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Good Roles & Bad Roles [for hosts]

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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2.) Anything, no. Be unable to guarantee even a single result? Yes. In a small, it's much harder to choose two players that will survive two nights and need to be investigated while dodging the theoretical roleblocker (be it scum or jailer) and any night kills flying around assuming that you keep yourself in good enough standing that your results are believable enough that scum can't push a lynch on both you and one of your targets regardless of result. I'm not saying I want to use your comp cop in a small game, so don't give me the "then don't use it line." I don't want to see anyone use it, so challenging it is perfectly valid.

:phone:
 

Gova

I'm goin' for it!
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Yo, I don't think mafia factions should have night kills. Too much reward for little to no skill involved. They should have to work for lynches if they want someone killed like everyone else.

:gova:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Yo, I don't think mafia factions should have night kills. Too much reward for little to no skill involved. They should have to work for lynches if they want someone killed like everyone else.

:gova:
No trolling plz.

:059:
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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I feel trolled by amount of skill involved with a any role designed to work around scum hunting being used as a reason to suggest one of the most rewarding roles in the game. Yes, you do have to work a little harder for Comp Cop, but the role's much higher potential payout for what should be the same amount of risk makes it much more valuable.

:phone:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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I feel trolled by amount of skill involved with a any role designed to work around scum hunting being used as a reason to suggest one of the most rewarding roles in the game. Yes, you do have to work a little harder for Comp Cop, but the role's much higher potential payout for what should be the same amount of risk makes it much more valuable.
Unless you have a RB / Driver + GF / Traitor + Cop Variation [+ Miller] in your game the Cop *is* too powerful. There's still like a 2/3 chance that his results can be taken at face value. And within that 2/3 ratio all the results the cop gets are incredibly valuable because an innocent result is still worth more than a Comp Cop learning about two players not being aligned.

:059:
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Hey I have this suspicion this guy is scummy.
And this other guy too.

Let's CC them.
Oh, same alignment? word.
This right here is almost exactly how we ***** Castlevania BBR so hard.

Scamp quickhammered D1 and was universally scummy, and I was concerned about T-Block, so I CC'd the two.

Aligned. HUEHUEHUE.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Jailer+Cop is already mostly balanced in a basic game. Throw in a godfather on a scum team. I just balanced a cop.
greagh;alkjgl;kwajg

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

no no no


I already fixed the cop role anyway.

Cop ability + severe handicap to the cop. Make the cop give something up, like Gau being unable to vote when he wants to use his ability. Make the cop have a hard choice like forcing him to only investigate the person who hammer votes.

OR

Cut the crap and just change the cop role from a "learns alignment" to "learns something about their role". Learn their last used ability, if they are in a masonry, or other such things. There are so many ways you can manipulate a cop's main function to make a better role, and a plethora of ways you can make the cop role more difficult to use so that it doesn't give such a huge advantage.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Laundry gtfo

What is the most powerful comp cop result in your opinion, Gheb?
The CCs power doesn't depend on what results he gets but on the amount of results he can work with [including flips].

This right here is almost exactly how we ***** Castlevania BBR so hard.

Scamp quickhammered D1 and was universally scummy, and I was concerned about T-Block, so I CC'd the two.

Aligned. HUEHUEHUE.
Bad play gets punished.

Cop ability + severe handicap to the cop. Make the cop give something up, like Gau being unable to vote when he wants to use his ability. Make the cop have a hard choice like forcing him to only investigate the person who hammer votes.

OR

Cut the crap and just change the cop role from a "learns alignment" to "learns something about their role". Learn their last used ability, if they are in a masonry, or other such things. There are so many ways you can manipulate a cop's main function to make a better role, and a plethora of ways you can make the cop role more difficult to use so that it doesn't give such a huge advantage.
:thumbsup:

:059:
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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Yeah because saying "Cop centralizes but it's not a bad role" is a post that allows for major discussion, right?

Moron.

:059:
Centralizing means you gotta build around it, which you do, but if you do the role is fair.

Cops do need attention or they will break a set-up for town if you throw a basic cop without other roles to manage it.

Comp cop is stupid in smalls without a fire and ice like set-up. You link way too many people together.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Gorf

toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
Joined
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Pass me an ounce of whatever you're smoking.

:059:
:cool:

Oh and totally agree with gheb on the cop thing, it's mad dumb when cops have no/too little checks.

I hate blatantly anti town town roles. Like hated townie. Or princess. Those roles are the worst to see that you rolled.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Good bump, the OP needs some fixing.

Warlock and closed Masons are meh roles [I had Masons as bad cuz everybody overused them at that time and it broke games imo], Doc and Comparison Cop are good roles, idk why I had them as meh. Probaby because Comp. Cop is very set-up dependent but it's def a good role and not used enough.

:059:
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

Oriwa Rake. Kaizo ko ni oriwa naru
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Masons are fine it that is used in place for something else.

Personally I prefer lovers.
this x 1000.
I hate when people play poorly as masons (see John's puzzle bobble) but then it's like: LOL MASONS.
Lover's forces you to play townier due to threat of death
 

Gova

I'm goin' for it!
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Lovers force you to play middle of the road.

also I still stand by that post I made up at the top of the page

:gova:
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
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Agree with Gheb on cops, need a good number of counters to the role or it's very likely to become game winning for town.

Masons are like having two innocent children which is ridiculous near end game, but early on it's not -too- powerful.

Nonconfirmed alignment masons is a cool role though albeit a little on the weak side.

After playing Luigi's mansion, I really like Lovers as long as there is some sort of limited protection for them since nothing is worse than being the N1 NK and going into Day 2 with 3 townies gone (assuming town is lynched Day 1 like most games here).

What's Warlock?
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Warlock is an independent role who wins by guessing the correct lynch X amount of times.

:059:
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
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When you say 'lol' online, did you REALLY always laugh out loud?

:phone:
Lol = Ha irl to me. I would say LMAO when I laughed hard because people have to KNOW that I laughed.
 

#HBC | Laundry

Grand Sage of Swag
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:cool:

Oh and totally agree with gheb on the cop thing, it's mad dumb when cops have no/too little checks.

I hate blatantly anti town town roles. Like hated townie. Or princess. Those roles are the worst to see that you rolled.
Generally I use them for two reasons: they're good nerfs to an otherwise strong town and they can be good at causing misdirection to town in the set-up. Others won't agree with me, but Hated Townie, Princess, and Lovers and the like are useful in the right places. You can't splash 'em everywhere though.

Can I mention that I hate the new trend of intentionally trying to trip up townies because it's apparently bad to use claims as methods of scumhunting? It's one thing to make a set-up that is different and contains otherwise odd roles or has good reasons to include a double role but I think it's stupid to have both two Coroners or the like in Luigi's Mansion because I can't see that as anything other than "let's just **** with town by having two blatantly similar roles in here". There are better ways to avoid massclaims turning the game into PoE than that.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Also I'm going to defend my set-up for a second by saying Painter and Weak Coroner were different roles with vastly different purposes
 

#HBC | marshy

wanted for 3rd degree swag
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i am ALL for red herring roles. any tool or approach to setups with the intent of punishing town for tryna outguess the mod through role related guesswork i gotta give the :thumbsup:

but for the sake of discussion in a direction we seemingly both agree on (avoiding poe massclaim ****fests) what are these alternative methods to what i described above that mods can utilize?
 

ranmaru

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Have a simple setup so that there is less incentive to think "Ok we need to figure out the setup, let's mass claim"

or have some Lulzy red hearing setup like Gorf's rap masters of all time* (can't remember if that's the exact name)
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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but for the sake of discussion in a direction we seemingly both agree on (avoiding poe massclaim ****fests) what are these alternative methods to what i described above that mods can utilize?
Using roles that one wouldn't naturally expect to be given to a certain alignment works wonders. Mafia Tracker like you had it in your old Batmanfia game is a fantastic mix-up - totally counter-intuitive, provides a juicy safe-claim, punishes dumbasses for lynching by claim instead of play and is actually quite useful for the scumteam. For Touhou Mafia Ryker and I came up with Mafia Tree Stump, which is actually a lot less insane than you'd probably think.

:059:
 

ranmaru

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AND YOU HAVE A QT TO TALK ALL DAY AND NIGHT

what more would you want in life
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
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Messages
21,181
i am ALL for red herring roles. any tool or approach to setups with the intent of punishing town for tryna outguess the mod through role related guesswork i gotta give the :thumbsup:

but for the sake of discussion in a direction we seemingly both agree on (avoiding poe massclaim ****fests) what are these alternative methods to what i described above that mods can utilize?
Wording in role PMs. I change my victory condition wording every few games and I change the "title" of a role all the time so people don't automatically know what it is they're up against, at least not exactly.

You're a vigilante. We know what that means. You're a gunman. What's that? You're an assassin. What's that? You're a machete-wielding lunatic. What's that?

They can all be vigilantes, it is just up to the mod whether or not they want the world to know on flip EXACTLY what they do or not. It also forces claims to be more direct because if you are an assassin and claim vig and a role cop finds you are an assassin, you'll likely be lynched even if the role is the exact same.

It all depends on the setup. Sometimes mass claims are GOOD and should be designed into the game. Other times they're bad and harshly punish one or both alignments. Red herrings and misdirection should only be used when you want to punish an alignment indirectly; indirect punishment isn't always the best, but it's probably the most subtle and least likely to swing victory to one alignment over the other.
 
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