Hax's invincible ledge stall tips?

[Aggromidget]

Apparently, Magus overlooked this. Here is his 2008 post: http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-brawl-code-agenda.204677/page-12#post-6133515
He mentions that Ganon, Bowser, Link and Roy can do this, but not Falcon, although the animations above prove it. So I guess this is a new discovery?

…

I never thought the day would come where one of Magus’ posts had an error. My world view has just been shattered.

You are the new Magus

 

[Aggromidget]

Apparently, Magus overlooked this. Here is his 2008 post: http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-brawl-code-agenda.204677/page-12#post-6133515
He mentions that Ganon, Bowser, Link and Roy can do this, but not Falcon, although the animations above prove it. So I guess this is a new discovery?

Brawl/Brawl+-related?

 

[Kadano]

You are the new Magus

No way, man. Take a look at his post layout, tables, internal coding knowledge … I’m just some ape who learned how to make use of Dolphin.

Brawl/Brawl+-related?

It was about porting Melee code / referencing it. He definitely posted about how it works in Melee.

 

[Aggromidget]

Seems this thread's done. I just wanna say that this post by Kadano is really good for comparing the similarities of the 2 invincible ledge techniques http://smashboards.com/threads/haxs-invincible-ledge-stall-tips.340461/#post-15870269 (toggle the spoiler)

 

[Jeapie]

Goddamn, im off to my SD tv trying to get this **** down.
iets time to punish Sheik F tilts when falcon is on the ledge, muha,muhhaha, MUHAHAHAHA

Let it rock

 

[Aggromidget]

Goddamn, im off to my SD tv trying to get this **** down.
iets time to punish Sheik F tilts when falcon is on the ledge, muha,muhhaha, MUHAHAHAHA

Let it rock

If sheik is spamming f-tilts near the ledge, isn't that a free knee?

 

[Jeapie]

Not spamming. Good sheik will wait till the moment you get up from the ledge and hit you with an ftilt 9/10 times

Overtriforce espicially

 

[Aggromidget]

Haxdashing mentioned at Big House 3. Hax vs Kels. Someone knows all about it. I just wanna say that, even when Hax does it, I feel it isn't completely invincible all the way, but amazing mix-up anyway
Edit: It seemed day 2 Haxdashing was even faster than day 1. I hereby issue a challenge to anyone to haxdash and be invincible all the way against a jabbing fox for 20 seconds continuously and put up a video.

 

[tarheeljks]

Yeah, that one is really hard.
Not that I want to deny Hax his credit for mastering this technique, but first, Magus420 has shown this ledgestall in his auto sweetspot video many years ago, and second, “haxdash” is a somewhat misleading term in comparison.

No, it works like that: You’re invincible from frame 1-30 and frame 31 you can grab the ledge again. This is already obsolete though: I just found out that it isn’t actually the invincibility that prevents regrabbing the ledge, it’s actually an independent countdown that starts as soon as you drop from the ledge and ends after 29 airborne frames have passed. This implies (and all my tests strongly concur) that you have zero leniency on letting go of the ledge if you aim for complete invincibility. Thus, it is very important to have this one input down to the frame. Everything else – rejump, waveland, fastfall – has a total of 7 leniency frames and is thus pretty easy, relatively speaking, but dropping from the ledge is harsh. Luckily, there are tricks that can help you get this down to the frame. I wrote it in a Marth guide, but it applies just the same for Falcon:



Yes, although invincible ledgedashstall iterations are always 37 frames, so “slow” doesn’t describe it properly in my opinion.
I did the waveland as late as possible with 315° (everything else is impractical on a non-carved out controller and I don’t think other angles would gain an advantage here) while keeping everything else perfect. I personally call it a “late” ledgedashstall.

Also, here are the same gifs that were in my previous post, but slowed down to 1/4 speed:

Spoiler

tl;dr: Let go of the ledge one frame later than possible and you lose continuous invincibility.

Edit: What the hell. Did you guys know Falcon has another, way simpler ledgestall? I feel like an idiot, probably everybody knows about this because Magus420 elaborated on it 7 years ago. Still, I’ve never heard of it, so I felt like sharing it here:

can you make of gif of this with the backward jump? also, do you know how many frames each one is? same for the ledge dash--> regrab. saw you say there are 37 total frames of invincibility, but still curious as to which is the fastest

 

[Aggromidget]

I've also been practising the way-easier-way of complete ledge invincibility, but seems that I can't even do that perfectly consistently >.>

 

[tarheeljks]

won't let me edit for reason, but i see that someone said the left image is 29 frames and is the slowest?

also someone said the right one is impractical, but i don't really see why? seems like in a perfect world one would attempt that method--assuming it is indeed faster-- and if you jump too far onto the stage you fastfall to grab the ledge. not sure how feasible that is in real time though

 

[Kadano]

Haxdashing mentioned at Big House 3. Hax vs Kels. Someone knows all about it. I just wanna say that, even when Hax does it, I feel it isn't completely invincible all the way, but amazing mix-up anyway
Edit: It seemed day 2 Haxdashing was even faster than day 1. I hereby issue a challenge to anyone to haxdash and be invincible all the way against a jabbing fox for 20 seconds continuously and put up a video.

I haven’t watched all of Hax’s matches at Big House 3, but in those that I have, he didn’t do a single ledgedashstall with complete intangibility. So far, I counted two instances where he managed to do that.

can you make of gif of this with the backward jump? also, do you know how many frames each one is? same for the ledge dash--> regrab. saw you say there are 37 total frames of invincibility, but still curious as to which is the fastest

Backwards jump doesn’t make a difference and looks pretty much the same.
There is no fastest. Every completely intangible ledgestall is exactly 37 frames per iteration, except those that use attacks with extra intangibility (Sheik and Mewtwo).

Frame 1-7: CliffCatch 1-7 (no ledgedrop possible) (always completely intangible)
Frame 8: CliffWait 0 (can perform ledgedrop after this frame) (29 frames of intangibility left after this frame)
Frame 9: Fall 0 (can jump after this frame) (28 frames of intangibility left after this frame) (After this frame, grabbing the ledge is impossible for 28 frames)
Frame 10-36: There are so many different ways to spend these frames that I won’t go into details here. Just look at the gifs for some of these possibilities.
Frame 37: Last frame of intangibility. Last frame of disabled ledgegrab period.
Repeat from frame 1.

Because the intangibility and disabled ledgegrab period counters run independently, with the former starting on CliffCatch 1 and the latter starting on Fall 0, for every frame spend in CliffWait beyond 0, you lose one frame intangibility at the end of the iteration:

Frame 1-7: CliffCatch 1-7 (no ledgedrop possible) (always completely intangible)
Frame 8: CliffWait 0 (can perform ledgedrop after this frame) (29 frames of intangibility left after this frame)
Frame 9: CliffWait 1 (28 frames of intangibility left)
Frame 10: Fall 0 (can jump after this frame) (27 frames of intangibility left after this frame) (After this frame, grabbing the ledge is impossible for 28 frames)
Frame 37: Last frame of intangibility. One frame of disabled ledgegrab period remaining.
Frame 38: No intangibility. Last frame of disabled ledgegrab period.
Repeat from frame 1.

won't let me edit for reason, but i see that someone said the left image is 29 frames and is the slowest?

also someone said the right one is impractical, but i don't really see why? seems like in a perfect world one would attempt that method--assuming it is indeed faster-- and if you jump too far onto the stage you fastfall to grab the ledge. not sure how feasible that is in real time though

You misunderstood. There is no “slowest” ledgedashstall between those two I posted.
If your timing is off by one frame in the left gif, you airdodge and die. Something in between is the most practical; those gifs should mostly illustrate the rather large amount of leniency you have for all inputs save dropping from the ledge.

 

[Aggromidget]

Every completely ingangible ledgestall is exactly 37 frames per iteration, except those that use attacks with extra intangibility (Sheik and Mewtwo).

Frame 1-7: CliffCatch 1-7 (no ledgedrop possible) (always completely intangible)
Frame 8: CliffWait 0 (can perform ledgedrop after this frame) (29 frames of intangibility left after this frame)
Frame 9: Fall 0 (can jump after this frame) (28 frames of intangibility left after this frame) (After this frame, grabbing the ledge is impossible for 28 frames)
Frame 10-36: There are so many different ways to spend these frames that I won’t go into details here. Just look at the gifs for some of these possibilities.
Frame 37: Last frame of intangibility. Last frame of disabled ledgegrab period.
Repeat from frame 1.

Frame 37: Last frame of invincibility. Next frame allows you to regrab the ledge. I can't say that this is completely invincible, and requires frame-perfectness to do. Like I said, amazing mix-up, early part has invincibility, but the later part most likely won't.

 

[ToTs]

[/quote]

Oh my god, you legend. Right image seems highly impractical. Also, instead of calling it the ledgedashstall, perhaps call it the haxdash?
Edit: Quote from the wiki link you made: " It is not possible to grab the ledge again before the invincibility has ended". This implies that this technique is not completely invincible. Maybe one frame of not-invincibility or something like that
Edit 2: The first image uses all 29 frames of invincibility, when frames are viewed individually, so it's the slowest possible invincible haxdash. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

I'm able to do this, however I don't know if it's different from P:M as far as frames. I do the commands different. Instead of down forward jump, I push back forward jump. I get the same effect as the faster gif. Is fast falling even necessary on the faster gif?

 

[Aggromidget]

I'm able to do this, however I don't know if it's different from P:M as far as frames. I do the commands different. Instead of down forward jump, I push back forward jump. I get the same effect as the faster gif. Is fast falling even necessary on the faster gif?

You're able to Haxdash at the perfect 37 frames consistently? If not, I'm sure a lot of people can do it imperfectly.
I'm not familiar with P:M. I only play it at tourneys when someone brings a setup, which is rarely. Also, both gifs are the same speed? They both use all the frames of invincibility before getting back on the ledge. One option is to fast fall, and the other is to instantly (or to be more accurate, as quickly as possible) jump forward after moving off backwards off ledge.

Also, Kadano, I'd like some clarification. The perfect Haxdash is 37 frames exactly (+1 frame to grab ledge). In that first frame of vulnerability, he latches onto the ledge. Is this COMPLETELY invincible? My question arises from the grey area - the first frame of vulnerability. Like, is it possible for (say) a Marth d-tilt to hit him on the 38th frame? I'm thinking no, but I'd like certainty.

 

[ToTs]

You're able to Haxdash at the perfect 37 frames consistently? If not, I'm sure a lot of people can do it imperfectly.
I'm not familiar with P:M. I only play it at tourneys when someone brings a setup, which is rarely. Also, both gifs are the same speed? They both use all the frames of invincibility before getting back on the ledge. One option is to fast fall, and the other is to instantly (or to be more accurate, as quickly as possible) jump forward after moving off backwards off ledge.

Also, Kadano, I'd like some clarification. The perfect Haxdash is 37 frames exactly (+1 frame to grab ledge). In that first frame of vulnerability, he latches onto the ledge. Is this COMPLETELY invincible? My question arises from the grey area - the first frame of vulnerability. Like, is it possible for (say) a Marth d-tilt to hit him on the 38th frame? I'm thinking no, but I'd like certainty.

Oh no, not hardly. I heard the term, then seen Hax doing it and then switching it up to a gents knee at BH3. I was like wow dude lol. I only tried it for like 30 mins last night. Idk if it's perfect invincibility, but it looks exactly like the second example. Basically flashing white the whole 37 frames right? I can only do it 4 in a row max, then I SD. It's gonna take a lot of practice to do it without having to think about it.

 

[Aggromidget]

Update: It actually seems easier to me to do the second option (no fast fall required). I initially practised the first option, but the fast fall often screwed me up, so I tried the second, and it's a BILLION times easier. Just thought I'd put this down here.

Edit:
So I've talked to some people about this technique, and they say that it's hard, which it is until you get the timing right. I thought that I'd put in a sort of a pseudo-guide on how to do this, although I'm sure people can work it out from the work (gifs) made by Kadano.

My technique - bear in mind that I'm sure this is not 37 frame complete invincible.
1. Ledge Grab. Invincibility begins.
2. Let go of ledge as early as you can by pushing away. (Pushing down makes the double jump timing more difficult)
3. Falling in mid-air, push (and hold) control stick towards stage
4. Time double-jump so that (in mid-air) you're barely above the stage at the PEAK of your jump.
5. Once you are 1 Falcon length on the stage, waveland away from stage. See Figure 1.

Figure 1: Once you are about this far in, waveland away from stage. However, you should be barely above the stage. In this image, falcon is too high.
6. When you touch the stage, hold control stick towards stage, so that you grab the ledge and do not fly away from it.
7. (Optional step). Once off-stage, tap-down, releasing it ASAP. The timing for this step is incredibly tricky and risky. If you want complete invincibility, then this is necessary. Personally, I don't do this yet, but I'm still practising.

This technique is all about timing like wavedashing, and theoretically, you should be able to do this with your eyes closed.

I should probably put this edit in a new post, so people see the update, but I don't wanna double post. I seem to be every second post already :O
Edit2: Holy crap, so tricky trying to put this image in the post

 

[Nicco]

Ok to all you non believers!

Yesterday I did three invincible haxdashes in a row through a jab spamming pikachu. The gifs also clearly show that it's possible to stay invincible. Also, Hax told me that you should press down, not away, to let go of the edge to get as much speed as possible. Now that I've learned both ways, pressing away feels super slow.

And just because you're good at shield drops, doesn't automatically make you good at this. They have very little in common. Example: Hax doesn't sdrop. Jeapie doesn't haxdash.
I think Jeapie is mastering this as we speak though.

 

[Twinkles]

@Aggro ****** isn't the optional step still a fast-fall?

i sometimes do that with the wavedash back edgehog with marth, just tap down to fast-fall without falling through the ledge

anyway, good stuff guys. next time i get friendlies in with someone, i'll spend like 15-30. min just practicing haxdashing by the ledge

 

[ToTs]

I can do it pretty consistently now, but I use that invincibility to straight gimp the opponent off the ledge. I'll have to post a gif or upload it to YouTube tomorrow, so you can see what I mean. It gets through bowsers edge fire breath and chomp, so I assume it gets through everything lol

 

[Aggromidget]

Ok to all you non believers!

Yesterday I did three invincible haxdashes in a row through a jab spamming pikachu. The gifs also clearly show that it's possible to stay invincible. Also, Hax told me that you should press down, not away, to let go of the edge to get as much speed as possible. Now that I've learned both ways, pressing away feels super slow.

And just because you're good at shield drops, doesn't automatically make you good at this. They have very little in common. Example: Hax doesn't sdrop. Jeapie doesn't haxdash.
I think Jeapie is mastering this as we speak though.

That's great. Yes, I'm now aware that it's possible to stay completely invincible. As long as you grab edge on Frame 38.
Yes, ideally, at any time you fall, you should fast-fall, including to get back on ledge.
Obviously this technique requires a lot of practice to get all the timing right.
The option I provided is a way to get started on Haxdashing. Small steps. Add elements along the way.

Um, I don't recall saying anything about shield drops :O

@Aggro ****** isn't the optional step still a fast-fall?

i sometimes do that with the wavedash back edgehog with marth, just tap down to fast-fall without falling through the ledge

anyway, good stuff guys. next time i get friendlies in with someone, i'll spend like 15-30. min just practicing haxdashing by the ledge

Yes, the optional step is (IMO) the most difficult part because if you hold down for too long, you might miss the ledge and fall, messing up the technique, possibly ending in the use of Up-B to recover the mistake.

Bear in mind, this is more of a mix-up than a tool for complete invincibility. If you want complete invincibility, you may as well ledge hop over and over. It enables Falcon to get on stage easier, which is a HUGE boon. For example, you can now camp ledge safer when they've got the invincibility from death. Guaranteed no damage, but you're on ledge, BUT NOW, you can get on easier.
Edit: typos

 

[Twinkles]

you'll definitely want to practice the haxdash so that you can at least get as much invincibility as you can muster

safer it is, the better it is, i do need to work on invinvible ledgehop though.

 

[Aggromidget]

you'll definitely want to practice the haxdash so that you can at least get as much invincibility as you can muster

safer it is, the better it is.

This. This 10 times.

 

[Nicco]

You want to practice the haxdash without the fastfall. Remember to press down, not away. Practice different mixups like wavelanding out, then immediately jumping and wavelanding onto a platform.

The hardest part for me was to get the double jump lined up correctly. As soon as you press down you should hold in, then jump immediately. Remember to press straight down to avoid the normal ledge get up or ledgejump.

Once you're good at this, adding the fast fall is not too difficult. You can practice by wavedashing offstage to fast fall and/or doing the ledgestall, where you jump above the ledge to fast fall regrab.

 

[ShrieK1295]

Is there a consensus for what angle on the joystick is optimal when wavelanding backward? For the sake of clarity and since an angle requires two lines, let's say we are drawing the angle from the vertical line, 6oclock angle. I've been doing a roughly 45 degree angle--what is everyone else doing?

 

[Nicco]

optimal is 90

EDit: Oh you were drawing the line vertically. Then yeah 45.

 

[Aggromidget]

You want to practice the haxdash without the fastfall. Remember to press down, not away. Practice different mixups like wavelanding out, then immediately jumping and wavelanding onto a platform.

Pressing down = Fast fall >.>
I'm guessing you mean the fast fall to catch ledge.
I suggest practising without fast fall at all, then gradually add it to the technique.

The hardest part for me was to get the double jump lined up correctly. As soon as you press down you should hold in, then jump immediately. Remember to press straight down to avoid the normal ledge get up or ledgejump.

I don't know what you mean by "lined up".
If you press away, you don't get ledge get up or ledge jump. You just fall (not fast fall).
If you press down, then jump immediately, that essential is the same effect as pressing away, then jumping immediately. If you jump immediately, you end up super high above the stage. What I suggested was timing the double jump so that you're barely above the stage, so the waveland is a piece of cake.

Fast fall, time double jump properly, waveland off, fast fall to ledge is the technique for complete invincibility.
For complete invincibility, I'm sure that any time you're falling, you should be fast falling.

 

[Nicco]

Pressing down = Fast fall >.>
I'm guessing you mean the fast fall to catch ledge.
I suggest practising without fast fall at all, then gradually add it to the technique.


I don't know what you mean by "lined up".
If you press away, you don't get ledge get up or ledge jump. You just fall (not fast fall).
If you press down, then jump immediately, that essential is the same effect as pressing away, then jumping immediately. If you jump immediately, you end up super high above the stage. What I suggested was timing the double jump so that you're barely above the stage, so the waveland is a piece of cake.

Fast fall, time double jump properly, waveland off, fast fall to ledge is the technique for complete invincibility.
For complete invincibility, I'm sure that any time you're falling, you should be fast falling.

Dude wtf? How can u misinterpret everything I wrote in that post?

When I say no fast fall, I mean no fast fall at the end. Obviously. When I say press down and not away, I mean press down to let go of the edge, not away. Obviously. I didn't say jump immediately. I said press down, hold in, then jump immediately. Immediately as in immediately after you start holding in. Obviously.

Yes, jumping immediately after pressing down, is the same as jumping immediately after you press away; but as you go from down to in, you fall far enough that the double jump should line you up perfectly for the waveland. And when I say straight down to avoid ledge get up or ledge jump, I'm referring to the fact, that it's easy to press the stick diagonally towards the stage instead of down, since you wanna hold in as quickly as possible after you press down. This is especially true on the left side of the stage. Ever wondered why Hax does so many ledge jumps? There's why. Obviously.

Edit: OBVIOUSLY

 

[Aggromidget]

Dude wtf? How can u misinterpret everything I wrote in that post?

When I say no fast fall, I mean no fast fall at the end. Obviously. When I say press down and not away, I mean press down to let go of the edge, not away. Obviously. I didn't say jump immediately. I said press down, hold in, then jump immediately. Immediately as in immediately after you start holding in. Obviously.

Yes, jumping immediately after pressing down, is the same as jumping immediately after you press away; but as you go from down to in, you fall far enough that the double jump should line you up perfectly for the waveland. And when I say straight down to avoid ledge get up or ledge jump, I'm referring to the fact, that it's easy to press the stick diagonally towards the stage instead of down, since you wanna hold in as quickly as possible after you press down. This is especially true on the left side of the stage. Ever wondered why Hax does so many ledge jumps? There's why. Obviously.

Edit: OBVIOUSLY

Wow dude, you're so aggressive. And I'm Aggro******.
I'm glad we agree on the technique.
I'm just gonna walk away from this.

 

[Nicco]

I was joking

Obviously

 

[CorteX]

Just wanted to add that I had the most success practicing this technique with the single player name entry glitch on dreamland.
The closeup camera view really lets you see the exact height you're at.
Note that I'm using the second method which involves no fast fall.
When I grab the ledge, I press down + jump at the same time, hold forward for a fraction of a second, then backwards and press L to complete the dash.
It has to be perfect tho, if your control stick isn't horizontally all the way you will fall to your death.
Loving this technique and getting pretty consistent at it!

 

[Kadano]

Haven’t been checking this thread since my last post / Aggromidgets reply after that. (Didn’t reply to that since I had no idea what you were trying to tell me and afterwards I got no quote alerts)
I thought that the two gifs were enough to explain the technique, but apparently they aren’t. Also, there are some shenanigans most people probably don’t know about I probably should explain as well. I did so in this article I just wrote: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Kadano/Ledgedashstall_guide
If there is something that you think needs more explaining, please tell me here and I will include it there.

Is there a consensus for what angle on the joystick is optimal when wavelanding backward? For the sake of clarity and since an angle requires two lines, let's say we are drawing the angle from the vertical line, 6oclock angle. I've been doing a roughly 45 degree angle--what is everyone else doing?

-45° (315°) is the optimal angle in this situation. A lower angle (~343°) would make the waveland go reach the edge earlier, but if you are a bit too high, you risk airdodging to your death. A steeper angle (~287°) makes the frame window for the waveland open up earlier, but requires very high precision.

 

[Aggromidget]

Haven’t been checking this thread since my last post / Aggromidgets reply after that. (Didn’t reply to that since I had no idea what you were trying to tell me and afterwards I got no quote alerts)
I thought that the two gifs were enough to explain the technique, but apparently they aren’t.

I was confused about the invincibility on frames, but I got it now.
I just wanna say that to be invincible, people have to be frame perfect and catch the ledge on the exact frame you come out of invincibility (all of which you implied in one of your earlier posts here). Catching the ledge at frame 38 exactly.
Also, I've added that I thought that it was unreliable to use to consistently as a tool for complete invincibility, and that it's a tool for a mix-up to allow you to get on stage easier. There is, as you pointed out, a far easier tool for complete invincibility. Even though, you're required to catch the ledge on frame 38 exactly, there's less chance of input error.

Edit: Also, if you have the time, could you look at the u-throw vs d-throw thread? We could use your proficiency in acquiring frame data on the amount of time falcon has before the opponent techs a throw (most notably on spacies).

 

[Sleepy]

ok so it has been a while since this thread has been addressed, anyone having trouble getting this one out on Yoshi's? or is it in my head?

 

[Alexo30]

ok so it has been a while since this thread has been addressed, anyone having trouble getting this one out on Yoshi's? or is it in my head?

I'm pretty sure that there needs to be a slight difference in the angle of your air dodge, compared to the rest of the stages due to the slant. It is still possible. Are you landing and spot-dodging?

 

[Sleepy]

I'm pretty sure that there needs to be a slight difference in the angle of your air dodge, compared to the rest of the stages due to the slant. It is still possible. Are you landing and spot-dodging?

well here are the things that happen when I do it on yoshi's
1) wait too long and lose invincibility and get hit
2) somehow turnaround and shield roll
3) miss the edge entirely

 

[ToTs]

Lol I'm having the opposite actually. I can do it great on yoshi's but all the other stages I do it fast enough to jump up waveland double jump to the platform above with my invincibility clearing me of attacks at the ledge. But when I go to try to get consecutive ledge grabs, he just wavelands, and slides off stage requiring me to jump or FF jump to sweet spot the ledge. It works only sometimes, I'm just not sure why he goes off stage. If I do it a little slower he doesn't fly off, not sure if I'm keeping my invincibility frames 100% though.



Update: Oh, so I was holding down to long, problem solved lol

 

[ToTs]

I have more to add lol. So anyone having trouble on yoshi's, I can do it perfect on that stage. Since I'm not able to do it well on all other legal stages, it's obvious that on yoshi's you do it different. I don't do the down input on yoshi's but it works perfectly. So try that, and try to waveland as close to the edge, almost straight down.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I guess my question kinda belongs in here:

Is it possible to do a ledgedash-> invincible jab? I feel like it's possible, I just don't have an AR, so I have to pause to see if Falcon's still "glowing."

 

[6VI6]

Invincible jab is definitely possible, I feel like invincible grab is possible too but not sure about that one.