Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[PityLord]

As I already stated this mode needs some mayor testing. Since many people claim that regular mode is inferior from competetive aspect we just HAVE TO look for other options.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

normal mode is fine. stop trying to turn brawl into melee.

i keep hearing people say "we're not turning brawl into melee, we're just making brawl more competitive!"

... and then what happens? "heavy brawl is good because approaches work more like they did in melee! everybody switch over!"

leave brawl alone. if you're not going to help it develop, or even give it TIME to develop, then at least just go away. i played melee for seven years; i'd like something new now.

 

[Papapaint]

normal mode is fine. stop trying to turn brawl into melee.

i keep hearing people say "we're not turning brawl into melee, we're just making brawl more competitive!"

... and then what happens? "heavy brawl is good because approaches work more like they did in melee! everybody switch over!"

leave brawl alone. if you're not going to help it develop, or even give it TIME to develop, then at least just go away. i played melee for seven years; i'd like something new now.

Help it develop by, say, finding methods to make it more competitive?

**** good idea. Wait...






That might be what we're doing. I'm just guessing here.

Anyway--

I have a video with every character's recovery. Only problem is it's 25 **** minutes, which means almost an hour of editing to get it down to size. Does anyone have some terrible desire to see this?

Also, I will go ahead and record a few heavy brawl matches. Those heavy brawl match videos were recorded just after the game came out in Japan.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

recoveries aren't necessary, we'll get all that information from enough matches anyway >_>

 

[JugaBro]

Help it develop by, say, finding methods to make it more competitive?

**** good idea. Wait...






That might be what we're doing. I'm just guessing here.

Anyway--

I have a video with every character's recovery. Only problem is it's 25 **** minutes, which means almost an hour of editing to get it down to size. Does anyone have some terrible desire to see this?

Also, I will go ahead and record a few heavy brawl matches. Those heavy brawl match videos were recorded just after the game came out in Japan.

Yeah, I would like to see those videos. I'm not sure if you can, but if you could, possibly split it into 2 or 3 videos just to fit into the size? Whatever works best. Good idea for recording heavy brawl matches so people new to the idea can see how it functions in a real battle.

 

[JugaBro]

My last giant wall of text went fairly unnoticed, which is fine considering it said so little for being so long. I'm just gonna assume that it was a fairly common knowledge post and we all realize exactly what the inherent implications and repercussions are for standardizing a nonintuitive mode for tournament play. And on top of that, I'm going to assume that proponents of Heavy Brawl believe that the positives will be able to overcome the aforementioned negatives.

On to things that have actual substance, such as the merits of Heavy Brawl.

Let me quickly reclarify my positions: I really do not know what I think of Heavy Brawl, but I will admit that I had an immediately negative reaction when I first read about the idea. I do not claim to have done exhaustive testing in Heavy Brawl, nor do I claim to be a "pro" in Brawl by any means. I have logged significant hours playing Brawl and played Heavy Brawl long enough to get the feel for it (so no, you won't hear me talk about how Jigglypuff's recovery got "trashed" in Heavy Brawl or any other such nonsense).

If the point of changing tournament play to Heavy Brawl instead of regular Brawl is to alleviate problems which impede on competitive play, namely camping, then Heavy Brawl must balance out the benefits of an offensive and defensive playstyle.

Is this true?
(Here I'm going to play a semi-devil's advocate. Since I do not have a stance one way or another, this is really just stuff I'm skeptical of that I want to be clarified)

I still see a defensive playstyle being massively beneficial and giving many advantages over an attacker. Somehow we've related being able to fall faster to eliminating the risk from the approacher. With the still reduced hitstun, nearly nonexistant shield stun, equal landing lag times and generally small pushback when hit in a shield, the defensive player still has many, many options. Essentially, their role is the exact same. The attacker doesn't realistically have any more options, they can just execute a few of those options more quickly (namely, short hopped aerials). However, if they get powershielded (which is no harder to do, the aerial itself does not come out any faster) or if they miss (because the landing lag is the same [or worse] as before) the defender can get a hit in. So how exactly has the risk been taken out of (or lessened) approaching as compared to standard brawl? The floatiness affects the learning curve of the defender, but doesn't appear to me to affect the top echelon of play.

Some may argue that it's not the risk which has been diminished, but the reward which has been augmented. This is true; with a more combo-friendly physics system in which once the attacker lands one hit, they may hope to rack up more damage, there is a greater reward to getting a hit in. However, this is a double-edged sword. If the defensive player gets a hit in, they too will be able to capitalize on the altered physics and land an equally detrimental string of hits. In fact, because as a defensive player you have more options of punishment (grab, jab, and many other attacks while the offensive player is suffering from lag on their attacks while you have almost none from shielding) than an offensive player (let's face it, even in melee there were only so many good moves to approach with. I hear D3's nair provides a good approach in Heavy Brawl, but that does not also mean its his most combo-centric aerial) they will be able to choose their best option to combo out of. Thus, they have more options to maximize their hits.

In practice, I'm not sure how this all holds up. I do not have enough hours of "competitive" or even pseudo-competitive play in Heavy Brawl to be a pro and be perfect at the playstyle. I could easily see it possible for an AT in Heavy Brawl to show up which makes it the best, most fun, engaging, skill-based, and deep game that has ever existed. I could also see super broken tactics for two characters emerging because the game engine was not catered towards Heavy Brawl and thus, there was not the same exhaustive testing and more flaws seeped through.

At this point, I do not think it's really possible to be sure that we're going to be able to overcome the inherent systematic problems that switching something like this would cause.

I'm sorry if a good answer for this was already posted, but I felt like posting my thoughts on this anyway, since it was recent.

True, heavy brawl doesn't get rid of the fact that people can shoot projectiles at you any less effectivly. What it does, though, is allow the attack to give more punishment than previously because of comboing. Of course, you thought of this also, and now say that both people have the equal chance of getting eachother into combos, so where is the disadvantage to camping? Well, truthfully, camping wont realy exist. Projectiles WERE meant to be used, just not in excess an entire battle. One of the facts of camping was that light gravity helped them get away, and be able to camp again. Because of comboing, they can't realy run away because of less flight distance when hit. It doesn't get rid of people using projectiles when far away- it makes it used LESS, and so more like a normal game. they are still used for distance attacks, but not able to be spammed once a player gets close, or run away. You could also say that both players have an equal chance when the attacker gets close, so the whole punishment deal is out of whack. The thing is, though, is that it truely makes the game more fair, because once the battle gets up close and projectiles aren't used, it's all skill based from there. With heavy gravity, you can only blame yourself if you let the enemy get far enough away to be able to spam projectiles again, so projectiles are used correctly, and spamming will exist in the minimum, or not at all.

 

[Aqueus]

I'm sorry if a good answer for this was already posted, but I felt like posting my thoughts on this anyway, since it was recent.

True, heavy brawl doesn't get rid of the fact that people can shoot projectiles at you any less effectivly. What it does, though, is allow the attack to give [one or two more hits as] more punishment than previously because of comboing.

Of course, you thought of this also, and now say that both people have the equal chance of getting each other into combos, so where is the disadvantage to camping? Well, truthfully, camping wont really [be solved by this change] exist. Projectiles WERE meant to be used, just not in excess an entire battle. One of the facts of camping was that light gravity helped them get away, and be able to camp again. (Continue approaching?)

Because of [inherent physics] comboing, they can't really run away because of less flight distance when hit [continue to break out of combos, even in Heavy Brawl;] hitstun is still a huge factor. (As in: not so prevalent as it was in Melee) It doesn't get rid of people using projectiles when far away- it makes it used LESS, and so more like a normal game. they are still used for distance attacks, but not able to be spammed once a player gets close, or run away. You could also say that both players have an equal chance when the attacker gets close [in Standard Brawl], so the whole punishment deal is out of whack. The thing is, though, is that it truly makes the game more fair [for specific characters, and worse for others], because once the battle gets up close and projectiles aren't used (which is a staple of quite a few character's moveset), it's all [Melee-]skill based from there.

With [any gameplay mode] heavy gravity, you can only blame yourself if you let the enemy get far enough away to be able to spam projectiles again, so projectiles are used correctly, and spamming will exist in the minimum, or not at all.. [So use projectiles and be called a camper, approach, and get over the perceived disadvantage.]

Sorry, this was just too easy. >.> As one of my friends says during his Up Taunt: I think I made an enemy.

 

[game_tip]

I'm sorry I still say we give it a year before any changes to be made.
It is too sudden and I'm not all for that melee jazz anyway

 

[Papapaint]

I'm sorry I still say we give it a year before any changes to be made.
It is too sudden and I'm not all for that melee jazz anyway

Goddammit, where's my Marvin picture...

EDIT: Ah-HAH!

Congratulations! Your post has been dealt with previously, and is therefore adding nothing to the discussion! Please refer to the important links in the first post, and also read the first ten or so pages to find clear, well-defined responses to your post. Thanks for trying, and please post again once you've caught up with the rest of us.

Love,
The people who want Brawl to succeed in a competitive environment because we love the game!














Also, I'm uploading some videos of heavy brawl right now. High quality ones.

 

[NeoZ]

Why is there still people saying "stop trying to make brawl into melee"? I guess they didn't even read the first page...
EDIT: almightypancake you beat me to it, and concerning those videos how long does it take to upload them? I've only seen like 3 HighGravity brawl videos(2 of them were against CPUs), so I'm looking forward to it. /end edit

Next time I play Brawl I'll try high gravity, and I can't try it right now, but I guess Samus *****, right?
I mean no landing lag aerials+being able to chain them faster will surely be awesome.

 

[JugaBro]

Sorry, this was just too easy. >.> As one of my friends says during his Up Taunt: I think I made an enemy.

I dont want to be your enemy. =/

I'll restate what I wrote, so it makes more sense. It realy is a problem of mine. For the one or two hits crossout you made on my post- do you believe this because there is still no real hitstun? Also, I was stating the fact you could give more punishment as a lead up for the next paragraph- the guy I was refuting even posted why it doesn't truely give more punishment when coming up to the spammer, because he has an equal chance. If you believe that isn't possible to keep someone in a combo or at least keep the fight close ranged when your in heavy brawl, compared to normal brawl where the knockback is a much further distance, something is wrong. Again, I might have worded it improperly, sorry if this is the case.

In part of my post that you quoted, I see a few words that weren't there, I just checked my origonal post. The part that is still considered my writing in your post, "hitstun is still a huge factor", I'm looking bellow in the post and I dont see that I wrote that, and it must have been supposed to be written by me because you refuted that statement with another. (Mabey the messages below while I'm typing this are messed up, I'll make sure when I finish this post). Also, about breaking out of combos...that realy wasn't the issue as much as the ability to get to the other side of FD in a second or two to spam projectiles again.

The part you refuted about both characters having an equal chance when in upclose combat, I dont see what your saying about that. I thought that you guys were the ones thinking that the ability to get up close and actually be able to be offensive wouldn't realy change since both people could do it equally, the defender could just stop spamming when he got close and "combo" you (or since you dont like that word, punish) just the same as you could to him. I said that made the game fair anyway, because at that point it's up to the actuall skill of the player (minus spamming) to determine a victor, because then the attacker who has no projectiles or way to shield it efficiently (most characters) can actually do whats better with him. The way you refuted me, it seemed you were saying that since some characters are good at using projectiles (I wont call it spamming, since it always isn't) that using them is their only strong point. Tell me a character where projectile long distance attacks are the main focus of their combat, and then I wont mind if they spam (a challenge, I dare you, tell me one). Dont use Snake as an example, he has great close ranged moves.

With your refute on blaming yourself, how can you on a normal gameplay mode? I can imagine in a few situations, but you know that characters can easily DI away from their foe or escape easily in normal brawl. I've done it many times (though not always done by projectile spammers, it's just as easy). It's much harder to escape an opponent and actually get an opportunity to spam again in heavy brawl, which doesn't count shooting an arrow or two, anyone can get those moves in at relativly close range and not get punished, but when 6 arrows are shot before you get close, that type of thing is what i mean for spamming.

I believe that projectiles would be used the right way, instead of spammed, with heavy gravity. My version of "right way" is called not standing in one spot, or trying to get as far away as possible to use their projectiles over, and over, and over, until the enemy is at a high % and Fsmash them. I wasn't intending to say (if you thought so) that using any projectile weapons would get you called a camper. Using them strategicly to win isn't a problem, using them in excess and only them is a problem.

Anyway, a few of your refutes were just cross outs so I had to assume I knew what you thought instead on some points. I wont want these arguments to get into a hatefest, and then just plain flaming. I can imagine a few of you guys would like that, since this is a thread of our idea, and the thread might be closed then, but I wont want to get into any big fights with you guys. We're all on the same board.

 

[Papapaint]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMljvCOZ9WQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jthGTYJycMo

There's also one more, but it's taking for f*cking ever.

Things to note:

Check out the footstool jump in the metaknight video. It actually even caught me by surprise.

Watch how much smoother tech-chasing is. Also, take note of how much easier it is to approach with aerials.

 

[BlackPanther]

It doesn't get rid of people using projectiles when far away- it makes it used LESS, and so more like a normal game.

There's a problem with that? O_o

 

[Adi]

Interesting theory, sucks that it can't be tested online.

 

[JugaBro]

There's a problem with that? O_o

When it involves using projectiles over and over at a distance where the attacker will have no benefit in attacking, then yes there is. Not with projectiles themselves, but in their specific use for camping.

EDIT: I can imagine the next post of the heavy brawl debaters on the hating side, after watching the first vid. This is my refute for the expected:

Note that level 9 CPU's are realy stupid on heavy brawl. Most people will not suicide in those idiotic ways.

 

[Papapaint]

When it involves using projectiles over and over at a distance where the attacker will have no benefit in attacking, then yes there is. Not with projectiles themselves, but in their specific use for camping.

EDIT: I can imagine the next post of the heavy brawl debaters on the hating side, after watching the first vid. This is my refute for the expected:

Note that level 9 CPU's are realy stupid on heavy brawl. Most people will not suicide in those idiotic ways.

I agree with some of your points, but we're getting away from our argument.

To those who are pro-heavy gravity, we need to make sure we create a single solid position and don't start arguing in circles. Our position is very, very simple:

Currently, defensive options far outweigh--both in quantity and quality--offensive options. Heavy brawl changes this.

We can defend this statement with ease, I believe.

 

[Ferith]

Speedy Characters are the ones that will benefit- they're the only ones who could really bridge the distance gap in order to combo. This gives speedy characters an advantage over slow characters (because we haven't seen that one before). This makes slower characters almost unusable in a real competitive setting.

The other way I see this going is it not mattering- it imbalances chracters but pro players will dodge whatever combo comes there way. It's pointless and imbalancing either way, so I still oppose it.

If Brawl is simply built to be unplayable on the competitive level, then there's no point in attempting to change it- what's broken can't always be fixed.

 

[Papapaint]

When it involves using projectiles over and over at a distance where the attacker will have no benefit in attacking, then yes there is. Not with projectiles themselves, but in their specific use for camping.

EDIT: I can imagine the next post of the heavy brawl debaters on the hating side, after watching the first vid. This is my refute for the expected:

Note that level 9 CPU's are realy stupid on heavy brawl. Most people will not suicide in those idiotic ways.

Right.

Plus, it is Boozer. I wasn't even going to upload that video if it weren't for the footstool jump.

 

[Papapaint]

Speedy Characters are the ones that will benefit- they're the only ones who could really bridge the distance gap in order to combo. This gives speedy characters an advantage over slow characters (because we haven't seen that one before). This makes slower characters almost unusable in a real competitive setting.

The other way I see this going is it not mattering- it imbalances chracters but pro players will dodge whatever combo comes there way. It's pointless and imbalancing either way, so I still oppose it.

If Brawl is simply built to be unplayable on the competitive level, then there's no point in attempting to change it- what's broken can't always be fixed.

This argument just doesn't fly.

"Changing it" would be plugging in AR and adjusting hitstun or some other mod. We're using an in-game option. It's turning off items. It's turning off stages.

Faster characters will always have an advantage. They always have. And believe me, the gap between usable and unusable characters (due to speed) is much, much smaller in heavy brawl than it was in melee.

 

[Aqueus]

Holy ****e, that first video is what I'm talking about! Check out 0:55, Bowser dodges while off the ledge and is already off-screen before his dodge animation is finished.

This gimps the aerial fighting game that Brawl appears to be.

Also, can we PLEASE get some real fighting going on in these matches?

I liked the opening of the second video, dthrow->dair->deflector, nice. See that? Three hits, that's not a MEGA-EXTREME combo... I really liked the combo, showed ingenuity.

That's what I'm getting at, though. I think you guys are fooling yourself. Approach in Heavy Brawl is just as difficult as in Standard Brawl, it's the Follow-up that has changed. You have a shorter distance to travel to get back to your opponent: you offer them less breathing room.

Jesus christ I wish you people had started with that idea in mind, instead of this approach crap. Approaches are the same, and offer no sincere penalty, unless your character has a gimped approach to begin with. I can almost get behind this idea now, the idea of less breathing room is nice, but it hearkens back to Melee in a way that is not competitive, it's defaming. If you want the follow-up like I think you do, then you really are just trying to make Melee 2.0. Sure you liked the game, but Brawl has a different skillset required. If it weren't for the crappier recoveries and silly botches that end in a stock lost I'd be able to agree with Heavy Brawl. See my Bowser example above for exclamation and venom; similarly, you died because your multiple jumps failed to get you level with the stage, you went ^B and died under the stage, I think this is telling.

 

[BlackPanther]

The way I see it is: Although this is a nice way to level the playin field, if we have to alter the game settings like goin into a special brawl to make this game more competitive then I don't think it's worth it. Not all games were meant to be played competitively and Sakurai including the fact that all of his Smash games weren't designed that way, but with SSB(Although not huge) and Melee we found things out negating what he said but with Brawl we're talkin about goin into Heavy mode everytime we start the game up to make it a competitive game I think that's lame. If this turns out the be the best option though more power to you =) but I'm just gonna stick with Melee. And if you Brawl nubs attempt to flame me for a post that had no derogatory remarks in it then prepared to feel the force. I made a harmless post so the response should be that way.

 

[Papapaint]

Holy ****e, that first video is what I'm talking about! Check out 0:55, Bowser dodges while off the ledge and is already off-screen before his dodge animation is finished.

This gimps the aerial fighting game that Brawl appears to be.

Also, can we PLEASE get some real fighting going on in these matches?

I liked the opening of the second video, dthrow->dair->deflector, nice. See that? Three hits, that's not a MEGA-EXTREME combo... I really liked the combo, showed ingenuity.

That's what I'm getting at, though. I think you guys are fooling yourself. Approach in Heavy Brawl is just as difficult as in Standard Brawl, it's the Follow-up that has changed. You have a shorter distance to travel to get back to your opponent: you offer them less breathing room.

Jesus christ I wish you people had started with that idea in mind, instead of this approach crap. Approaches are the same, and offer no sincere penalty, unless your character has a gimped approach to begin with. I can almost get behind this idea now, the idea of less breathing room is nice, but it hearkens back to Melee in a way that is not competitive, it's defaming. If you want the follow-up like I think you do, then you really are just trying to make Melee 2.0. Sure you liked the game, but Brawl has a different skillset required. If it weren't for the crappier recoveries and silly botches that end in a stock lost I'd be able to agree with Heavy Brawl. See my Bowser example above for exclamation and venom; similarly, you died because your multiple jumps failed to get you level with the stage, you went ^B and died under the stage, I think this is telling.

What we mean by improved approach is this:

I study falco extensively. I wrote the Falco guide in brawl. I've played falco a whole, whole lot. He's one of my favorite brawl characters.

So believe me when I say that you can see any aerial approach of his from a mile away. There are almost no advantages to approaching with falco's best moves. A friend of mine plays with me, and any time I try to short hop an aerial, he just waits for me to finish, then punishes.

In heavy brawl, I can start the short hop around the same time I'd do a dash attack, shield, or grab. It's a whole new option, and I can choose from 5 awesome aerials, each landing me in a different spot without being visible from a mile away.

This is what we mean by better approach system. It's not super revolutionary, and it doesn't have to be. It just has to balance.

 

[NeoZ]

Every HG video there is is against CPUs, and even if they're level 9 they still suck(even more outside of regular brawl).
Just get someone to play with you so we can see some real fighting.

 

[Papapaint]

The way I see it is: Although this is a nice way to level the playin field, if we have to alter the game settings like goin into a special brawl to make this game more competitive then I don't think it's worth it. Not all games were meant to be played competitively and Sakurai including the fact that all of his Smash games weren't designed that way, but with SSB(Although not huge) and Melee we found things out negating what he said but with Brawl we're talkin about goin into Heavy mode everytime we start the game up to make it a competitive game I think that's lame. If this turns out the be the best option though more power to you =) but I'm just gonna stick with Melee. And if you Brawl nubs attempt to flame me for a post that had no derogatory remarks in it then prepared to feel the force. I made a harmless post so the response should be that way.

This really doesn't work though.

We, as a community, decide what makes this game competitive. Not Sakurai. That might bother some people, but it's the truth.

Going into special brawl to make things more competitive is no farther from the game's design than turning off items and banning stages. It really isn't. We can't just say "This game just isn't competitive, it isn't worth trying crazy modes". This is equivalent to saying "Well, we can't make melee competitive. I just keep getting killed by randomly spawning bomb-ombs."

 

[Papapaint]

Every HG video there is is against CPUs, and even if they're level 9 they still suck(even more outside of regular brawl).
Just get someone to play with you so we can see some real fighting.

Unfortunately, I don't have travel-size porta-smashers.

My car is in the shop, otherwise I'd have my friend Ahoe over here smashing with me.

 

[Papapaint]

Okay, finally.

I think this video best demonstrates Heavy Brawl.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tzJomfJd6rw

Yes, it's still me vs. a computer. Yes, the cpu still suicides like a dip****. But it's still a good example of how you have increased aerial speed control over your character.

This is my first time playing shiek in heavy brawl, and only my third time at all in brawl. Including day 1, when i played every character once. This means that anything even sort of combo-related is strung together on the fly.

 

[BlackPanther]

Yeah you're right but turning off items and changing the physics of the game are two different things. I guess what I'm sayin is that I don't want Brawl to succeed at all lol. I really do enjoy Brawl but to think that my opponent can keep up with me because things that were taken out and things that were modified is ludacris. In Melee you had to work to get to the top in which you don't have to in Brawl and I refuse to camp to attempt to make the games interesting. Gah I'm gonna stop rambling I'm not helpin the thread at all lol.

 

[Aqueus]

What about an empty SH? It sounds like you're using anecdotal evidence here. Sure you've had a bad time with it, try approaching with an empty SH, then grab, he spot-dodges? SH into a NAir, or DAir, you've already closed the gap, approaching the same way every time, or with one of your 'good moves' is of course going to be obvious, this was true in Melee, too.

The important thing that made this almost a non-factor in Melee was what? That's right Wavedashing, or more to the point: spacing. If you were afraid that you'd misstepped, misjudged, or otherwise made the wrong move, you could at least dash back and retaliate if something went awry from there, there is no such option in Brawl, so you have to vary your approach, every tried to SH at the same spot and instead of performing a Standard Attack do a >B? Vary your spacing so you go far enough that you can't be punished or just on the other side of him.

Honestly, I've not seen any good matches of Heavy Brawl with a human vs. a human, but from those that have computers in them I can clearly see that nothing worthwhile has changed. Approach is the same, again, it's the follow-up that's different.

I don't know what else to say, there must be something that you're seeing that I'm not.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

I agree to an extent with BlackPanther. Turning off random exploding crap is all great, but if you have to go as far as changing the PHYSICS of a game to make it"competitive" then maybe you're better off playing something else.

 

[DD151]

Holy ****e, that first video is what I'm talking about! Check out 0:55, Bowser dodges while off the ledge and is already off-screen before his dodge animation is finished.

This gimps the aerial fighting game that Brawl appears to be.

...

If it weren't for the crappier recoveries and silly botches that end in a stock lost I'd be able to agree with Heavy Brawl. See my Bowser example above for exclamation and venom; similarly, you died because your multiple jumps failed to get you level with the stage, you went ^B and died under the stage, I think this is telling.

i'm sure that most of brawl's aerial fighting takes place below the edge.

are crappier recoveries supposed to be a problem? knowing the limits, or even having limits to one's recovery is essential in both recovering and edgeguarding, the latter of which brawl seriously lacks. i don't want to cite melee amid accusations of "melee 2.0," but characters such as falco and mario were never deemed unplayable because they had the poorest recoveries in the game.

 

[Papapaint]

Yeah you're right but turning off items and changing the physics of the game are two different things. I guess what I'm sayin is that I don't want Brawl to succeed at all lol. I really do enjoy Brawl but to think that my opponent can keep up with me because things that were taken out and things that were modified is ludacris. In Melee you had to work to get to the top in which you don't have to in Brawl and I refuse to camp to attempt to make the games interesting. Gah I'm gonna stop rambling I'm not helpin the thread at all lol.

This is something that has been bugging me (and no offense to you).

We are not changing the physics of brawl. We are changing the gravity. There is a difference. Physics is the relation between objects. Brawl is still an entirely new game, doubly so on Heavy Brawl. The physics are still incredibly different, and still dictate the game. But the added gravity simply helps.

Competitive H3 is played at 1.1 damage. Some competitive CS maps will have slightly higher gravity to avoid players from getting to glitchy spots. Some games have altered game speeds and, in some extreme cases, altered physics.

What we're doing is not at all different from what every game faces in the competitive scene--close scrutiny and extensive testing. There's no reason to give up on Brawl yet. It is still early.

Also, something else needs to be said...

We are not "giving up" on standard brawl. We're simply exploring our options. I'm so tired of seeing people post "GIVE IT MORE TIME!" We can either find competitive worth ASAP, or face the likelihood of Brawl failing on the competitive scene--the competitive scene being MLG, Evo, etc. There will always be underground tourneys and the like.

 

[NeoZ]

Unfortunately, I don't have travel-size porta-smashers.

My car is in the shop, otherwise I'd have my friend Ahoe over here smashing with me.

No problem(lol at the porta-smashers), just post the videos when you can, as it would be nice to see matches with some KOs not just SDs.

 

[DD151]

The important thing that made this almost a non-factor in Melee was what? That's right Wavedashing, or more to the point: spacing. If you were afraid that you'd misstepped, misjudged, or otherwise made the wrong move, you could at least dash back and retaliate if something went awry from there, there is no such option in Brawl, so you have to vary your approach, every tried to SH at the same spot and instead of performing a Standard Attack do a >B? Vary your spacing so you go far enough that you can't be punished or just on the other side of him.

Honestly, I've not seen any good matches of Heavy Brawl with a human vs. a human, but from those that have computers in them I can clearly see that nothing worthwhile has changed. Approach is the same, again, it's the follow-up that's different.

the hell? you can't wavedash back in the lag of a wrong move. shorthopping into the correct move was even more important in melee than in brawl, simply because you would get punished more for making a mistake.

you're basing your judgment off vs. CPU matches. CPUs don't camp. CPUs don't play like humans. a human player can't approach a CPU the conventional way.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

This is something that has been bugging me (and no offense to you).

We are not changing the physics of brawl. We are changing the gravity. There is a difference. Physics is the relation between objects. Brawl is still an entirely new game, doubly so on Heavy Brawl. The physics are still incredibly different, and still dictate the game. But the added gravity simply helps.

Competitive H3 is played at 1.1 damage. Some competitive CS maps will have slightly higher gravity to avoid players from getting to glitchy spots. Some games have altered game speeds and, in some extreme cases, altered physics.

What we're doing is not at all different from what every game faces in the competitive scene--close scrutiny and extensive testing. There's no reason to give up on Brawl yet. It is still early.

Also, something else needs to be said...

We are not "giving up" on standard brawl. We're simply exploring our options. I'm so tired of seeing people post "GIVE IT MORE TIME!" We can either find competitive worth ASAP, or face the likelihood of Brawl failing on the competitive scene--the competitive scene being MLG, Evo, etc. There will always be underground tourneys and the like.

Wow. I wasn't aware other games actually had stuff like this.


Also, I seriously doubt anyone though SSB64 had any competitive worth a month, or several, after release.

 

[Aqueus]

i'm sure that most of brawl's aerial fighting takes place below the edge.

are crappier recoveries supposed to be a problem? knowing the limits, or even having limits to one's recovery is essential in both recovering and edgeguarding, the latter of which brawl seriously lacks. i don't want to cite melee amid accusations of "melee 2.0," but characters such as falco and mario were never deemed unplayable because they had the poorest recoveries in the game.

Perhaps they had the worst vesatility in their ^B, but Mario's Cape is nothing to cry about, nor was Falco's Falco Phantasm. They both gave each character good recovery potential, nothing like, say Zelda's, or Samus', but Samus wasn't deemed top of Top Tier because she could recover from virtually any point off the stage.

Yes, the recoveries are really off-the-wall when you look at them through the lens of Melee, Pit can come back from magnifying glass status to the middle of some stages, but if you tap him while his wings are glowing blue it's a long way down. Snake can vertically cover more distance faster than most characters can cross Final Destination, but zap his... uhm... propeller-thing and down he goes. Each of the characters have outlandish recoveries, but several of them that seem ridiculously overpowered have a glaringly obvious Achilles heel.

Switching gears here, but I think the only thing that's going to make this seem like an even remotely logical debate is for one of the pro-Heavy Brawlers to get a camper and show me how his style play is hampered by Heavy Brawl, because I just don't see it. I may be biased, but I can only see the cons.

Combo potential does not rise on the whole. If it does rise, it's not significant, and it's certainly not for every character.

Recoveries become gimped, the notable ones: DDD, and Sonic, though everyone suffers about 1/4 of their height diminishing. (Excepting a few characters, like Jigglypuff, who, for some reason remains largely unchanged.) Characters like Pit, and Kirby with multiple jumps suffer from what I like to call "DDDism", DDD in Standard Brawl barely moves vertically when he performs his jumps, nearly every character who has multiple jumps begins to act like DDD in Heavy Brawl.

 

[Papapaint]

What about an empty SH? It sounds like you're using anecdotal evidence here. Sure you've had a bad time with it, try approaching with an empty SH, then grab, he spot-dodges? SH into a NAir, or DAir, you've already closed the gap, approaching the same way every time, or with one of your 'good moves' is of course going to be obvious, this was true in Melee, too.

Anecdotal evidence is all we have to go on... and we have a lot of it. I mean no offense, but you really should try to get to a few of the more recent brawl tourneys, and you'll see how good players have gotten at simply watching approaches and punishing them. That's because you really, truly, honestly can see them from a mile out due to floatiness. Short hops are slow and predictable.

The important thing that made this almost a non-factor in Melee was what? That's right Wavedashing, or more to the point: spacing. If you were afraid that you'd misstepped, misjudged, or otherwise made the wrong move, you could at least dash back and retaliate if something went awry from there, there is no such option in Brawl, so you have to vary your approach, every tried to SH at the same spot and instead of performing a Standard Attack do a >B? Vary your spacing so you go far enough that you can't be punished or just on the other side of him.

Also, it's important to understand that defensive playing doesn't require a gap. It simply requires not being the attacking player. In good competitive games, the roles switch continuously, because the game is so situational.

Take Melee (only for example, I know, I know, melee 2.0 and all that jazz...). In a melee match, in the situation you described, the attacker misses, and then must turn into the defender immediately. You then have an attacking player and a defending player again, up close, in a matter of half a second. This is because of game balance. In Brawl, however, it really is possible to be the defensive player non-stop, and have an advantage. This is imbalance.

Honestly, I've not seen any good matches of Heavy Brawl with a human vs. a human, but from those that have computers in them I can clearly see that nothing worthwhile has changed. Approach is the same, again, it's the follow-up that's different.

I don't know what else to say, there must be something that you're seeing that I'm not.

I honestly don't know what to say. I think that if you can't see the difference in approach quality, then you simply haven't played enough or watched enough. Like I said, I've analyzed Falco frame-by-frame. I'm not being elitist, I'm simply saying that mathematically and in practice, there is a significant difference.

Also, off topic... check out my falco guide in the falco subforum and tell me what you think.

Also, don't think I'm blowing you off. You make good points, and I'm glad we're really digging into potential problems with heavy brawl. As much as I want to push this and make it successful, I really would hate to be a part of something that turns out to simply cripple the competitive scene further.

 

[Aqueus]

the hell? you can't wavedash back in the lag of a wrong move. shorthopping into the correct move was even more important in melee than in brawl, simply because you would get punished more for making a mistake.

you're basing your judgment off vs. CPU matches. CPUs don't camp. CPUs don't play like humans. a human player can't approach a CPU the conventional way.

I think you misunderstand, excusing the wrong move, if you think you jumped into a problem, like they begin charging an FSmash, or you think they're setting you up for a combo, you could space them out/WD away.


In regards to your second paragraph:

Then why are these videos being put up as some kind of 'evidence' that Heavy Brawl weakens camping so that approach is more balanced? Mind you I don't think the approach is gimped, I don't see this 1:1 ratio hit-for-hit when approaching someone. Maybe I'm looking at a different character, or I think in an unorthodox manner.

This seems to be more and more a problem that I never face (camping) and have no issue with. Approach has never been a problem with me once I settled on maining Lucas.

 

[Papapaint]

Combo potential does not rise on the whole. If it does rise, it's not significant, and it's certainly not for every character.

To be honest, we don't want some godly buffing of combos. But we do want a slight increase in the capability.

A significant change in the combo system would simply throw off the balance in the other direction. All of a sudden, aggressors would be constantly at an advantage--sort of like melee and 64. From what I've seen of heavy brawl, we could be looking at actual gameplay balance... something smash has yet to really have.

Recoveries become gimped, the notable ones: DDD, and Sonic, though everyone suffers about 1/4 of their height diminishing. (Excepting a few characters, like Jigglypuff, who, for some reason remains largely unchanged.) Characters like Pit, and Kirby with multiple jumps suffer from what I like to call "DDDism", DDD in Standard Brawl barely moves vertically when he performs his jumps, nearly every character who has multiple jumps begins to act like DDD in Heavy Brawl.

D3's recovery is godly. He has great horizontal recovery, and a really really fast, strong, vertical recovery. I have video proof of this.

Pit's jumps are nerfed a bit, but seriously... he needed it. Plus (and I just learned this), tapping back and forth on the control stick real fast as you do his up+b makes him rise like a mofo... and he retains a godly recovery in heavy brawl because of this.

Kirby was mostly unaffected. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Again, I do have video evidence.

 

[Papapaint]

I think you misunderstand, excusing the wrong move, if you think you jumped into a problem, like they begin charging an FSmash, or you think they're setting you up for a combo, you could space them out/WD away.


In regards to your second paragraph:

Then why are these videos being put up as some kind of 'evidence' that Heavy Brawl weakens camping so that approach is more balanced? Mind you I don't think the approach is gimped, I don't see this 1:1 ratio hit-for-hit when approaching someone. Maybe I'm looking at a different character, or I think in an unorthodox manner.

This seems to be more and more a problem that I never face (camping) and have no issue with. Approach has never been a problem with me once I settled on maining Lucas.

To be honest, I didn't mean for the videos to show some sort of new anti-camperism. I know I can't do that. They were mainly to show that Brawl retains its unique qualities, and to show what I mean by bringing back the edgegame. It also shows that while characters can still recover, they have limits once again. This is an incredibly essential factor in smash's uniqueness.

Yes, you can gimp some character's recoveries in brawl. But not usually. And not consistently, and returning to the edge is a mostly mindless trip for almost every character.

 

[Aqueus]

To be honest, we don't want some godly buffing of combos. But we do want a slight increase in the capability.

A significant change in the combo system would simply throw off the balance in the other direction. All of a sudden, aggressors would be constantly at an advantage--sort of like melee and 64. From what I've seen of heavy brawl, we could be looking at actual gameplay balance... something smash has yet to really have.

If you're only looking for slight increase, then I can give it to you, Heavy Brawl has that. If that's all you specifically are looking for, I think Heavy Brawl is for you, I still worry about the recoveries, especially all the dumb SD's I've seen, but they've all been CPU's.

D3's recovery is godly. He has great horizontal recovery, and a really really fast, strong, vertical recovery. I have video proof of this.

Pit's jumps are nerfed a bit, but seriously... he needed it. Plus (and I just learned this), tapping back and forth on the control stick real fast as you do his up+b makes him rise like a mofo... and he retains a godly recovery in heavy brawl because of this.

Kirby was mostly unaffected. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Again, I do have video evidence.

Hmm, I'll look into Kirby again, he was one of the last ones I looked into, I mostly looked into characters I had an interest in, like Lucas, and people that I've faced online, like Wolf. I'm starting to come around to the idea, the combos I've seen aren't ******** like they were in Melee, but if you're only looking to buff combos by a bit, it looks like you'll be able to do so in Heavy Brawl.

But the recoveries man! The recoveries!