Pάρί
Smash Apprentice
Hey after looking through some stuff could explain the following matchups for fox
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Thanks
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Thanks
-
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Help me with some Fox matchups
- Thread starter Pάρί
- Start date
I can only tell you so much (I'm a better commentator/analyst than player), but here we go:
Captain Falcon: Take advantage of his limited recovery arc. He basically has to go low and up-b, or up-b and land high, so shine spikes are a viable coverage option for the low recovering falcon, and back-airs are a good option to cover high recovery. When on stage, press your relatively superior range. Due to his low grab-range, shine him when he comes in for a grab->knee (or other aerial combo), and he loses a lot of his combo-ability. Don't let him get close to you, because he is stronger at close range.
Sheik: Up-throw up-air is amazing against Sheik, it kills her easily, it is relatively easy to hit, and obviously kills. You have the aerial superiority, take advantage of it.
Fox: Just be better, haha. In all seriousness though, don't try to out-pace the other Fox. I see a lot of players that try to go in really fast and super aggressively, and they get punished for it. Play patiently, Fox can really punish other Foxes in the ditto because newer players believe that they can be incredibly aggressive for free because "Fox is Fox," but in reality, you can punish super hard. Let the other Fox try to go balls out aggro, and punish him when he overextends.
Falco: I struggle with this match-up myself. The best thing you can do is try to stay somewhat closer to Falco, because his lasers can inhibit your movement, and can block your approaches. Lasers are deceptive though, and Falco players believe that they can do anything for free because of their lasers, so if you shield lasers as the Falco approaches to do an aerial combo, you can grab him as soon as he lands next to you, and punish him.
Also, I see that you're in San Antonio, you should travel to Houston some time and come to some of our tournaments.
Captain Falcon: Take advantage of his limited recovery arc. He basically has to go low and up-b, or up-b and land high, so shine spikes are a viable coverage option for the low recovering falcon, and back-airs are a good option to cover high recovery. When on stage, press your relatively superior range. Due to his low grab-range, shine him when he comes in for a grab->knee (or other aerial combo), and he loses a lot of his combo-ability. Don't let him get close to you, because he is stronger at close range.
Sheik: Up-throw up-air is amazing against Sheik, it kills her easily, it is relatively easy to hit, and obviously kills. You have the aerial superiority, take advantage of it.
Fox: Just be better, haha. In all seriousness though, don't try to out-pace the other Fox. I see a lot of players that try to go in really fast and super aggressively, and they get punished for it. Play patiently, Fox can really punish other Foxes in the ditto because newer players believe that they can be incredibly aggressive for free because "Fox is Fox," but in reality, you can punish super hard. Let the other Fox try to go balls out aggro, and punish him when he overextends.
Falco: I struggle with this match-up myself. The best thing you can do is try to stay somewhat closer to Falco, because his lasers can inhibit your movement, and can block your approaches. Lasers are deceptive though, and Falco players believe that they can do anything for free because of their lasers, so if you shield lasers as the Falco approaches to do an aerial combo, you can grab him as soon as he lands next to you, and punish him.
Also, I see that you're in San Antonio, you should travel to Houston some time and come to some of our tournaments.
MrWeavile
Smash Apprentice
The only one I'd say I know well is Sheik.
She's a defensive character by nature, so any pressure she puts on you won't be until you're by the edge most of the time. She'll be playing the spacing game moreso than most other characters, so if you go in on her, you have to respect her wavedash and space; One mis-spaced nair and it could be a dthrow-death.
Drill>Shine is stupidly good in this matchup. U-throw works with U-air as well as dumb nair combos at around 20% if she DI's out.
The main thing to keep in mind is not to get impatient. You win neutral if you play patient enough with lasers.
She's a defensive character by nature, so any pressure she puts on you won't be until you're by the edge most of the time. She'll be playing the spacing game moreso than most other characters, so if you go in on her, you have to respect her wavedash and space; One mis-spaced nair and it could be a dthrow-death.
Drill>Shine is stupidly good in this matchup. U-throw works with U-air as well as dumb nair combos at around 20% if she DI's out.
The main thing to keep in mind is not to get impatient. You win neutral if you play patient enough with lasers.
bearsfan092
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2012
- Messages
- 402
There are matchup guides in CK's Fox guide that serve as a rough (and kinda incomplete but I don't blame him) guide toward each matchup. As it is, the question is too broad. If you wanna know about the neutrals, punishes, specific situations, most useful moves, general mentalities, or whatever, then I could probably help out.
Pάρί
Smash Apprentice
Alright, what should I be doing in the neutral against Falco. I have trouble with dealing with his lasers
Pάρί
Smash Apprentice
Thanks for the help! And I'll probably come this summer for some Houston tourneys!
20YY SS | Saiblade
Obviously not biased towards Falco
I'll update this list as I go, but here's what I have right now.
Fox: Play patiently, don't be incredibly aggressive. Honestly, the determining factor in this MU is just who the better player is.
Falco: Falco is a tricky match-up, I always do the ditto instead of Fox-Falco. Either way, with his extremely limited recovery, shine spikes are incredibly viable when he recovers low, if he recovers high, punish the up-b with bair, and the side-b with U-smash.
Sheik: As Keebler said, Uthrow Uair is amazing, easy to hit, and low commitment. For Sheik, you can crouch-cancel at lower percents, and punish almost everything with an up-smash. Laser her a lot, and make sure to play aggressively.
C-Falc: Keebler's explanation is on point for recoveries. Against C-Falcon, make sure to take advantage of u-tilt and u-smash, it's pretty broken.
Fox: Play patiently, don't be incredibly aggressive. Honestly, the determining factor in this MU is just who the better player is.
Falco: Falco is a tricky match-up, I always do the ditto instead of Fox-Falco. Either way, with his extremely limited recovery, shine spikes are incredibly viable when he recovers low, if he recovers high, punish the up-b with bair, and the side-b with U-smash.
Sheik: As Keebler said, Uthrow Uair is amazing, easy to hit, and low commitment. For Sheik, you can crouch-cancel at lower percents, and punish almost everything with an up-smash. Laser her a lot, and make sure to play aggressively.
C-Falc: Keebler's explanation is on point for recoveries. Against C-Falcon, make sure to take advantage of u-tilt and u-smash, it's pretty broken.
Pάρί
Smash Apprentice
I have one more matchup to ask about, lol my friend came over last night and we grinded out a bunch of matchs.
He mains Dr.Mario and I found it difficult to play against. What should I be doing against Dr.Mario in the neutral? And how should I be playing against Dr.Mario in general
He mains Dr.Mario and I found it difficult to play against. What should I be doing against Dr.Mario in the neutral? And how should I be playing against Dr.Mario in general
bro you're not gonna have time to punish falco side b with an upsmash everytime. just throw out a quick hitbox. It's more difficult to react to falco side b than fox, but you can cover it with nair, bair, uptlt, ftilt, or downsmash really easily. other moves work, but these tend to be consistent and quick.
1000g2g3g4g800999
Smash Journeyman
Falcon: Nair destroys him, just try not to jump into his own nair or trade with any of his other aerials. Dash out of the way to avoid OoS options as necessary, or utilt. If he starts doing more ground moves, stay out of their range more or usmash OoS (depending on how close you can get). CC first hit of nair->whatever. WD OoS if you ever feel uncomfortable. Usmash attempts to space nair. If he ever attempts to approach with an actual attack, he's pretty much always going to lose to or trade with sh bair, dash dance and good shield game are his ways around it. Overshoot approaches to deal with DD unless he's pivot nairing. Utilt and shine make him have a rotten day. Edgeguard with bair for high recoveries, and don't be afraid to double jump. Grab ledge or fsmash for lower recoveries or ones where he might go on stage or to the ledge. Dsmash at the ledge if his up-b is from below. DJ drill from the ledge if he's below but you're unsure if you can get the shine. His OoS is significantly worse behind, exploit this.
Sheik: Grab or shine her, don't get grabbed. Try to avoid going for uthrow uair at 0. Most Sheik's love ftilt utilt and dsmash, as they should, so punish the first directly out of shield on shield DI in with grounded options or dair towards, make no attempt to punish utilt if the second hit hits your shield, and wavedash in at the end of dsmash->shine, or otherwise bait these out with movement. Avoid needles, don't be too hasty in recovery, most Sheiks prey on that. If possible, DI ftilt out, or at higher percents, SDI ftilt and dtilt up. If you get grabbed, it's better to try to fight your way out. Either try to shine, or some other fast option depending on what Sheik does if she hasn't grabbed you.
If Sheik's roughly at the edge of her dash attack range, and doing what looks like a dash attack at all, feel free to assume it's a dash attack as even if she does a max distance boost grab, it hits later and doesn't go as far (and most Sheiks probably will dash attack anyway for some reason). Punish any rising aerial of any kind OoS.
Sheik has a similar problem with OoS options from behind as Falcon, but is less likely to try to retaliate from behind (though the options that hit there are actually faster). If you're slightly farther behind you can dash forward a little, if close enough dash attack any kind of jump (reserve for higher percents), or keep running/dash back to cover and kind of escape options. For spot dodge (very distinct sound and animation) you can sh drill in place -> shine or grab (do not fast fall). Drill typically trades with or beats all ground options, but some of these trades are unfavorable, and it's unsafe on shield and vulnerable to SDI.
To edgeguard, pay attention to if Sheik has a double jump, and try not to go deep. Vanish isn't invincible until frame 18, so if you don't see her start it yet, and she's in range for it, you should usually be able to rising bair or drop down and shine. If Sheik can sweetspot the ledge from the ascent of Vanish or her doublejump and you are not at the ledge, it is not the time to grab it (from stage or refreshing). In the case of the Vanish, do so a little bit earlier, and for the double jump, even earlier before. Regular get up and get up attack (under 100) are preferable to ledgeroll, and it's more preferable not to have to do either. For higher recoveries, try to intercept Sheik on the way down from a Vanish, not the landing. Try to catch Sheik doing anything before she lands with a bair one of your strong grounded anti-airs. Don't run into Sheik at max range for one of her aerials if she's at the ledge or a platform (or you're on a platform).
Fox: Don't get grabbed or shined. Don't jump into utilt usmash or shine. Try to avoid challenging pressure if it's close, or DI out and usmash. Don't get hit when near the ledge, particularly by shine. Block bair, or DD around it (like any attack really). You can shoot lasers in this mu. Edgeguards will consist of a lot of bair, you can dip low and do rising drill over and over against lower Fire Fox usage. Anything you want to avoid getting caught by, you want to catch the opponent with. Nair is CCable to surprisingly high percents. Illusion from higher heights can generally be caught with a bair. If it's too high for you to comfortably bair, you can wait for it to come down, lag doesn't get lower until heights higher than Yoshi's top platform. If it's closer to the ledge or at, you can hold ledge, waveland on to punish, time a get up attack, or dip lower and come up with a rising bair from the ledge. If onstage, jab, ftilt, utilt, dsmash or usmash are all fast and relatively easy to land (though they may get past certain options, pay attention to height). Shine isn't even too hard to hit, but if you're not confident about positioning or timing for anything, just shield and WD OoS. To beat shorten and no shorten, you can ledgecancel bair->ledgegrab, shine->wavedash back onto ledge, or jab twice. If at ledge height, but not enough to go over, either hold edge, ftilt down, drill, or dsmash. Try to avoid attempting to directly punish crossups on shield, and if you do them yourself, dash dancing should beat bair OoS (pay attention to when you hit and where you land).
Falco: Don't get shined (so watch out for CC), or grabbed, really. To get around lasers, CC them, act out of shield quickly, powershield, use platforms, or hit Falco out of the startup if possible. Get hit by lasers on throws and SDI away from Falco. You're faster than Falco, so if you deal with lasers well, maintaing good spacing isn't too hard. Edgeguarding isn't too different from Fox, but he doesn't have any flames to worry about during Fire Bird, and his recovery moves come out a little faster (and hurt worse if they hit you), and have worse range. Illusion into lasers to gain recovery distance. Uthrow destroys, and shining him near the edge puts him in really, really bad places. Don't challenge the bird when he's above, don't run into utilt or AC bair walls. Utilt is worse as a KO move from him, but combos better. It's generally hard to hit him at lower percents outside of a punish or grab because of CC shine potentially meaning you lose a stock.
Sheik: Grab or shine her, don't get grabbed. Try to avoid going for uthrow uair at 0. Most Sheik's love ftilt utilt and dsmash, as they should, so punish the first directly out of shield on shield DI in with grounded options or dair towards, make no attempt to punish utilt if the second hit hits your shield, and wavedash in at the end of dsmash->shine, or otherwise bait these out with movement. Avoid needles, don't be too hasty in recovery, most Sheiks prey on that. If possible, DI ftilt out, or at higher percents, SDI ftilt and dtilt up. If you get grabbed, it's better to try to fight your way out. Either try to shine, or some other fast option depending on what Sheik does if she hasn't grabbed you.
If Sheik's roughly at the edge of her dash attack range, and doing what looks like a dash attack at all, feel free to assume it's a dash attack as even if she does a max distance boost grab, it hits later and doesn't go as far (and most Sheiks probably will dash attack anyway for some reason). Punish any rising aerial of any kind OoS.
Sheik has a similar problem with OoS options from behind as Falcon, but is less likely to try to retaliate from behind (though the options that hit there are actually faster). If you're slightly farther behind you can dash forward a little, if close enough dash attack any kind of jump (reserve for higher percents), or keep running/dash back to cover and kind of escape options. For spot dodge (very distinct sound and animation) you can sh drill in place -> shine or grab (do not fast fall). Drill typically trades with or beats all ground options, but some of these trades are unfavorable, and it's unsafe on shield and vulnerable to SDI.
To edgeguard, pay attention to if Sheik has a double jump, and try not to go deep. Vanish isn't invincible until frame 18, so if you don't see her start it yet, and she's in range for it, you should usually be able to rising bair or drop down and shine. If Sheik can sweetspot the ledge from the ascent of Vanish or her doublejump and you are not at the ledge, it is not the time to grab it (from stage or refreshing). In the case of the Vanish, do so a little bit earlier, and for the double jump, even earlier before. Regular get up and get up attack (under 100) are preferable to ledgeroll, and it's more preferable not to have to do either. For higher recoveries, try to intercept Sheik on the way down from a Vanish, not the landing. Try to catch Sheik doing anything before she lands with a bair one of your strong grounded anti-airs. Don't run into Sheik at max range for one of her aerials if she's at the ledge or a platform (or you're on a platform).
Fox: Don't get grabbed or shined. Don't jump into utilt usmash or shine. Try to avoid challenging pressure if it's close, or DI out and usmash. Don't get hit when near the ledge, particularly by shine. Block bair, or DD around it (like any attack really). You can shoot lasers in this mu. Edgeguards will consist of a lot of bair, you can dip low and do rising drill over and over against lower Fire Fox usage. Anything you want to avoid getting caught by, you want to catch the opponent with. Nair is CCable to surprisingly high percents. Illusion from higher heights can generally be caught with a bair. If it's too high for you to comfortably bair, you can wait for it to come down, lag doesn't get lower until heights higher than Yoshi's top platform. If it's closer to the ledge or at, you can hold ledge, waveland on to punish, time a get up attack, or dip lower and come up with a rising bair from the ledge. If onstage, jab, ftilt, utilt, dsmash or usmash are all fast and relatively easy to land (though they may get past certain options, pay attention to height). Shine isn't even too hard to hit, but if you're not confident about positioning or timing for anything, just shield and WD OoS. To beat shorten and no shorten, you can ledgecancel bair->ledgegrab, shine->wavedash back onto ledge, or jab twice. If at ledge height, but not enough to go over, either hold edge, ftilt down, drill, or dsmash. Try to avoid attempting to directly punish crossups on shield, and if you do them yourself, dash dancing should beat bair OoS (pay attention to when you hit and where you land).
Falco: Don't get shined (so watch out for CC), or grabbed, really. To get around lasers, CC them, act out of shield quickly, powershield, use platforms, or hit Falco out of the startup if possible. Get hit by lasers on throws and SDI away from Falco. You're faster than Falco, so if you deal with lasers well, maintaing good spacing isn't too hard. Edgeguarding isn't too different from Fox, but he doesn't have any flames to worry about during Fire Bird, and his recovery moves come out a little faster (and hurt worse if they hit you), and have worse range. Illusion into lasers to gain recovery distance. Uthrow destroys, and shining him near the edge puts him in really, really bad places. Don't challenge the bird when he's above, don't run into utilt or AC bair walls. Utilt is worse as a KO move from him, but combos better. It's generally hard to hit him at lower percents outside of a punish or grab because of CC shine potentially meaning you lose a stock.