagining

 

[LovinMitts]

@ LovinMitts . What are your thoughts for the fsmash changes, and what is the effect that you're imagining

The idea was two additional frames startup and four additional frames of lag at the end. Same active frames with the final hit doing 2 more damage, knockback compensated to be the same

 

[otheusrex]

oh ok, the move doesn't have 33 active frames though

 

[LovinMitts]

oh ok, the move doesn't have 33 active frames though

I know. The move keeps the same active frames, it just has the extra 4 inactive frames on the end to increase the ending lag

 

[otheusrex]

I know. The move keeps the same active frames, it just has the extra 4 inactive frames on the end to increase the ending lag

ok now I understand

 

[otheusrex]

@ LovinMitts
Ta da♪

http://smashboards.com/threads/triforce-of-inspiration-the-last-piece-of-the-tetraforce-is.395380/page-4#post-19650669