Whats up. i have been working a lot on my IC game and i can beat my roomate when he plays anyone else but Samus. the staright missile spams and the constant down smashing is killing me, not to mention the range difference cause i have a hard time getting close do grab. not to mention when i shield grab, he clips me where my shield is gone. i make him play me with Samus so I can find away around him but i still am stuck. if anyone has any ideas please let me know
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Help vs. Samus
- Thread starter Aquarius
- Start date
Binx
Smash Master
I thought it was as simple as downthrow upsmash to uairs and just being carefull, but the best samus in oregon just 4 stocked me without doing almost anything but missle I think you can neatral air through them and I know if you time the icblocks right it will hit the missle and destroy it and the second one will hit them, I think those are you only options, as far as other approaches and combos I will leave it up to more experienced smashers.
Binx speaks truth about the iceblocks; if you jump when you fire them and time them right, you can hit a missile and break it with the first iceblock while the second goes through. The only thing to watch out for is if Samus missile cancels then moves in on you while you're vulnerable and in the air. Also, a charge shot will completely vaporize the iceblocks. Since you can't move after you've fired one, you're a sitting duck. It's worth being careful about.
One of the biggest problems you will have in this matchup comes from Nana's inability to DI. You are most likely, on the ground, to get hit by a down-tilt or down-smash, while in the air you will probably get f-airedor u-aired. Any DI you have will NOT be mimicked by Nana, which means it's easy for you two to get split up.
That's only the first part of the bad news. The second part is that if Samus just spams missiles while Nana is split up, she WILL hit her. Your best option would be to angle f-tilts and knock them down, CC them for Nana until she's back with you, or light shield them so the explosion doesn't connect with her.
You can punish Samus' laggier moves from shield with well timed wavedashes out of shield. If she f-smashes and you shield, you can enjoy a free grab if you're fast.
Use the 3D--Double Direction Downsmash--if you think she's going to sidestep a lot. Here's some frame data to tell you why; if you don't like frame data, then just trust me that you improve your chances of hitting Samus by doing it.
To do a 3D, wavedash in facing forwards. Hold opposite the direction you're facing and d-smash as soon as possible. You will down-smash facing backwards, but Nana will down-smash facing forwards. This is a useful trick because your down-smash starts behind you and ends in front, meaning the front hit is delayed. This helps YOUR down-smash come out faster, and Nana's come out later. This spreads out the attack and, in a sense, makes it last longer. On to the data.
Samus' sidestep has 13 frames of invulnerability with 7 frames of vulnerability afterwards.
The IC's down-smash comes out on frame 6 and ends on frame 11.
Nana has a delay of 6 frames.
So, your d-smash will come out on frame 6. Nana's will be delayed by 6 more, and last for another 5. This means that your attack is lasting for essentially 11 frames. This is not normally the case--usually you are facing only one direction, so half of the down-smash misses out on the fun. With a 3D, you cover both sides.
An 11 frame attack versus a 13 frame spot dodge. Your odds of connecting against a dodging Samus with this trick are MASSIVELY increased compared to a normal spot dodge.
The trick does have a weakness, however, and it comes from hitting Samus with the very tip of your d-smash. If you do that, you will be putting a great deal of time between your hit and Nana's, and both hits will only have one or two frames to connect (which isn't much).
So if you attack on frame 2 of the spot dodge, your 11 frame attack will end by Samus' 13th frame of invulnerability. That means you missed.
If you attack on frame 7 of Samus' dodge and only reach with the tip, then you will connect on frame 13, when she is invulnerable, then Nana will connect 11 frames later, when she can shield or dodge again. Of course, if the Samus tried to attack, odds are Nana would hit her first, so you're still pretty good on that score. It's nice to know, however, that if you don't reach with the tip, you have even more leeway, so NORMALLY this trick is pretty good.
Here's the shortened explanation for the tl;dr'ers. Doing a 3D makes your downsmash last longer and more likely to hit Samus' dodge, which a lot of Samus players like to use.
That took awhile to write, so I'll post more later.
One of the biggest problems you will have in this matchup comes from Nana's inability to DI. You are most likely, on the ground, to get hit by a down-tilt or down-smash, while in the air you will probably get f-airedor u-aired. Any DI you have will NOT be mimicked by Nana, which means it's easy for you two to get split up.
That's only the first part of the bad news. The second part is that if Samus just spams missiles while Nana is split up, she WILL hit her. Your best option would be to angle f-tilts and knock them down, CC them for Nana until she's back with you, or light shield them so the explosion doesn't connect with her.
You can punish Samus' laggier moves from shield with well timed wavedashes out of shield. If she f-smashes and you shield, you can enjoy a free grab if you're fast.
Use the 3D--Double Direction Downsmash--if you think she's going to sidestep a lot. Here's some frame data to tell you why; if you don't like frame data, then just trust me that you improve your chances of hitting Samus by doing it.
To do a 3D, wavedash in facing forwards. Hold opposite the direction you're facing and d-smash as soon as possible. You will down-smash facing backwards, but Nana will down-smash facing forwards. This is a useful trick because your down-smash starts behind you and ends in front, meaning the front hit is delayed. This helps YOUR down-smash come out faster, and Nana's come out later. This spreads out the attack and, in a sense, makes it last longer. On to the data.
Samus' sidestep has 13 frames of invulnerability with 7 frames of vulnerability afterwards.
The IC's down-smash comes out on frame 6 and ends on frame 11.
Nana has a delay of 6 frames.
So, your d-smash will come out on frame 6. Nana's will be delayed by 6 more, and last for another 5. This means that your attack is lasting for essentially 11 frames. This is not normally the case--usually you are facing only one direction, so half of the down-smash misses out on the fun. With a 3D, you cover both sides.
An 11 frame attack versus a 13 frame spot dodge. Your odds of connecting against a dodging Samus with this trick are MASSIVELY increased compared to a normal spot dodge.
The trick does have a weakness, however, and it comes from hitting Samus with the very tip of your d-smash. If you do that, you will be putting a great deal of time between your hit and Nana's, and both hits will only have one or two frames to connect (which isn't much).
So if you attack on frame 2 of the spot dodge, your 11 frame attack will end by Samus' 13th frame of invulnerability. That means you missed.
If you attack on frame 7 of Samus' dodge and only reach with the tip, then you will connect on frame 13, when she is invulnerable, then Nana will connect 11 frames later, when she can shield or dodge again. Of course, if the Samus tried to attack, odds are Nana would hit her first, so you're still pretty good on that score. It's nice to know, however, that if you don't reach with the tip, you have even more leeway, so NORMALLY this trick is pretty good.
Here's the shortened explanation for the tl;dr'ers. Doing a 3D makes your downsmash last longer and more likely to hit Samus' dodge, which a lot of Samus players like to use.
That took awhile to write, so I'll post more later.
Binx
Smash Master
too good wobbles, your awesome, thanks for helping us other ICs
But wait, there's more.
Samus' f-tilt is an incredibly potent move, and is one of the most annoying things to fight. I think I have a solution for beating it though, and it's a particularly vicious one at that.
Of course, it only works at low percents because what you're doing is CC'ing the f-tilt into a grab. If you do that successfully, you just might get a stock out of a CC'ed move. It works really well against Sheik's f-tilt as well. A lot better, actually, since Sheik's f-tilt wants to send you up while Samus' sends you out. CC'ing Samus' at later percents knocks you over or slides you too far.
Be careful about light shielding on platforms; when you're knocked off, you hit the ground in free fall, which can leave you open to tech chases and fast attacks.
Against characters that outrange IC's, I'm a big fan of using jumping blizzards to build percent and then force them to approach where you can use your advantageous shield game; this doesn't really work against Samus unless she's in the air--which she rarely is--because she can CC into d-smash and d-tilt. In fact, she can do that to almost all of your moves. F-air is the best option against this, but you have to watch out for up-tilt, since THAT outranges you as well.
Short hop f-air is a really good move, but only for defeating her d-smash. It will hop over the tip, and if you're DI'ing in afterwards you can fast fall it and shield; if you slam her into the ground, you can tech chase, and if you pop her up you can wavedash out and chase with up-airs.
You're at your strongest against Samus when she's above you. If she's on a platform, abuse your up-air because it's your safest move. Also note that with a full jumped up-air, you can hit through the platforms of Yoshi's Story, Dreamland, FoD, and Pokemon Stadium's Grass and Water formations. I don't know if it works on Battlefield though, and I don't have a memory card right now so I can't check
Anyhow, use that knowledge to your advantage if--for whatever reason--any character tries platform camping. On Dreamland especially, since only the very tip of your hammer peeks through. This means nobody can beat you in priority, since it spaces for you perfectly.
I recommend if you're going to full jump up-air that you use the c-stick; it lets you keep your horizontal momentum more (so you cover more range) and you don't risk double jumping into CC'ed moves or d-airs or whatever.
Another powerful trick is the platform chain grab, which works especially well against floaties. Down-throw beneath a platform, wait for them to tech on the platforms above you, and then waveland into another grab. Use this opportunity to charge up-smashes and then d-throw, and you can KO earlier than normal. MAKE SURE YOU CHARGE THE UP SMASH, or you might accidentally have Nana fall through the platform when you down-throw.
Uhh... Ice-blocks are your friend, watch out for up-tilt, and that's all I got.
Samus' f-tilt is an incredibly potent move, and is one of the most annoying things to fight. I think I have a solution for beating it though, and it's a particularly vicious one at that.
Of course, it only works at low percents because what you're doing is CC'ing the f-tilt into a grab. If you do that successfully, you just might get a stock out of a CC'ed move. It works really well against Sheik's f-tilt as well. A lot better, actually, since Sheik's f-tilt wants to send you up while Samus' sends you out. CC'ing Samus' at later percents knocks you over or slides you too far.
Be careful about light shielding on platforms; when you're knocked off, you hit the ground in free fall, which can leave you open to tech chases and fast attacks.
Against characters that outrange IC's, I'm a big fan of using jumping blizzards to build percent and then force them to approach where you can use your advantageous shield game; this doesn't really work against Samus unless she's in the air--which she rarely is--because she can CC into d-smash and d-tilt. In fact, she can do that to almost all of your moves. F-air is the best option against this, but you have to watch out for up-tilt, since THAT outranges you as well.
Short hop f-air is a really good move, but only for defeating her d-smash. It will hop over the tip, and if you're DI'ing in afterwards you can fast fall it and shield; if you slam her into the ground, you can tech chase, and if you pop her up you can wavedash out and chase with up-airs.
You're at your strongest against Samus when she's above you. If she's on a platform, abuse your up-air because it's your safest move. Also note that with a full jumped up-air, you can hit through the platforms of Yoshi's Story, Dreamland, FoD, and Pokemon Stadium's Grass and Water formations. I don't know if it works on Battlefield though, and I don't have a memory card right now so I can't check
Anyhow, use that knowledge to your advantage if--for whatever reason--any character tries platform camping. On Dreamland especially, since only the very tip of your hammer peeks through. This means nobody can beat you in priority, since it spaces for you perfectly.
I recommend if you're going to full jump up-air that you use the c-stick; it lets you keep your horizontal momentum more (so you cover more range) and you don't risk double jumping into CC'ed moves or d-airs or whatever.
Another powerful trick is the platform chain grab, which works especially well against floaties. Down-throw beneath a platform, wait for them to tech on the platforms above you, and then waveland into another grab. Use this opportunity to charge up-smashes and then d-throw, and you can KO earlier than normal. MAKE SURE YOU CHARGE THE UP SMASH, or you might accidentally have Nana fall through the platform when you down-throw.
Uhh... Ice-blocks are your friend, watch out for up-tilt, and that's all I got.
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
You can also desynch from a SHFFLed Fair so that could potentially help.
But yeah, great advice Wobbles. It helps ALOT.
Binx
Smash Master
Thanks wobbles, beastly. I've been using the jumping blizzard against worse players for a while but something always feels risky about using it on better people, is it highly punishably on a hit?
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Jumping blizzard as in, Nanapult or jumping blizzard as in both ICs together?
Binx
Smash Master
Both ICS or short hop bliz solo popo, I am pretty sure thats what wobbles meant, it has alot of range so I sometimes use it to rack up some damage when nana is dead or at the beginning of a match as a WTF was that, I found out if you hit with the whole thing when the ICs are together it does 30-33% which is pretty awesome.
I use both ICs together, or Nanapult it. If they DI or CC towards you then you're open, but by connecting with the tip of it you can usually ensure they won't react or know to come in towards you.
Delphiki
Smash Champion
Samus has been bothering more than Peach lately. Second in my worst matchups to a shine-heavy Fox (i.e, one that knows how to fight ICs).
Dair the missiles, Nair doesn't work. I don't even know if it's POSSIBLE, and it's definitely not reliable. Also, POWERSHIELD. Powershielding consistently completely destroys your opponents projectile game, and is frightening to your opponent. They know that their Charge Shot is practically useless aside from techchasing.
Samus is weak in the air, but you have to be careful because her aerials have very little lag. Samus' slowest aerial has less lag than Sheik's fastest! Because of this, most Sami will immediately attack instead evading. This usually will catch your attempt at a shield grab. So - don't try to shieldgrab her Fair, wait for lag afterwards.
Also, DtDair that ***** until she starts escaping. ^_^ RDtDair is also an option. Although usually against good players your best grab option is blizzard, Dt-Usmash, Uair, U/B air.
FYI, Binx: Aftermath 1-stocked me at OC3. Tell him Delphiki wants a rematch. ^_^
Dair the missiles, Nair doesn't work. I don't even know if it's POSSIBLE, and it's definitely not reliable. Also, POWERSHIELD. Powershielding consistently completely destroys your opponents projectile game, and is frightening to your opponent. They know that their Charge Shot is practically useless aside from techchasing.
Samus is weak in the air, but you have to be careful because her aerials have very little lag. Samus' slowest aerial has less lag than Sheik's fastest! Because of this, most Sami will immediately attack instead evading. This usually will catch your attempt at a shield grab. So - don't try to shieldgrab her Fair, wait for lag afterwards.
Also, DtDair that ***** until she starts escaping. ^_^ RDtDair is also an option. Although usually against good players your best grab option is blizzard, Dt-Usmash, Uair, U/B air.
FYI, Binx: Aftermath 1-stocked me at OC3. Tell him Delphiki wants a rematch. ^_^
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol aftermath is easy =|
he's probably not gonna see this, so i'm not gonna say "j/k."
- yes dair the missiles
- any character with a fast downsmash can demolish ic with that move (watch out for links, ylinks, and marios who know what they are doing.) samus is no different. she also has cc dtilts and upB. watch out for her fast reaction moves.
- dodge those freaking missiles. and i'm not just talking sidesteps and rolls. maneuver in the air around them as much as you possibly can... a samus spamming on pokemon stadium can still be approached!
- edgeguard her well. ic are good at it.
he's probably not gonna see this, so i'm not gonna say "j/k."
- yes dair the missiles
- any character with a fast downsmash can demolish ic with that move (watch out for links, ylinks, and marios who know what they are doing.) samus is no different. she also has cc dtilts and upB. watch out for her fast reaction moves.
- dodge those freaking missiles. and i'm not just talking sidesteps and rolls. maneuver in the air around them as much as you possibly can... a samus spamming on pokemon stadium can still be approached!
- edgeguard her well. ic are good at it.
Catching her right out of her air grapple with an iceblock is usually instant death as well. Watch for those opportunities, they feel really good.
Delphiki
Smash Champion
One more little (but very useful) thing: ICs can gimp Samus pretty bad, moreso than pretty much any other character.
Ice Blocks **** Samus' recovery. Like what Wobbles is saying, plus if you hit her once while she's bomb jumping, she probably won't make it back if you keep shooting desynched blocks. Then she goes for the grapple and dies.
Ice Blocks **** Samus' recovery. Like what Wobbles is saying, plus if you hit her once while she's bomb jumping, she probably won't make it back if you keep shooting desynched blocks. Then she goes for the grapple and dies.
Drecker
Smash Ace
As usual, Wobbles and Delphiki come through. I didn't bother with half of that junk before.