Gunner Style Discussion

[NinjaLink]

 

[Collective of Bears]

I've been playing my Gunner a lot against friends, and I gotta say Bomb Drop (The high-knockback grenade) is REALLY strong. When I get launched up I like to plop one out and fall with it near me. It makes it a lot tougher for them to follow up on me.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I've been messing around with GNM3112 and so far I'm really liking it. Gunner has a really strong mid range game and this set is designed to help strengthen it further. The set of specials makes it really unsafe for anyone to approach and like you said, @ Collective of Bears , the bomb drop really helps clear them out if they do get close to you. Grenade Launch is good for harassing opponents who won't try to approach and the long lasting hit box catches spot dodgers. It's also helps to disrupt edge guarders when you're trying to recover. Fire pillar creates a nice wall that allows you to fire more projectiles safely.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I like 3131 for Mii Gunner. Just a quick rundown on what I think the most viable options for Mii Gunner are.

Grenade Launch is one of the best moves in the game. The advantage on block is absolutely crazy, the arc of space it controls is perfect, it's difficult to dodge, and it combos into whatever. Perfect move. It seriously invalidates a lot of Mii Gunner's specials.

Stealth Burst pairs well w/ Grenade Launch as it travels faster and has good KO power. Very situational move, but none of the side-bs are particularly good.

Up-b is actually totally up to preference. I give the edge to the pure recovery offered by Arm Rocket because Mii Gunner doesn't have anything else aiding his recovery and that's what your up-b is for primarily. Very fast and reliable. Lunar Launch is still a good recovery and can score easy kills on people recovering low below you. Cannon Uppercut has invincibility on start-up and can kill, making it an excellent out of shield option, something Mii Gunner really lacks. But it will always end up short on recovery, you'll die a lot with that one.

All the down-bs are situational. Bomb Drop is probably the best of the 3, and it does have KO power, but it's sorta slow and Grenade Launch covers a lot of the same zone. If you're not using Grenade Launch I would definitely use Bomb Drop. Echo Reflector can be very useful against characters like Robin who can blow your camp game up with Thoron, which is why I use it.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

One thing bomb drop has over grenade launch, besides the increased knock back, is that it's single hit has more priority then all of the hits of grenade launch. Bomb drop can destroy a mecha koopa while they'll walk through the grenade blast for example.

Not sure how useful this is but grenade drop lets you change direction while charging and if you hit the opposite direction right after you release the grenade you fire it in one direction and then switch the face the other. The only real use I can think of right now is a possible bair follow up.

 

[Afro Smash]

I'm currently using:
Neutral B - Grenade Launch
Side B - Stealth Burst
Down B - Absorbing Vortex
Up B - Lunar Launch

He's really difficult to approach and his Smash attacks are pretty powerful, definitely my favourite Mii variation.

Also I was wondering, why aren't we allowed to take Mii's online?

 

[Maikou]

I'm currently using:
Neutral B - Grenade Launch
Side B - Stealth Burst
Down B - Absorbing Vortex
Up B - Lunar Launch

He's really difficult to approach and his Smash attacks are pretty powerful, definitely my favourite Mii variation.

Also I was wondering, why aren't we allowed to take Mii's online?

It's only anonymous online that we can't do so with, and it's because of the obvious possibility of inappropriate Miis. You know, like literal d***heads. I can't believe people actually go out of their way to do so, but it's true.

 

[shogungari]

It's only anonymous online that we can't do so with, and it's because of the obvious possibility of inappropriate Miis. You know, like literal d***heads. I can't believe people actually go out of their way to do so, but it's true.

Where there's a will, there's a creature someone shaped to look like a giant penis.

 

[JipC]

Anyone else using a Guest Mii just in case they're the only legal ones at tournies? That plus if you're already using a guest Mii it would take like 5 seconds to setup at WiiU tournies

Specials I'm using are:
B - 3 Grenade Launch
SideB - Gunner Missile (clone of Samus's sideB)
UpB - Arm Rocket (Similar to Diddy's but it does no damage and you can't charge it, best recovery upb though)
DownB - Bomb Drop

Also with good timing, you can launch a grenade at someone, and when it hits them (or their shield?) you can run up and grab before the explosion ends.
Bomb Drop I've just been using mid-air to come down on opponents and approach, if you keep holding forward and following it's trajectory mid-air it'll be sort of a shield beneath you. Haven't found too much of a use for using it on the ground though, I guess edgeguarding?
Also what are effective ways to use the missiles? Never been much of a Samus player

Oh yeah, and ledge trump -> bair kill is a thing (though with pretty much any character this works)

 

[Lilfut]

Huh, didn't realize Bomb Drop could be so useful. Probably oughta switch to that, since I haven't really been using the shine that much.

I think my chunky Mii might be a bit of an issue here - seems like a faster character might do better with the moves available here?

 

[UliWa]

Yeah but what if your state does not allow customs I think we need to present a fair ruleset for mii's in tourney, Default weight and height is simple and easy to do so imo that could be a good starting point. Plus mii's do have default specials; i wanna use miis in tourney but many people considered them banned we need to present a fair tourney rule set for them.

 

[Xiivi]

So I got first with Mii Gunner last week and 2nd this week. Using 1-1-1-1 because let's be real what makes gunner so good isn't her specials; so a nice neutral set works very well options wise.

Uair gives great platform/anti-airdodge control. If you do it low to bait an airdodge and fastfall it before the final hit comes out you can get some great punishes. Nair is good to stop from getting juggled. Dair is alright but lacking. Bair is a solid kill move. Fair is amazing; great when recovering; also good control with fastfall Fair to Ftilt. Ftilt is really great by the way, what a wonderful move. Dtilt is beastly as a kill option that can be easily saved. If you save if you can feel free to use dsmash a bit liberally which is a great anti-roll punisher. Fsmash has so much damn cool down time, you really can't spam it and expect not to get punished; only use when you're actually going to hit with it. Side-B is your anti-projectile spam wall and gives some nice control. Utilt's hitbox sucks; but it has it's uses, especially at low percents. You have some good aerial freedom after Up-B, similar to Melee Falcon in a sense.

Some match-up impressions based on the limited experience I've had against other good characters:
vs. Rosalina - Rosalina's a beast but this is very doable; you have a lot of ways to pressure Rosalina while she's far away and has a luma in your face.
vs. ZSS - Just be patient here; you can force her to try and rush you and it's not too bad when you're right in her face.
vs. Greninja - Uphill battle with this one; Greninja can rush you down effectively and punish hard.

 

[Eji1700]

Brief thoughts-

Probably the best normal set of the mii's. Great options all around. Throws are eh, but that's fine.

Surprisingly decent special options.

B- grenade seems best by far, but i'd be willing to use any of them.
Side B- I see no clear advantage for any of them. All of them seem useable.
Up B- Gunners weakest area(recovery). That said any of these could work depending on how aggressive you want to be.
Down B- Probably bomb drop or reflector. I'm still trying to figure out how good reflector is(obviously not shine levels, but has potential), but either way the absorb just seems to situational when compared to how strong the other two are.

 

[AzuraSarah]

In love with the Gunner from day one. Using 1-1-1-1 moveset - I haven't really messed around with the specials that much with the exception of the Side-B, between Flame Pillar and Gunner Missile. Gunner Missile is weaker than Samus' missiles by a long shot but have a crazy turn rate on the homing ones. I found Pillar to be better as it covers defensive options when returning to stage against characters like Jiggly, or to clear the ledge before ledge grabbing. Pillar can also be used to camp ledges, damaging those who detach and regrab the ledge, forcing characters with weaker jump options to roll toward me, to which I can punish with a dtilt or dsmash with a good read so I'm not stuck in the lag of the attack.

I can't really justify getting rid of the charge shot, as the gunner has so few kill options as it is, nor am I willing to change out the recovery as the default recovery move allows the gunner to pull off edge guards from a crazy distance and return to safety. I stick with echo reflector but obviously bomb drop would be better against opponents without projectiles.

Fair is incredibly helpful for returning to stage against opponents who don't shield it, detach from ledge jump and fair.
Up Smash is also viable against ground opponents unlike Samus' version, especially against larger opponents as the Mii is smaller and hits closer to the ground.


A couple of things I haven't seen listed here about the forward smash, the final hit of the smash extends slightly past, above and below the initial rapid hits, which can take a few players off guard. Jiggly and Kirby can actually duck the initial part of the smash but not the last hit. It's also great to use against shield-heavy players. If their shield is already weakened a bit, purposely aiming to hit their block with a forward smash will often dwindle their shield down enough with the initial hits of the smash so the final hit will hit their body. This is something I especially aim to do if they block a fully charged neutral B from me.

 

[Eji1700]

No kill moves? All 3 smashes are legit and can kill, and you can quite realistically get kills from dair, bair, and uair with the occasional dtilt, not to mention gimping or just using B3.

Granted i'm not saying charge shot is bad, but I'd say he's got quite a bit of kill potential.

 

[AzuraSarah]

Didn't say no, said few. While all the smashes are capable of killing, up smash is a bit wonky at times and won't always chain the enemy to the final hit and down smash has blind spots if standing right up against the gunner, as well as the first hit doesn't always knock them back into the second (Most notably at higher percents it will fling them past it). Forward smash is great since it's hard to spot-dodge but has quite a bit of end lag and is very easy to punish - Though that said, it's range allows it to punish other attacks with relative ease. Down tilt and back air I find the most reliable for getting kills, but down tilt only kills at 130% on average and depending on match up it can sometimes be unfeasible catching someone in a back air off stage to kill them earlier I find. Dair I find incredibly sub-par due to the small area of coverage and the slow start up, and I'll often just use a nair instead to chase off stage.

Uair I have mixed feelings on and no real solid thoughts on yet.

Down Tilt is my most common move I get kills with right now, especially against the lighter characters + stages with lower blast ceilings.

 

[popsofctown]

Picking charge shot and having another kill move sounds appealing for sure but the grenade is INSANE. It dominates campwars, destroys shields, forces jumps, bakes cookies, sets up approaches, and finds waldo.

I use max height Mii gunner, which doesn't make him much shorter than Samus. Unless I'm just imagining it, taller miis extend their hitboxes out more.

Maybe I should play different heights though. Short mii gunner might resist shield pokes better and hit small characters better.

 

[Eji1700]

Picking charge shot and having another kill move sounds appealing for sure but the grenade is INSANE. It dominates campwars, destroys shields, forces jumps, bakes cookies, sets up approaches, and finds waldo.

I use max height Mii gunner, which doesn't make him much shorter than Samus. Unless I'm just imagining it, taller miis extend their hitboxes out more.

Maybe I should play different heights though. Short mii gunner might resist shield pokes better and hit small characters better.

If you plan on eventually playing competitively i'd suggest using a "neutral" mii, who's just middle height and middle weight, since they'll likely be the competitive standard.

 

[popsofctown]

If you plan on eventually playing competitively i'd suggest using a "neutral" mii, who's just middle height and middle weight, since they'll likely be the competitive standard.

Not in my region.

 

[SmashBroPlusB]

Stealth Burst pairs well w/ Grenade Launch as it travels faster and has good KO power. Very situational move, but none of the side-bs are particularly good.

I respectfully disagree here; I actually favor Flame Pillar due to its fixed diagonal knockback. Unlike Robin's Arcfire or Ness's PK Fire, the Flame Pillar only damages enemies once and send them back by a small amount, though it still lingers like the previous examples and can catch opponents who run into it after it lands. I find the fixed knockback to be incredibly useful for edgeguards or chaining into Grenade Launch, dash attack, or f-smash.

Stealth Burst is still really good, though.

So I got first with Mii Gunner last week and 2nd this week. Using 1-1-1-1 because let's be real what makes gunner so good isn't her specials; so a nice neutral set works very well options wise.

Again, I feel like this is determined more by how you play the Gunner. With my personal build of 3-1-3-1, I find myself using Grenade Launch and Flame Pillar quite often, pressuring opponents from afar until they close in or allow me to approach, countering other ranged annoyances like Pit's arrows, Peach's veggies, or Robin's Thunder spells with the Echo Reflector. In a sense I compare my liberal use of her Neutral-B and Side-B moves to the way one might play Bowser Jr., keeping pressure on the field with Mechakoopas and shots from the Koopa Cannon.

 

[Kaddy]

I think the best weight and size option for the gunner is as small as possible for the both options. The speediness seems to good.

 

[zephyrnereus]

personally, I prefer my mii with max height and medium weight. sure, this adds more endlag to some moves, but the range you get on your normals is monstrous. the gunner is a character that plays from mid and long range, so it makes sense that your smashes, tilts and even arerials get as much range as possible. to put it into perspective, gunner's side smash can get slightly longer than a battlefield platform, and the last hit reaches even farther. a tiny gunner can barely get the last hit from that distance. gunner doesn't really need to go all in like the fighter, so adding more range while sacrificing some movement simply feels right. the kit just synergies well. if they get close, simply Fair away to make room while hitting your opponent. if they're in your face, a good Nair will get them out of your way and in the position for a Fair or any special.

if you still want the gunner to be mobile enough, simply go max height and minimum weight.

of course, this is if people are ok with different weighted miis. I got a neutral guest mii ready in case of people not wanting variety.

 

[Kaddy]

I hadn't considered the extra range on moves. That F-Smash range sounds monstrous.
Will I be sacrificing aerial mobility with a larger height though? I ask because my favorite thing to do (borderline spamming) is full hop Down+B and react accordingly with a retreat back or keep moving forward. I just don't want to sacrifice the distance I get on that retreat back. I would test this out, but I do not own the game.

 

[zephyrnereus]

unfortunately, you do sacrifice mobility for height and range. not sure which down b you use, but I guess if you wanna try making your mii more mobile, you can make a minimum weight and slightly under the max height to make your character a bit more mobile. I haven't done a lot of testing, but I know that height affects range and weight affects mobility. not sure if weight adds more damage, but I know for a fact that the knockback is the same on all heights and weights, so kill percentages are the same between miis despite their height and weight.

 

[Kaddy]

Next time I play I'll experiment with different heights.
And I use the Bomb Drop for my down+b.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Can someone please explain to me everything that changes when you toggle height and weight? I have no idea where to look for this info so I'm asking here.

 

[zephyrnereus]

from the little that I've experimented, height affects range, and weight affects tankyness (I'm pretty sure this is for all miis, as I've seen mii swordfighters with larger swords). both affect endlag, movement speed and jump height. I'm not so sure about damage, but knockback is pretty much consistent throughout. I'd like to see a more detailed chart though.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-height-width-analysis.373891/#post-18087864

 

[Kenturo]

Smallest Mii is definitely the best one to use. Having less endlag/being faster/being able to properly position yourself and follow up on hits is way more important than having a slightly larger hitbox on only some attacks.

Edit: and also better recovery

 

[zephyrnereus]

so after a bit more testing, I found out that charged smash attacks deal 1% more/less damage depending on weight. also, making a smaller mii means you get launched out much easily, whereas a taller and heavier mii can stay longer on the battlefield. after playing with a short/light, a medium/medium, and a tall/heavy I ended up preferring my own mii with tall/medium. personally, I don't think height and weight affect too much to be considered banned.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I play my gunner more as a hit and run type. I stay just out reach and harass my opponent with a combination of Fair, Grenade Launch, and Bomb Drop until I see an opening and then I charge in, generally with Nair, Fair, Bair, or Jab. When they start to turn the tables, I Nair and Bomb Drop usually help me keep them out of my space. I've had the most success with default mii but I've been trying out small/tubby recently.

Will anyone be around to spar for a bit in an hour (3 EST)?

 

[zephyrnereus]

I really want to practice gunner dittos, but I won't get home until around 4. would that be ok?

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I have class again from 4-6:45 and I'll probably go to dinner afterwards. How about 7:45?

 

[zephyrnereus]

not sure... I have dinner with friends at 6, so I dunno how long that will take. I'm guessing I'd return by 8 or later.
though, we should take this to PMs to not mess up the thread.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Yeah, would hate to interrupt all the constructive discussion =P.

 

[Kaddy]

Can you guys upload videos of it? Either of you jave a streaming set-up? :3

 

[zephyrnereus]

sorry, I don't have a stream. but if replays can be uploaded from the SD card I could upload those here. I only have smash 3DS. and maybe we should also make a thread for practicing our miis, since for glory is dumb and doesn't let you use miis...

 

[san.]

Mii Gunner has a great recovery with Absorbing Vortex (and IMO Arm Rocket). Double jump + downB with Absorbing Vortex gives extra lift, enough to recover from the very bottom of the stage. Mii Gunner has no problems recovering horizontally with good aerial speed, projectile coverage, and using forward air to propel your momentum.

Edit: I learned that with fully short Mii Gunners, people can get out of Usmash fairly easily, but increase the height a bit to around 20% with around 65% weight and you'll still be just as good with an up smash that's difficult to get out of.

 

[Damix91]

I go 1-1/3-1-2

Charge Shot- I find Grenade Launch fairly redundant with bomb drop. Grenade Launch has fairly poor endlag. Its slower and easier to react to than Charge Shot. Charge Shot can be used to punish counters baited with fair or landings out of reach with KO potential which Grenade Launch can't do. Would consider Grenade Launch if I felt the need to take Reflector or Absorbing Vortex against a projectile heavy character. I think Laser Blaze is a poor version of fox's neutral B (which isn't great in this game anyway- too much lag).

Flame Pillar- Controls the ground. Encourages your opponent to jump, where he can be harassed by fair. Helps Edgeguard. Sliding off platforms to approach with bair can be good as its your best KO aerial and spacing can make it safe. I think Samus Missile (3) is pretty good once you get to mid percents and the homing missiles with their crazy turning rate start inducing hitstun and the missiles provide a better long range game. Against Sonic/fox/sheik and other top tier speedsters I would go with Flame Pillar for the ground control. Otherwise I would say personal preference.

Lunar Launch- After you this recovery you can drift during your freefall. This i think is a major point it has over Arm Rocket. Arm Rocket if not forces you to follow the same trajectory on your way down with no aerial mobility. Its an easier recovery to punish IMO despite the fact that it can be angled. Cannon Uppercut is a decent OOS shield option but only kills slightly earlier than OOS USmash and is a shorter recovery.

Bomb Drop- Useful for edge guarding, ground control and most importantly coming down from juggles. It can be B reversed to change your momentum. It can't hit you unless reflected meaning you can often trade with uairs, fairs in situations where your aerials won't cut it. The others are obviously more situational. Reflectors could be useful against day megaman or link/tl though I generally find the perks of bomb drop still out way the use of a reflector. Absorping vortex can be very useful against people like Pit.

 

[zephyrnereus]

here's a fun little tech for those for those who prefer damage over recovery. you can slide off the edge and immediately input (2 cannon uppercut) up b, transforming the ledge into a massive spike hitbox. if done correctly, your mii should also instantly grab the edge, canceling the rest of the animation and the second uppercut hitbox. not only is this a great edgeguarding tool, but if they somehow managed to grab the ledge before you, it automatically sets you up to trump them with your powerful Bair.