Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[ILikeJumpin]

People, please...

Alright, for the sake of my sanity I want to say this.

My post is obviously in the defense of Heavy Brawl (HB) but perhaps in a different way.

The point of HB is to attempt to increase the COMPETITIVE longetivity of this game. If M2K and Gimpy play this way at tourneys and are still doing it in 5 years great for the whole of the Smash community because that is how a game gets a great community to stick around.

If you don't like to play HB - I haven't even tried it yet - Then don't but if you are posting "melee 2.o lol go home" then you do not truely grasp the concept. This isn't a push for everyone ever to play HB it is for those of us that want the "combo" aspect of this game to stick around. What game lasts 7 years where TL spams arrows bombs and boomerangs then gets a gimp kill to win the game? A question I believe doesn't require an answer.

The point of this topic was to throw an idea to a little chunk of the Smashing world in an attempt to keep something we all love alive and kicking.

So please rather than bash them state, as Lavis has said, you don't like it just because you don't. The melee 2.0 things are not needed because they are not trying to say that. If increasing this game's life it ends up a little more like its AMAZING predecessor, who cares? It is all for the love of sash, not the love of Melee. Thanks. Time to go test this stuff!

 

[Smilez]

I'm going to try this out. To be honest I was one of the people against the Heavy setting. But after playing for a while now I don't see much future in the game as it stands. Even when winning I find it extremely boring at times. I myself have camped as it turns out to be the most effective tactic for a lot of characters. Which I feel is just horrible. So like I said I will give it a try b/c I don't see many other choices.

 

[DRaGZ]

This board will no longer let me edit or use the quote button...so I'm going to have the continue my responses in a double-post. Sorry.

PXG: I think it'll beinevitable with the people you play as well as soon as someone figures out that camping is very effective and starts doing it. Then eeeeeveryone starts doing it.


almightypancake: I'm going to sort out my list of things I found in Heavy Brawl into a list of pros and cons, if smashboards will let me FRIGGIN' EDIT MY POSTS. >_> Sorry...


I R Hungry: I'm going to try videos of Heavy Brawl matches I've seen before, but I don't have any way of actually setting up a video capture system. Could anyone else try doing this?

Alternatively, you could just try it for yourself. We're not discussing combos, just a different mode, which is easily experiment-friendly at home.


JugaBro: Thank you for making that list. I'm going to put that in the OP.


DrAwesome: To be honest, I am hoping Heavy Brawl is unncessary. But at this point I'm not sure of why it's not better than regular Brawl and why regular Brawl is going to improve.


The wrath of Koarin: Again, for (what is it?) the seventh time, we don't want Melee. We want smash back. Just to deter posts like that again, I'm going to put an explanation in the OP.


TeenLink2D: A LOT of people complained when they went from Smash64 to Melee (I wasn't there, so I can't give personal experience on this). But it was adaptable, and has prospered, because one specific strategy was not the dominant strategy.

Also, you're wrong about the progression. Smash64 was EXTREMELY offensive heavy (it was possible for one hit to lead into a KO-combo from the get-go). Melee was very Offensive-Defensive balanced, it just happened to be like that so everything is hunky-dory. Regular Brawl, unfortunately, favors the defensive, which leads to long, drawn-out, and boring matches. Heavy Brawl seems to return this balance somewhat.


Thino: We've already had tournaments. All the pros are saying the same thing: this game sucks because it's too defensive. There is no depth because of this and it's boring. The Pink Reaperr tells me that crews are actually contemplating quitting Smash altogether because it just isn't worth it anymore. That's saddening.


And to anyone I didn't get to...

Try it before you knock it, eh? Play it for a good two-three hours. You'll be surprised how much more fun it is and how much stronger your approaches against campers are.

 

[Smilez]

I played it. I have have to say its lovely. 10x better than standard Brawl. I'm going to tell all my friends to start playing on this setting. Much more fun.

 

[Papapaint]

Wow, I just re-read the first post. It's well-organized, and I would honestly like to hear legitimate opposition to it.

Also, I really really want to point out that it makes no sense to say "Keep playing regular Brawl, something will surface!" This has surfaced. This increases the viability of the game on the competitive scene. Why work incredibly hard searching for some imaginary technique when this does the same thing?

Now then, after even more testing, I'm starting to come to some interesting opinions. Yes, Sakurai wanted the game to be fun for everyone, even the losers... but I can't help but wonder why heavy brawl feels the way it does. Without increasing game speed, the game feels faster. As I said, a lot of the new Brawl techniques--footstool jumping, multiple dodges, diminishing knockback, etc.--are made far more advanced and interesting and effective with this change. I know we all think Sakurai has pissed on the competitive players... but adding in a competitive setting of the game would be just like him. He lovez his mindgamez.

My point is, we don't know how the game was "meant to be played." My theory is that it was meant to be played in such a way that what people play feels like the best option to them. So far, a lot of competitive smashers have felt that this is the best option. Why avoid it? For all we know, this mode may have been created solely to aid competitive players.

 

[DRaGZ]

This is what's going to happen if we stick with regular Brawl:

Gimpyfish: http://smashboards.com/showthread.ph...t=high+gravity

I'm also not the only one to have supported this (and most certainly not the first to have thought of it). Here are some topics from the past that also support this idea, all of which, unfortunately, was met with much vilification without impartial thought:

SGX: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141682
WIGI: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154387
Solid Moose: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151300
Dark-Pikachu-0: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148336
SheerMadness (I owe you an apology...): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142339
CHUK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141935

In the thread with SheerMadness, I act like an embarassing idiot.

Also, two videos that show off Heavy Brawl in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iomUOudEybs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8OCFl6EILs

Wow, I just re-read the first post. It's well-organized, and I would honestly like to hear legitimate opposition to it.

Also, I really really want to point out that it makes no sense to say "Keep playing regular Brawl, something will surface!" This has surfaced. This increases the viability of the game on the competitive scene. Why work incredibly hard searching for some imaginary technique when this does the same thing?

Now then, after even more testing, I'm starting to come to some interesting opinions. Yes, Sakurai wanted the game to be fun for everyone, even the losers... but I can't help but wonder why heavy brawl feels the way it does. Without increasing game speed, the game feels faster. As I said, a lot of the new Brawl techniques--footstool jumping, multiple dodges, diminishing knockback, etc.--are made far more advanced and interesting and effective with this change. I know we all think Sakurai has pissed on the competitive players... but adding in a competitive setting of the game would be just like him. He lovez his mindgamez.

My point is, we don't know how the game was "meant to be played." My theory is that it was meant to be played in such a way that what people play feels like the best option to them. So far, a lot of competitive smashers have felt that this is the best option. Why avoid it? For all we know, this mode may have been created solely to aid competitive players.

That's an interesting perspective. It's obvious that there was some influence of the competitive community on this game, what with the levels that were basically designed to be neutral along with the fairly specific buffs and nerfs to characters...

I still don't think Sakurai meant for it to be competitive. Maybe he snuck in Heavy Brawl as a way for the competitive community to continue with the game; God knows I wouldn't put something like that past him, and God knows he knows that the community is interested enough to look for things like that.

I dunno...whether it was intended to be more competitive or not, Heavy Brawl just plain is more competitive than regular Brawl, much as in the same way that not knowing if Melee was supposed to be competitive or not still resulted with a competitive environment with some tweaks to the gameplay.

 

[Papapaint]

Also, I've seen a few other things pop up...

High speed brawl is a silly idea. THIS is an example of someone wanting to turn the game into melee. It retains everything that detracts from brawl's competitive viability, and makes it twitchier. We're just left with a chaotic mess that will just be a faster campfest once people adjust to the speed.

Also, higher/lower damage brawl doesn't solve the lack of edgegame and many, many other problems. This also does not help.

However, this helps us get around the actual restricting element in the game--the physics.

 

[DRaGZ]

Also, I've seen a few other things pop up...

High speed brawl is a silly idea. THIS is an example of someone wanting to turn the game into melee. It retains everything that detracts from brawl's competitive viability, and makes it twitchier. We're just left with a chaotic mess that will just be a faster campfest once people adjust to the speed.

Also, higher/lower damage brawl doesn't solve the lack of edgegame and many, many other problems. This also does not help.

However, this helps us get around the actual restricting element in the game--the physics.

Yeah, High Speed just sorta leaves me reeling, I don't really have time to plan an approach as I'm doing it because I have already done it. >_> I dunno, that could just be me thinking too slowly.

Lower damage Brawl only makes games last longer. High damage Brawl just makes people fly away faster, but there still is no edgegame because approaches themselves haven't changed, like almightypancake has said.

Heavy Brawl is, perhaps, the most unique out of all of these modes because it makes the entire physics system feel quicker by modifying, I believe, one thing, falling acceleration. It's a beautiful thing really, and it's made my copy of Brawl look 10x as appealing to me.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I must say that Heavy Brawl definitely feels like it has several times the potential of normal Brawl, but I'm just being redundant.

I have nothing to add tothe current discussion, really.

Also, random bit of info: Sonic's recovery in Light Brawl is second only to Wario's fully charged fart, but "teh fawrt" KO's him in the process.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Heavy brawl is far superior!!! I might actually start playing Brawl again. Thanks to everyone here for all their hard work and ideas.

If only I knew any decent smashers around me... opponents are hard to find post college!

 

[orintemple]

I am going to try this tomorrow. For some reason playing Brawl on a special setting as the norm leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I am not going to count it out just yet. This could be good although I am having trouble shaking this bad taste. Anyone got any words of wisdom to make me think otherwise.

 

[Papapaint]

I am going to try this tomorrow. For some reason playing Brawl on a special setting as the norm leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I am not going to count it out just yet. This could be good although I am having trouble shaking this bad taste. Anyone got any words of wisdom to make me think otherwise.

Yep.

When you think about it, it's no more ridiculous than turning off items and banning stages. Those actions are done for the sake of fair competition.

 

[~rh]

Just tried it, feels really nice. I like it a lot, but it feels so awkward to not play with the normal settings...

 

[PXTalon2000]

Heavy vs. Fast Brawl

PXG: I think it'll beinevitable with the people you play as well as soon as someone figures out that camping is very effective and starts doing it. Then eeeeeveryone starts doing it.
[/B]

.. that's all? You... Didn't play Fast Brawl very much, did you? The camping is no more effective than it was in Melee -- it's decent. It's Ok, but you can get through it, even with someone like Bowser. You do it the same way you get through camping in SSBM -- mindgames.. the kind you can only play when your game isn't slow.

Alright, I don't like Heavy Brawl (as much as I like fast brawl), because it's slow and a few of my favorite characters suffer from this mode. Maybe you play Falco or Wolf or something, but I like to use every character in the game.

Do you know how great it is that Bowser can autocancel his Fair and land with no lag? Have you played as Bowser in Heavy Mode? Because he's completely useless. In fast mode he's a friggin' monster (but basically every character feels broken when you're doing a good job using them).

Look, Heavy Brawl was pretty in that suddenly my Falco had downthrow combos that still took a million years to do. But it's just not as good. And I did try it for a while, yes, but I'm terribly addicted to fast mode because I loved Melee. And, well... You will be too... Once you play fast mode for a while...

Everyone in this thread... If you liked Melee, consider converting to Fast Brawl... It is much more fun.

 

[DRaGZ]

.. that's all? You... Didn't play Fast Brawl very much, did you? The camping is no more effective than it was in Melee -- it's decent. It's Ok, but you can get through it, even with someone like Bowser. You do it the same way you get through camping in SSBM -- mindgames.. the kind you can only play when your game isn't slow.

Alright, I don't like Heavy Brawl (as much as I like fast brawl), because it's slow and a few of my favorite characters suffer from this mode. Maybe you play Falco or Wolf or something, but I like to use every character in the game.

Do you know how great it is that Bowser can autocancel his Fair and land with no lag? Have you played as Bowser in Heavy Mode? Because he's completely useless. In fast mode he's a friggin' monster (but basically every character feels broken when you're doing a good job using them).

Look, Heavy Brawl was pretty in that suddenly my Falco had downthrow combos that still took a million years to do. But it's just not as good. And I did try it for a while, yes, but I'm terribly addicted to fast mode because I loved Melee. And, well... You will be too... Once you play fast mode for a while...

Everyone in this thread... If you liked Melee, consider converting to Fast Brawl... It is much more fun.

I make it a point when I sit down to play Brawl to play every character at least once (except Peach, because I hate her, and Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong because I hate monkeys in rl, and truthfully not always MetaKnight and Pit...).

I took the time to sit down and play Fast Mode for about an hour. I like it, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problems of Brawl that lies in the physics. Sure, it takes more training, but camping will still become a prevalent problem because the very physics that allowed camping to exist...still exist! They don't go away because the game is faster. If anything, people have less time to respond to projectiles because everything's moving faster, so camping gets a buff.

And we're not trying to change Brawl into Melee. I can't believe how many times I have to say that.

And yes, I have played as Bowser in Heavy Mode. He's a wrecking machine of destruction, but one false move and he gets greatly punished.

I can appreciate why you like Fast Mode, but it doesn't fix the problems apparent in regular Brawl because the problems in regular Brawl exist in the physics of the game. Fast Mode doesn't modify these physics, so even though players move faster there will eventually be the resorting to the same tactics. I can still spam my airdodge to high-heaven and not get hit, sidestep over and over while an opponent tries to approach, spam projectiles to keep my opponent back, camp the ledge and hope for an opponent to approach so I can capitalize.

Heavy Mode, however, makes the physics different, thus a missed technique, failed approach, or faulty defense actually results in punishment. There's a reward-punishment system that emerges in this mode based on strategy and technical skill.

 

[channlsrfr]

I've read this entire thread, and I'm glad to see that people (judging from the last few pages) seem to be understanding your intentions better, Dragz.

I've played Brawl at friends' places, and before I read this, I had no intention of ever buying Brawl. I'm a competitive Melee player and love Smash, but I simply have no interest in fighting games that discourage combos and are, frankly, more boring than their predecessors.

Heavy Brawl sounds like it gives this game a chance. It's not about making Brawl into Melee; it's about helping to ensure that people are still playing Smash at all a year from now. Better Heavy Brawl than no Brawl, which is what you risk when leaving this game unmodified.

 

[PXTalon2000]

I make it a point when I sit down to play Brawl to play every character at least once (except Peach, because I hate her, and Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong because I hate monkeys in rl, and truthfully not always MetaKnight and Pit...).

I took the time to sit down and play Fast Mode for about an hour. I like it, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problems of Brawl that lies in the physics. Sure, it takes more training, but camping will still become a prevalent problem because the very physics that allowed camping to exist...still exist! They don't go away because the game is faster. If anything, people have less time to respond to projectiles because everything's moving faster, so camping gets a buff.

And we're not trying to change Brawl into Melee. I can't believe how many times I have to say that.

And yes, I have played as Bowser in Heavy Mode. He's a wrecking machine of destruction, but one false move and he gets greatly punished.

I can appreciate why you like Fast Mode, but it doesn't fix the problems apparent in regular Brawl because the problems in regular Brawl exist in the physics of the game. Fast Mode doesn't modify these physics, so even though players move faster there will eventually be the resorting to the same tactics. I can still spam my airdodge to high-heaven and not get hit, sidestep over and over while an opponent tries to approach, spam projectiles to keep my opponent back, camp the ledge and hope for an opponent to approach so I can capitalize.

Heavy Mode, however, makes the physics different, thus a missed technique, failed approach, or faulty defense actually results in punishment. There's a reward-punishment system that emerges in this mode based on strategy and technical skill.

And your friends can't do anything about it? õ.o

Either I'm not very good at camping or your friends didn't get comfy enough with fast mode to get good at anti-camping. (or you're just assuming the same techniques work as well because you believe their effectiveness is solely attributed to flaws in the physics) What I can say completely for certain is that the added speed helps somebody dodging projectiles to do it. It's because jumping is a viable option. You can't react to Pit's arrows, but they become only about as annoying as Falco's standing B in SSBM.

I understand that in Heavy Brawl you have so much... time to react and that added mobility lets certain characters dodge and punish things. I bring up SSBM because that's not how we dealt with camping in SSBM.

The way I got around camping in SSBM didn't rely so much on the physics as it did on the speed. I could powershield, but that didn't work so much with G&W, DK or Bowser.

When people sidestepped approaches in Melee, players used moves which punished sidesteps (Marth's nair, Pika/Bowser's downsmash), or used the same moves but timed to hit at the end of the sidestep. They landed right inside the person and grabbed them.. Every character has techniques available for this. Peach had a great airdodge in Melee.. People who played against Peach learned how to wait and mindgame around it. Same sort of thing with shielding.. After you played a character a thousand times you also learned how to catch/hit projectiles like you never thought possible. Turtles got rushed down and outmindgamed, but there was certainly the potential in the physics for certain characters to camp perfectly -- some people could almost do it. But generally the way we dealt with it was by mixing it up when we finally got inside (which is mostly impossible in normal brawl when you can see every attack coming a mile away).

What I think really helps with projectiles is when maneuvers like dodges and jumps do not leave you too open. In ordinary brawl a camper can wait for you to be in a bad position and just perfectly capitalize because you'll be in the air for the next five years and follow some predictable trajectory. As I see it, both Fast Brawl and Heavy Brawl are sufficient ways to deal with this.

Another question -- with whom did you play Fast Mode? You won't love it until you have an intense match with a friend. It's one thing to get adjusted to the pace, but it's completely different to see what difference it makes against humans.. all the new things you can do..

Most characters have an attack that can be completely autocanceled if you start it early enough in a shorthop -- it helps with combos and just.. not having any lag is very nice.. a lot of characters lose this ability in Heavy Brawl.

I'll learn how to spam these techniques and see if anyone I know can get around it.

It's not clear if either of us is correct on the camping issue, since it's basically theory at this point. I think it should be both our hopes that camping is not a dominant strategy in Fast Brawl, because I have to say it over and over.. This game is really fun when it's fast (like I said, my roommate and I can't stand going back to normal speed and he's played way more than I have). All the characters are so good they feel broken.

 

[DRaGZ]

And your friends can't do anything about it? õ.o

Either I'm not very good at camping or your friends didn't get comfy enough with fast mode to get good at anti-camping. (or you're just assuming the same techniques work as well because you believe their effectiveness is solely attributed to flaws in the physics)

I understand that in Heavy Brawl you have so much... time to react and that added mobility lets certain characters dodge and punish things. I bring up SSBM because that's not how we dealt with camping in SSBM.

The way I got around camping in SSBM didn't rely so much on the physics as it did on the speed. I could powershield, but that didn't work so much with G&W, DK or Bowser.

When people sidestepped approaches in Melee, players used moves which punished sidesteps (Marth's nair, Pika/Bowser's downsmash), or used the same moves but timed to hit at the end of the sidestep. They landed right inside the person and grabbed them.. Every character has techniques available for this. Peach had a great airdodge in Melee.. People who played against Peach learned how to wait and mindgame around it. Same sort of thing with shielding.. Turtles got rushed down and outmindgamed, but there was certainly the potential in the physics for certain characters to camp perfectly -- some people could almost do it.

I'll learn how to spam these techniques and see if anyone I know can get around it.

Another question -- with whom did you play Fast Mode? You won't love it until you have an intense match with a friend. It's one thing to get adjusted to the pace, but it's completely different to see what difference it makes against humans.. all the new things you can do..

Most characters have an attack that can be completely autocanceled if you start it early enough in a shorthop -- it helps with combos and just.. not having any lag is very nice.. a lot of characters lose this ability in Heavy Brawl.

It's not clear if either of us is correct on the camping issue, since it's basically theory at this point. I think it should be both our hopes that camping is not a dominant strategy in Fast Brawl, because I have to say it over and over.. This game is really fun when it's fast. All the characters are so good they feel broken.

Camping being a prevalent strategy is not a theory. It's already happened in at least one tournament which has its results posted on YouTube.

I played fast mode with friends, who else would I play with? The computer?

You're also talking about Melee a lot. Brawl doesn't work like Melee. Defensive options are huge in this game. Powershielding is very easy and extremely effective. Even if you don't powershield, a regular shield has extremely little stun (although knockback does occur). You can sidestep much more quickly in succession now. Multiple airdodging is whole 'nother bucket of options (for both approaching and camping).

The problem now emerges: approaching in Fast Mode does not fix this because the defender can use these same options just as fast as the attacker can use his options. Inherently, after everyone has adapted to the speed, the same problems will occur.

Heavy Brawl, however, doesn't increase the speed of the defending options but it inherently increases the speed of the approaching options because the fast falling speeds allows the shorthopped approach to be done far more quickly. The defender remains the same speed but the approacher, still with the same options, is now faster. At the same time, the higher gravity forces opponents to stay near the floor more often, which causes more "slammed onto the floor" animations which acts like a kind of hitstun which opens up for combos and a punishment game.

In response to the auto-cancel thing, in Heavy Mode you can autocancel with full jumps, which look similar to short-hops in regular Brawl because of the rate of falling in Heavy Brawl. I think I've autocancel with Ganondorf often with his nair and u-air (I'm actually not 100% sure on this, I have to check). It's not as good as shorthopping, but most of these moves are really powerful anyway and tend to outprioritize nearly anything.

 

[Supax]

The videos give me good evidence to believe that it is much faster paced.. But with players like D3, Jigglypuff, and probably the most used character, Pit.. I don't see how this could work. I'll try it out with some of the floaty characters and see how it works before I make any real decisions though.

Edit: From a TL perspective, I have a couple of questions...

Is this so game altering that it makes TL weak against nearly every character that he was strong against before? Does this eliminate camping/spamming projectiles completely, and make them much less consistent, or does it merely make them more skill-based? And does it eliminate the little aerial combos that are made possible by the original creation of the game, or does it make them greater because of the gravity?

And finally, does it effect actual recovery of some characters besides the floaty ones? For example, say I'm TL, and I throw a boomerang before I recover in a standard game. Will these new settings force me to fall to fast or force my up-b to be less effecient after the boomerang forcing me to fall?

 

[DRaGZ]

The videos give me good evidence to believe that it is much faster paced.. But with players like D3, Jigglypuff, and probably the most used character, Pit.. I don't see how this could work. I'll try it out with some of the floaty characters and see how it works before I make any real decisions though.

Pit's overall strategy has barely changed. His floaty jumps are somewhat hindered, but he's still very beastly (he is a very good combo machine now).

King DeDeDe now has some of the scariest approaches in Heavy Brawl, and his floating u-air/d-air approaches and combos are very strong. Plus, his Up+B is now very fast and very strong.

I don't really know much about Jigglypuff since I barely play with her. Her jumps seem almost unaffected. Apparently, she can still nearly make it below Final Destination to the other side without using pounds.

Edit: From a TL perspective, I have a couple of questions...

Is this so game altering that it makes TL weak against nearly every character that he was strong against before? Does this eliminate camping/spamming projectiles completely, and make them much less consistent, or does it merely make them more skill-based? And does it eliminate the little aerial combos that are made possible by the original creation of the game, or does it make them greater because of the gravity?

And finally, does it effect actual recovery of some characters besides the floaty ones? For example, say I'm TL, and I throw a boomerang before I recover in a standard game. Will these new settings force me to fall to fast or force my up-b to be less efficient after the boomerang forcing me to fall?

No, Toon Link is still extreeeemely good.

It does NOT eliminate camping completely. It simply keeps it from being the dominant strategy because now you can successfully approach camping and punish. Camping is only successful now if you have really good spacing control, before all you had to do was keep the opponent away, thus successful pure camping relies on more skill than before (you have to be reeeeally good at running away, lol).

The only real problem I've seen with recovery is Sonic's Up+B. Everyone else's recovery is pretty okay. Here's the post that compares normal Brawl and Heavy Brawl jumping heights:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4225629&postcount=196

EDIT: I just got what you meant about Toon Link, sorry. No, Toon Link will not fast fall after catching his boomerang and his recovery is still fantastic. I go off-screen below the screen on Final Destination really often and still survive as Toon Link.

 

[Supax]

There are too many pros and not enough cons to not atleast TRY this. So I will probably test it out with some of my friends and see what I think about it. From what I see it speeds up the game A LOT, and that can completely change the game around. I think it's a good way to alter settings, without completely changing around the damage and speed etc. like I've seen done before. It is just one small change that could develop a huge difference between competitive and casual play. I have to test it out before I get my hopes up though, as it IS still changing settings. I don't disagree with changing settings as long as it is for the better of the competitive aspect of a game.

 

[LavisFiend]

I just went ahead and tried it a day or two ago, then I tried it again, and my decision still stands. I just do not like the mode.

However, feel free to keep testing it all you want. It just didn't captivate me as much as it has you DRaGZ.

 

[DRaGZ]

I just went ahead and tried it a day or two ago, then I tried it again, and my decision still stands. I just do not like the mode.

However, feel free to keep testing it all you want. It just didn't captivate me as much as it has you DRaGZ.

I understand dude. Thanks for at least trying it out, I really appreciate that.

 

[LavisFiend]

I understand dude. Thanks for at least trying it out, I really appreciate that.

No problem. It really isn't a bad mode, it is just a preference thing for me. You were right about the nerfs though; they really were not as bad as people made them out to be, still THERE of course, but really, you are going so fast it really dosen't show through most of the time.

 

[Hydde]

is say is too much of a problem to re adjust the whole gameplay with this mode. Just play the game as it is....

if brawl dies out in a year or so, well go back to melee.
The game is like it is , sakurai wanted it to be that way. if his experiment doesnt work, we cant do a thing to solve it. We have to just accept the fact that brawl is less competitive than melee and will never be like melee.

Enjoy it or leave it.... or well, wait for smash 4

 

[clace]

Ok, Im sick and tired of people with their stupid masses of identical posts of 'THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0 KBLARGEN MUFFIN CAKES' We know it's not! We're not blind! But that doesn't change the fact THAT THE GAME HAS LESS POTENTIAL IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE! All the OP is trying to do is to inform that maybe if we made that mode the standard, the competitive scene WOULD BUILD itself up again.

Right now, brawl is a campfest. Do you really support that? Wouldn't you much rather have high octane jumping around like a schizophrenic monkey with it's *** on fire? Wouldn't that be more FUN than just standing there throwing your boomerang repeatedly giggling a bit each time?

Stop randomly attacking good ideas for the sake of being angry and moaning!

 

[Kye L]

I tried Heavy Brawl, and...it was cool to see fastfalling making a difference, and Ike for some reason recovering from his Fair fast as hell...but more than anything else, it made me realize just how little these discussions about the competetive scene should matter to me because by the end of it I was thinking "that didn't feel so different".

But I'm going to butt in anyways. Unless the mode is making some characters unplayable, then there is no reason not to use it. It's just another game mode - before it didn't benefit us (well, you), but things changed and now it does, so why should you not use it just because "that's trying to change the game"? If that wasn't acceptable, then we would only be playing 2 minute matches with all items on.

So I have to ask...is the mode making any character unplayable? >_>;;

 

[Hydde]

Ok, Im sick and tired of people with their stupid masses of identical posts of 'THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0 KBLARGEN MUFFIN CAKES' We know it's not! We're not blind! But that doesn't change the fact THAT THE GAME HAS LESS POTENTIAL IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE! All the OP is trying to do is to inform that maybe if we made that mode the standard, the competitive scene WOULD BUILD itself up again.

Right now, brawl is a campfest. Do you really support that? Wouldn't you much rather have high octane jumping around like a schizophrenic monkey with it's *** on fire? Wouldn't that be more FUN than just standing there throwing your boomerang repeatedly giggling a bit each time?

Stop randomly attacking good ideas for the sake of being angry and moaning!

why? i have melee which does much better than Brawl at that.

IM not attacking anyone. Its a fine idea, i have played it and i liked it in some way, but some things just turn out bizarre, which is why i dont think it must be a rule to use this in tournies.

Brawls nature is to be campy, and it doenst matter what u say, nothing will change that. Not that im happy with it but im being realistic here. IMplementing this mode forcefully in tournies is just straining too much the issue.

Dont fool urself. Brawl is not and will not be as competitive as melee. Is sad i know but at least try to enjoy the game as it is.

What is done is done and nothing will change that. Not even all of your frustations.

 

[Kye L]

If Brawl's nature is to be campy, then using a mode that lessens the impact of that inherent flaw seems like a pretty good idea. It may not make Brawl as or more competetive than Melee, but it'll make Brawl more competetive...period. Right?

 

[Papapaint]

why? i have melee which does much better than Brawl at that.

IM not attacking anyone. Its a fine idea, i have played it and i liked it in some way, but some things just turn out bizarre, which is why i dont think it must be a rule to use this in tournies.

Brawls nature is to be campy, and it doenst matter what u say, nothing will change that. Not that im happy with it but im being realistic here. IMplementing this mode forcefully in tournies is just straining too much the issue.

Dont fool urself. Brawl is not and will not be as competitive as melee. Is sad i know but at least try to enjoy the game as it is.

What is done is done and nothing will change that. Not even all of your frustations.

Imagine if we'd had this attitude when melee--hell, when smash itself--came out.

The game CAN change, and it's up to us to make it competitive. People don't seem to understand that we made bigger steps that this to get to where we even are now. Making 1v1s the standard? Turning off ITEMS? Turning off some STAGES??

This is just another step in that process.

 

[Yoshistar64]

I'm just here to say this.

A game can be played however it wants by the player. So stop telling any of Heavy Brawl supporters to return to Melee because Brawl isn't "Melee 2.0." With that being said, we DO have the potential to make this game more competitive. We DO have the potential to make this game less boring in the competitive sense. We DO have a right to change this game to our liking. Oh, but we aren't changing the game, right? We're simply just implementing one of it's modes to change the way we play.

And there is another benefit of Heavy Brawl. There would be more of a reason to drive or walk to tournaments. This is stuff you can't do online. At these tournaments, you'll find new people you can challenge personally, and I don't even have to go on. It'll almost be like Melee tournaments.

 

[DRaGZ]

is say is too much of a problem to re adjust the whole gameplay with this mode. Just play the game as it is....

if brawl dies out in a year or so, well go back to melee.
The game is like it is , sakurai wanted it to be that way. if his experiment doesnt work, we cant do a thing to solve it. We have to just accept the fact that brawl is less competitive than melee and will never be like melee.

Enjoy it or leave it.... or well, wait for smash 4

This attitude makes me sad.

why? i have melee which does much better than Brawl at that.

IM not attacking anyone. Its a fine idea, i have played it and i liked it in some way, but some things just turn out bizarre, which is why i dont think it must be a rule to use this in tournies.

Brawls nature is to be campy, and it doenst matter what u say, nothing will change that. Not that im happy with it but im being realistic here. IMplementing this mode forcefully in tournies is just straining too much the issue.

Dont fool urself. Brawl is not and will not be as competitive as melee. Is sad i know but at least try to enjoy the game as it is.

What is done is done and nothing will change that. Not even all of your frustations.

This mode makes it uncampy. The nature of Heavy Brawl is to not be campy. >_>

And I know that in all likelihood it won't be as competitive as Melee. But I think, with this mode, there is a likelihood that it can be very competitive on its own merits.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "some things turn out bizarre"...

I'm just here to say this.

A game can be played however it wants by the player. So stop telling any of Heavy Brawl supporters to return to Melee because Brawl isn't "Melee 2.0." With that being said, we DO have the potential to make this game more competitive. We DO have the potential to make this game less boring in the competitive sense. We DO have a right to change this game to our liking. Oh, but we aren't changing the game, right? We're simply just implementing one of it's modes to change the way we play.

And there is another benefit of Heavy Brawl. There would be more of a reason to drive or walk to tournaments. This is stuff you can't do online. At these tournaments, you'll find new people you can challenge personally, and I don't even have to go on. It'll almost be like Melee tournaments.

That's what I'm sayin'! The first part anyway. The second part is just more icing, I think.

 

[Yoshistar64]

That's what I'm sayin'! The first part anyway. The second part is just more icing, I think.

Yip. I just felt that I wanted to add the tournament part because I like going to tournaments. Well, Melee tournaments.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

So how badly does it affect characters? I heard Sonic and Toon Link's up bs are heavily nerfed and are barely viable recovery now. Is Game and Watch similarly affected?

 

[DRaGZ]

Sonic's Up+B is hampered. Toon Link's is NOT. This was a bad observation on my part (you can be off the bottom of the screen in Final Destination and still make it back if you still have your second jump).

I totally forgot what Game and Watch's recovery was like...but I'll have to test it after I get back from work.

In the meantime, you can either try it out for yourself or read the list of normal Brawl jumps compared to Heavy Brawl jumps composed by jugabro:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4225629&postcount=196

According to the list, Game and Watch looks fine.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

Game and Watch's is the trampoline jump.

Now that there is no way they can complete their animation on short hopped aerials, is Wolf's fair pretty worthless now? While there is fastfalling, without the l cancel, aren't many aerials still very punishable and therefore, not very useful?

 

[Doomgaze]

I remember promoting this discussion shortly after the JPN version came out and it's amusing (and embarrassing), that we got told off by random-scrub-sakurai-fanboy-newbs to just "wait it out", "this isn't melee 2.0", "go back to melee". And NOW the very same idiots realize all of a sudden that the mechanics are broken? Yes, maybe we should have gone back to melee. I think most pro-brawlers are having a change of heart lately, anyways, so competetively speaking, what is there to hang on to?

To everyone who says Sonic can't get back on the stage in Heavy mode, sorry but you fail. Side+b->up+b seems to work in my games, but who cares? It's not like Sonic is gonna win any tournaments anyway.

As a PS I rather have a functional game in which half of the characters are playable, than the current Brawl where none is. To anyone who disagrees with this: have a smile and a coke and shut the **** up.

Thx
my 2 cents, bye.

 

[WarxePB]

I wholeheartedly support making Heavy Brawl tourney standard. Everyone who has posted in this thread has covered why, so I don't feel the need to reiterate those points.

However, while DRaGZ (and everyone else who is pro-heavy) make some excellent points, I am certain that a few walls-o'-text won't change nearly as many opinions as a tournament held with Heavy Brawl on, Then, players can see how much it affects the game.

For the sake of our future, someone needs to hold a heavy tournament.

 

[Artanisix]

I read most of the posts in this thread, and I have yet to see anyone make a good reply on why the switch should be done considering it gimps the hell out of two characters (Sonic and Wario). While I know nothing on Wario, taking away sonic's one good b move so that the space animals can regain their power is pure BS.

Just a quick reply here. This post is pretty far back but it was bothering me a bit.

Perhaps you should ask yourself a question here. Is it reasonable, for the good of the game's competitive lifespan, that a few characters of a 35~ character roster, be nerfed? If Brawl can be massively improved and lengthened in the competitive scene, is it reasonable that this comes at the cost of certain character viability?

With every action comes a consequence.
With every action comes a consequence.
With every action comes a consequence.

Should we, then, leave Brawl in its current state, which supports defensive gameplay and closes the gap between pro and casual players (thusly resulting in a less interesting game to watch, thusly resulting in less support from places such as EVO or MLG and even smaller tournaments as well*)?

Or do we experiment and try new options in an attempt to raise the skill ceiling, improve the metagame, support character diversity and tactic diversity, and ultimately improve the entertainment value and lifespan of the competitive game itself?

What do we have to lose?



*As for this reasoning, take my experience into account. I do not play competitive smash. I do play competitive StarCraft. A large part of making a great sport is to have a large skill ceiling. Watching people who are much better than us at something is inspiring and entertaining; after all, if we could shine just as well as M2K in Melee, or shoot hoops as well Jordan in his primetime, or dish out mindgames and combos like Daigo in Street Fighter, or pull off that amazing balance of micro and macro at 400 actions per minute like Jaedong in StarCraft, then why would we waste our time watching other people do it? If we don't find something impressive, we won't watch it. And if people don't watch something, that something loses support.



EDIT: Oh, a small note about comparing Street Fighter to Brawl as well. In the case of projectile spamming, SF has a much smaller space available to control than Brawl does. It is easier to enter into a projectile spammer's vulnerable zone. Also take note that many characters have better approach options as well; such as, for example, Ehonda's buttstomp, Blanka's arc ball thing, T.Hawk's air charge, M.Bison's stomp, Vega's wall jumps, Balrog's invincibility on some of his charges... And everyone has a super available to break in.

Whoever made that argument must not have been thinking things all the way through.

 

[cobaltblue]

Just a quick reply here. This post is pretty far back but it was bothering me a bit.

Perhaps you should ask yourself a question here. Is it reasonable, for the good of the game's competitive lifespan, that a few characters of a 35~ character roster, be nerfed? If Brawl can be massively improved and lengthened in the competitive scene, is it reasonable that this comes at the cost of certain character viability?

With every action comes a consequence.
With every action comes a consequence.
With every action comes a consequence.

Should we, then, leave Brawl in its current state, which supports defensive gameplay and closes the gap between pro and casual players (thusly resulting in a less interesting game to watch, thusly resulting in less support from places such as EVO or MLG and even smaller tournaments as well*)?

Or do we experiment and try new options in an attempt to raise the skill ceiling, improve the metagame, support character diversity and tactic diversity, and ultimately improve the entertainment value and lifespan of the competitive game itself?

What do we have to lose?



*As for this reasoning, take my experience into account. I do not play competitive smash. I do play competitive StarCraft. A large part of making a great sport is to have a large skill ceiling. Watching people who are much better than us at something is inspiring and entertaining; after all, if we could shine just as well as M2K in Melee, or shoot hoops as well Jordan in his primetime, or dish out mindgames and combos like Daigo in Street Fighter, or pull off that amazing balance of micro and macro at 400 actions per minute like Jaedong in StarCraft, then why would we waste our time watching other people do it? If we don't find something impressive, we won't watch it. And if people don't watch something, that something loses support.



EDIT: Oh, a small note about comparing Street Fighter to Brawl as well. In the case of projectile spamming, SF has a much smaller space available to control than Brawl does. It is easier to enter into a projectile spammer's vulnerable zone. Also take note that many characters have better approach options as well; such as, for example, Ehonda's buttstomp, Blanka's arc ball thing, T.Hawk's air charge, M.Bison's stomp, Vega's wall jumps, Balrog's invincibility on some of his charges... And everyone has a super available to break in.

Whoever made that argument must not have been thinking things all the way through.

You missed my point, I'm not close minded to this new mode and think it should be "tha insta ban" like some idiots here, hell I tried it soon as I got home. But I simply held concerns for the fact this mode could stand to simply make the old guard strong again and cause a return to old ways of thinking (plus I'm a sonic nut >_>)

However as the other two guys who replied to me said, Sonic, Wario, and the others who get gimped still have potential and the other pros to this mode certianly make it worth while. Plus I realize now that if some pros like lucky start playing this than perhaps sonic and others for that matter might become a force to be reckened with.

Now go save that anger for those "Melee 2.0" tools.