Grab infinites in Brawl?- Debate here (Videos added)

[Ignatius]

"Could essentially ruin the game" probably would have been a better choice of words, yes.

Melee was fine with its infinites and chaingrabs.

Also, someone earlier mentioned in regards to the witness system that you wouldn't have to have someone watching every single match, just matches where character choices could lead to the infinite. This made me think that the system would work even better by being at-request. Any Ness/Lucas/whoever player who doesn't want to be susceptible to the DDD standing infinite or the grab release infinite/chain could merely ask for a witness before the set. This seems like a perfectly plausible response to the problem in a live tournament setting, as there are always people around and all the tourney holder would have to do would be grab a person or two and tell them to watch.

As someone that's helped run a lot of tournaments, this isn't feasible in the least. There's just not enough man-power at most tournaments to watch that many matches.

It's something that's well known now anyway, you know the character and it's a bad matchup for them. If you don't want to get chainthrown by a dedede, pick a character that can't be chainthrown. If you play Lucas/Ness you know the risk of getting grabbed and what to avoid, it's a bad matchup. It's something players need to adapt to.

 

[TTT]

Melee was fine with its infinites and chaingrabs.

This isn't melee.

As someone that's helped run a lot of tournaments, this isn't feasible in the least. There's just not enough man-power at most tournaments to watch that many matches.

Were you at a 10 man tourney? All you need is someone that's neutral...not even official. There is always random people watching matching regardless. There are not that many tournament matches that are played without anyone watching at all....plus "that many matches" how many D3 vs. whoever are there gonna be at any given time??

 

[Artanisix]

Huh. As an avid MvC2 player, banning infinites seems a bit silly to me. Then again, the amount of technical skill required to perform an infinite chainthrow in brawl compared to an infinite combo in mvc2 - not to mention the sheer difficulty in getting that opening in mvc2 - is extremely large.

Either way, still seems stupid to ban these infinites. And did tournaments really give a 3-second limit to wobbling? Wow. That's insulting.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why are we still arguing about the validity of policing a problem that doesn't exist?

 

[Ignatius]

This isn't melee.

You're right it isn't, but it's a game from the same series although it is different, no infinite I've seen has been broken in either game.

Were you at a 10 man tourney? All you need is someone that's neutral...not even official. There is always random people watching matching regardless. There are not that many tournament matches that are played without anyone watching at all....plus "that many matches" how many D3 vs. whoever are there gonna be at any given time??

Actually no, I've helped host the entire Melee-FC series, as well as the FoB tournaments, in fact I'm probably one of the more accomplished hosts in the country. When you have 32 setups over a larger venue, a lot of low level matches will be going unwatched, or watched only by friends of the people not currently tied up. And it's easy for someone's friends to lie and say something did or didn't happen.

The fact is, the infinites currently in Brawl aren't anywhere near broken. There's no reason to ban them. Don't get grabbed.

Huh. As an avid MvC2 player, banning infinites seems a bit silly to me. Then again, the amount of technical skill required to perform an infinite chainthrow in brawl compared to an infinite combo in mvc2 - not to mention the sheer difficulty in getting that opening in mvc2 - is extremely large.

Either way, still seems stupid to ban these infinites. And did tournaments really give a 3-second limit to wobbling? Wow. That's insulting.

The tournaments we hosted never banned or put a 3 second limit onto wobbling. You have to get grabbed by the IC's, have nana be alive, not struggle out before the wobbling starts, and have it be on a static stage; in short, you made a lot of mistakes to get wobbled. Only limitation put on is a % to force the IC's to kill so the match isn't stalled out.

Why are we still arguing about the validity of policing a problem that doesn't exist?

Because it's apparently changed into an argument to ban all infinites for some reason, which is equally silly to what you said.

 

[Ignatius]

double ftl.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Yea, sigh, I remember when everyone complained about Sheiks CGing in Melee, man, those were the days. Just replace "Sheik" with "DeDeDe" and you have the same exact scenario. Oh, and one character can CG another character, Marth over Ness, WOW, big deal, Falco can CG a few characters too. And, I still consider Ness's thing more chain grabbing than an infinite, you move across the stage, slowly, true, so just camp the edges as Ness so you'll break free of the chain grab after a shorter time spam.

 

[Pasqual]

Melee was fine with its infinites and chaingrabs.

This isn't Sheik being able to chainthrow to 100% with no sweat. This isn't solo Popo being able to dthrow Sheik by himself for 90%. This is, at least in the specific case of Ness, Marth releasing him until he gets bored of the damage counter going up and releasing to fmash for the stock. Sheik couldn't dthrow Yoshi until whatever percentage desired and then combo it into fair.

As someone that's helped run a lot of tournaments, this isn't feasible in the least. There's just not enough man-power at most tournaments to watch that many matches.

My local regular tournament is Gigabits. Last time I was there (it's been a while, unfortunately) it was a 10 tv or so venue. At that level, there is no problem at all with sending someone to watch this game or that game. If worries persisted that you could only get friends watching each other, than the tournament holder could very easily force 2 or 3 people not playing at that moment (taking into account that you never have more than half of the entrants playing at a venue like Gigabits so there's always going to be manpower) to go watch this match or that one. FC or some major national tournament would take more work but it's not beyond feasible.

It's something that's well known now anyway, you know the character and it's a bad matchup for them. If you don't want to get chainthrown by a dedede, pick a character that can't be chainthrown. If you play Lucas/Ness you know the risk of getting grabbed and what to avoid, it's a bad matchup. It's something players need to adapt to.

"Don't get grabbed" is not something you can say in Brawl. Adaptation to a technique implies there's something you can do about it. In Brawl, you're going to get grabbed.

There is merit to telling someone to have backup characters, and I think everybody should. But you're backup usually isn't going to be as good as you're main, even in counterpick situations sometimes.

Yea, sigh, I remember when everyone complained about Sheiks CGing in Melee, man, those were the days. Just replace "Sheik" with "DeDeDe" and you have the same exact scenario. Oh, and one character can CG another character, Marth over Ness, WOW, big deal, Falco can CG a few characters too. And, I still consider Ness's thing more chain grabbing than an infinite, you move across the stage, slowly, true, so just camp the edges as Ness so you'll break free of the chain grab after a shorter time spam.

I think you mean Lucas, a well timed Marth can regrab Ness standing no matter what DI, yes?

As for edge camping, I feel that it's going to be a major strategy for the time being when this matchup occurs and the Ness or whoever doesn't have a strong secondary. I'm not calling for the ban yet, and it'll be interesting to see how hanging out at the edges and stage counterpicks can help balance out this imbalance.

 

[Ignatius]

This isn't Sheik being able to chainthrow to 100% with no sweat. This isn't solo Popo being able to dthrow Sheik by himself for 90%. This is, at least in the specific case of Ness, Marth releasing him until he gets bored of the damage counter going up and releasing to fmash for the stock. Sheik couldn't dthrow Yoshi until whatever percentage desired and then combo it into fair.

No, but it is similar to Wobbles, which is a legitimate tactic just like this is. And as long as a percent limit gets placed on it so that a kill can be enforced so one match doesn't mean time is stalled out, there shouldn't be any problems.

Aside from people not enjoying watching it.

My local regular tournament is Gigabits. Last time I was there (it's been a while, unfortunately) it was a 10 tv or so venue. At that level, there is no problem at all with sending someone to watch this game or that game. If worries persisted that you could only get friends watching each other, than the tournament holder could very easily force 2 or 3 people not playing at that moment (taking into account that you never have more than half of the entrants playing at a venue like Gigabits so there's always going to be manpower) to go watch this match or that one. FC or some major national tournament would take more work but it's not beyond feasible.

As long as you can trust the people, I suppose this works, but most people tend to be trustworthy anyway. The only real problem is that when tournaments hit a more national level, the hosts generally don't know everyone there, which means dishonesty could be possible. But this is a much better point than what others have been saying, asking for tournament officials at the matches.

"Don't get grabbed" is not something you can say in Brawl. Adaptation to a technique implies there's something you can do about it. In Brawl, you're going to get grabbed.

There is merit to telling someone to have backup characters, and I think everybody should. But you're backup usually isn't going to be as good as you're main, even in counterpick situations sometimes.

I think you mean Lucas, a well timed Marth can regrab Ness standing no matter what DI, yes?

It was still hard to go entire games not getting grabbed by Ice Climbers, but some players were able to do it. Although Brawl is different and with new physics it may be harder, but people also claimed it was impossible to go a match against IC's and not get grabbed 4 times as well.

My biggest problem with anyone wanting to ban this is it's such a small thing affecting only a tiny percentage of the cast. You know who it works on, and it should be considered as bad matchups for the character. You should be fully aware it will be an uphill battle for your character if you choose to play them against that character; and knowing that such a strong counter exists, you should either have a secondary to cover this matchup, or some really good prevention strategies to use against it.

 

[br4n]

your choice not to use the tech. play to win.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

your choice not to use the tech. play to win.

that sounds like something sirlin would say, but then again, sirlin said this

"But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the one player side of the game. There are a few esoteric tricks in various fighting games that are side dependant---that can't be performed on the 2nd player side, for example."

so, first, we have to determine whether or not these are bugs/glitches/exploits, I personally think they are, because I doubt that nintendo intentionally put in a move that can do an infinite amount of damage to a character by simply repeating the same button over and over


second, we have to decide if this removes a character from any form of competitive play, if it does, ban it

EDIT: i know he means physically remove the character from the stage, but hypothetically speaking, this exploit removes 7 characters as viable options

DOUBLE EDIT: and i was right, akuma was banned from street fighter 2 turbo

 

[itsthebigfoot]

essentially ruins the game? as long as you don't have tournament results and tournament games to demonstrate this, your statement is merely conjecture.'

edit: and is also empty of evidence. just like your name. ha, just kidding don't take it personally.

i got a tournament result

andehs house tournament i played edge (best metaknight in the pacific west) and beat him with my dk, who has a game intended advantage of longer range and more killing power

i go on to the winners finals, lose to dsf, and play edge again in the losers finals, he switches to dedede, using it for the first time in tournament, and 3 stocks my dk by infiniting, now, edge does have skill, however, he does not necessarily have a good dedede, and could still easily win by doing the same thing repeatedly, and while you could say don't get grabbed, it is nearly impossible when you don't have a counter to waddle dee spam, and therefore must go on the offensive, making yourself easy to grab

 

[TTT]

i got a tournament result

andehs house tournament i played edge (best metaknight in the pacific west) and beat him with my dk, who has a game intended advantage of longer range and more killing power

i go on to the winners finals, lose to dsf, and play edge again in the losers finals, he switches to dedede, using it for the first time in tournament, and 3 stocks my dk by infiniting, now, edge does have skill, however, he does not necessarily have a good dedede, and could still easily win by doing the same thing repeatedly, and while you could say don't get grabbed, it is nearly impossible when you don't have a counter to waddle dee spam, and therefore must go on the offensive, making yourself easy to grab

Homosecksual. I can't wait to get some more tourny testimony of gayness.

 

[Ignatius]

i got a tournament result

andehs house tournament i played edge (best metaknight in the pacific west) and beat him with my dk, who has a game intended advantage of longer range and more killing power

i go on to the winners finals, lose to dsf, and play edge again in the losers finals, he switches to dedede, using it for the first time in tournament, and 3 stocks my dk by infiniting, now, edge does have skill, however, he does not necessarily have a good dedede, and could still easily win by doing the same thing repeatedly, and while you could say don't get grabbed, it is nearly impossible when you don't have a counter to waddle dee spam, and therefore must go on the offensive, making yourself easy to grab

So you chose to play one of the characters that can be chaingrabbed by dedede and lost. You knew the risk, and took it willingly, you could have changed characters.

 

[Sundown]

It shouldnt be banned, and it wont be banned. Seriously guys, thanks to this stuff there is actually decent punishment in Brawl now, thanks to this stuff, people have to play careful and not play with the "i dont give a *** if i make a mistake because i will only get hit once or thrown once and then it all resets back to square zero because there is almost NO hit stun in Brawl" approach. Before these things were found, Brawl was looking like aj oke to me. Now its not that bad because people are finding REAL WAYS TO PUNISH.

Sakurai already did his best to take punishment out of Brawl (removing hit stun) and he (thank god) messed up (again, he already did it in melee lmao). Dont continue with the dumb things he already started with.

 

[acv]

IMO brawl is a game where countepicking has a greater effect on gameplay and learning to use different characters is essenctial.
for example wolf vs falco:falco can chaingrab wolf until 50% and after the last grab do a dash attack chain a usmash and he has 73% of advantage everytime wolf gets KOed.

DDD:infinite %damage on those characters.

marthhaingrab on ness/lucas.

ICsffffffffff

the solution to CGing if not banned would be to spent hours mastering most characters as to have an effective counterpick for nearly everything.

 

[Sundown]

This new infinites and techniques also add some kind of depth to the game because suddenly this game became INCREDIBLY MATCHUP BASED (im not exactly comparing it to SSF2T, BUT that was also an awesome game that was so deep because it was incredibly match up based).

I actually love that these things are being discovered, they add depth to a game that had none at the beginning, now people need to learn their matchups by heart, they really need to know what they can do with their char to the other chars, and what can the other chars do to his/her char, and who would be the best counterpick to the char that the best counterpick vs your main is.

Omga game all about matchups.... it sounds so good.

It SHOULD NEVER BE BANNED.

Learn your matchups people

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

i got a tournament result

andehs house tournament i played edge (best metaknight in the pacific west) and beat him with my dk, who has a game intended advantage of longer range and more killing power

i go on to the winners finals, lose to dsf, and play edge again in the losers finals, he switches to dedede, using it for the first time in tournament, and 3 stocks my dk by infiniting, now, edge does have skill, however, he does not necessarily have a good dedede, and could still easily win by doing the same thing repeatedly, and while you could say don't get grabbed, it is nearly impossible when you don't have a counter to waddle dee spam, and therefore must go on the offensive, making yourself easy to grab

Ehh,just do like me and just dont go to tournments anymore.Once peoples start to figure out that they cant use their mains they spent years on due to this,they either wont bother showing up or begin to pick characters that can avoid them,which still gonna bring a "yawn"factor to the game anyways..

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Ehh,just do like me and just dont go to tournments anymore.Once peoples start to figure out that they cant use their mains they spent years on due to this,they either wont bother showing up or begin to pick characters that can avoid them,which still gonna bring a "yawn"factor to the game anyways..

umm, no, I just picked up a smarter approach, and found a character that can do well against his main and does not get infinited, so i have a viable option in case he decides to do this again

So you chose to play one of the characters that can be chaingrabbed by dedede and lost. You knew the risk, and took it willingly, you could have changed characters.

i did, however, it was two of three, so even if i went falco (who was my secondary at the time) and beat his dedede, he would get to counterpick characters, so i have to either switch back to dk, or play falco vs his metaknight, either way he has the upperhand by far. the infinites give people free counters that take very little skill, at least i have to learn how to play my counterpick characters

 

[Sundown]

Learn your matchups people, thats all there is to it

Your main gets infinitted by X? Train very hard with a char that infinites (or at least counterpicks very good) X.

It doesnt really matter if it is best out of 3, from the start you should know that he will go D3, then from the start go falco (speaking about your example), or if you are Lucas or Ness and you know youre going vs a marth, pick ROB or a char you feel that counterpicks Marth from the start, very simple. That way even if you get counterpicked the 2nd match and loose it, u will counterpick him the 3rd match, because he HAS to choose character first.

Play your matchups and counters smart people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But on the other hand, In games such as MVC2, KOF, SF, SC, Tekken.
There are very few banned characters, and most infinites are all fair play.

IE: i was at a tournament for MVC2 way back when, I was playing a match against a Magneto, god tier yes. But the only defense was not to get caught. Watch almost all Marvel videos they contain at least one infinite. Infinites are the staple of this game, the users choose when they want to stop it.


When they decided to limit the "wobbles" it was up to most of the melee IC mains to choose not to use it. What it comes down to is that, If we continue to use IC as our mains we have to chose whether we should limit ourselves or allow the infinite to judge our gamestyle.

Mainly because all the characters have an infinite or other near death combo so it equals out somewhat.

The majority of infinites in THIS game are character specific.
Marth's infinite chaingrab on Ness and Lucas.
DDD's infinite chain grab on Donkey Kong.

SF2
MVC2
KOF
The majority of characters could pull off near death or infinite combos.

This is similar to SSB64 where every character was capable of a 0-death combo.
In SSB64 every character could pull an infinite on any character.
The only differce was the oppurtunities that arose for each character. Which is why Pikachu was top since those oppurtunities presented themself far more often than they did for Link.

in SSBB this is not present and many of them require specific characters.
IC's to note are the only ones capable of pulling off an infinite on every other character and grabbing isn't exactly difficult since it will happen (mainly due too the lack of L canceling making it easier for someone to be grabbed)
DDD can only pull his infinite on Donkey Kong.

If it were that other characters were capable of doing an infinite on every other character it wouldn't be too great of an issue, since it would mean that both players have the ability to 0-death their opponent.

It isn't as if Ken or Magneto are only capable of using their infinite on one character.
Or that they are the only ones capable of an infinite.
In their respective games all the characters could infinite them even if the oppurtunity was somewhat limited.

in this game you only have 1 or 2 characters capable of doing an infinite and only then on a specific character.
Since it creates a massive disadvantage for ness and Lucas when facing a Marth it can be understood as ban worthy. SImply because Marth cannot pull it off on other characters nor can ness/Lucas exactly counter and do their own counter.
They really end up with a limit to the strategy available to theme specially since Ness and Lucas' ground game is superior to their aerial game.

I can understand why people would want it to be banned.
Doesn't bother me either way I would probably switch to someone else. (though losing that first round can sometimes kill moral)

 

[Kikuichimonji]

EDIT: i know he means physically remove the character from the stage, but hypothetically speaking, this exploit removes 7 characters as viable options

These two things have nothing in common. Also, chaingrabbing/infiniting is NOT a glitch, at least with DDD. His chaingrab just utilizes the knockback of his move. It's essentially a combo with only one move involved. Just because it probably wasn't intended doesn't make it a glitch. It would have to do something illogical to be a glitch. Wavedashing was arguably a glitch. This isn't.

Also, these 7 characters are useful for OTHER matchups. It's not like every single person can do it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

every single person can do it, you just hit z repeatedly, for dedede you hit z then down, it takes no skill whatsoever, and not in the scrubby "its cheap" kinda way, in the "you press one button and win" kinda way, my 5 year old cousin can do it, you don't need to be good at the game to do it