Golden Sun: The Lost Age (of) Mafia -Game Over! Indy Alex wins!

[#HBC | Kary]

You still should include role safeclaims for scum in a game with no VTs.

I'm interested in hearing the opinion of other players on that, for the record.

If scum can't safely claim VT you should give them something else that's safe to claim. Whether it has to be a good claim is another thing, but they shouldn't be getting lynched straight off of their claim.

/opinions

 

[#HBC | Kary]

nice setup tho Raz. very pretty

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

BSL's was an intentional CC-bait using a character not given to them as a safeclaim.

Yes, and I said as much to Bard when it happened, because I knew his claiming situation must be similar to ours. But what he did isn't the point. Would he have done that if he'd had a claim to hand? Sub-par dedication to the game aside, BSL could have claimed to survive rather than doing what he did, and would've more strongly considered doing so if he'd had a claim at hand that he could be assured would fit the setup, by the mod's estimation if not his own. When you leave the scum with only nameclaims and toss them into the Flavour Sea, they're forced to tread water while they attempt to metagame the mod.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

^The reason I had him claim a CC-bait was BECAUSE we had no idea what was safe and figured we would get more profit from offering the slot up for lynch.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

I take blame for Kantrip lynch.

But dude, **** no on the TCat lynch. I had every reason to assume worst case scenario with her.

I'm talking about the kantrip lynch, drunk posting to derail kantrip actually playing well as town, jeez. T-cat wasn't terrible, it just wasn't as good as ryker was at the time.

THAT ALL SAID...

You can't blame the game being lost solely on the role. Town had things entirely under control until Swiss & Adum died, then some critical mistakes were made. Kantrip's lynch was completely asinine. Rake, I'm seriously disappointed that you bought into the temptation of hammer when Kantrip hadn't been around at all, and I also can't believe you thought Ryker was Towntelling from your gambit. The rest of your play was pretty good, but that was a series of horrible decisions.

Didn't expect or agree with a t-cat policy lynch when you had scum right in front of you in Ryker. Town would have easily won otherwise.

Had Town not had perfect play early-game, we'd probably have seen more cross-fire due to less Townies, and I'd probably be getting some salt from Town. There could've been a really bad position with something silly like 2/2/2/1 with Town essentially ****ed, but who knows. Could only know if I ran it again.

I disagree.

Town made mistakes but this is way under what should be acceptable, it was just way too easy to be the only scum left after one scum group or another had scythed through all the competent town players and could've been any scum faction.

The easiest fix would've been to simply make alex a survivor or drop him, 4 anti-town in a 13 man game is already pushing it.

Swingy is fun! If you don't like it, don't play my games.

I'll make a note to avoid your games in the future, not that I think there's anything wrong with it, it's just not what I enjoy.


Also vote: No mvp

The bardull/nabe slot was the pure beneficiary of the massive number of scum in this game, they had no thread control whatsoever until super late because everyone who was decent and town by that point was dead and town killed more obvious scum while they had decent players available.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Oh ya, the whole "it couldn't be ryker because he wouldn't have sacrificed his only scum-buddy on a cc gambit" was incredibly dumb, about as dumb as the "welp, got lynched, actually town" wine that town drank.

Laundry was dead in the water at that point unless he claimed something dramatic enough to be really open to a counterclaim, it was a smart play. Come on.

 

[Kantrip]

Oh also, I was right on Gheb too. Saying I wasn't doing anything early is still kind of unfair. Most pepole wanted Gheb for a connection to Laundry that didn't exist, I wanted him for his opportunism. His biggest scumtell is when he hops on a wagon because it's easy.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Fair enough you were right on IR (though half the reason the connection developed was because of his crap play and his floating half the game as lynch targets still sticks out like a sore thumb even without the conneciton) , but you versus ridic was sorta terrible.

Don't worry, conspiracy theory kantrip is what makes you such an easy read as town

 

[BarDulL]

Oh ya, the whole "it couldn't be ryker because he wouldn't have sacrificed his only scum-buddy on a cc gambit" was incredibly dumb, about as dumb as the "welp, got lynched, actually town" wine that town drank.

Laundry was dead in the water at that point unless he claimed something dramatic enough to be really open to a counterclaim, it was a smart play. Come on.

Mad.

Let's be real here, if BSL had claimed Jenna or Felix, I don't think people would have been as inclined to chop BSL's head off. It just didn't make sense to have him claim Ivan when the likelihood that Ivan was already in the game was pretty high and that BSL was going to get CC'd on flavor alone. He should have just used the Jenna or Felix claim and claimed Cop if he wanted to be successful in baiting out a Cop CC (if that was the intent), and even if a Cop CC wasn't baited, it's possible and likely that Town would have ran away from his lynch with their tails between their legs because Kevin claimed Miller and no one else would have claimed Cop. It was definitely a misplay.

Edit: All of S&C's posts in post-game can be summed up as rage and discomfort because they lost. Get over it n00bs.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Jenna or felix don't match with the flavor for cop bardull, that's the reason why Ivan was used,

I think you're misremembering d1 if you think everyone wasn't pretty much itching for the hammer on him, and it's not like ryker didn't already state that it was a CC gambit. WL horribly misplayed his slot.


I think we're justified in being a little salty given that it was a pretty damn perfect game on our end and we managed to lose

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've never been a fan of 5 scum in a 13 man like OS does a lot.

But I like how this one worked with the two factions.

 

[BarDulL]

Jenna or felix don't match with the flavor for cop bardull, that's the reason why Ivan was used,

I think you're misremembering d1 if you think everyone wasn't pretty much itching for the hammer on him, and it's not like ryker didn't already state that it was a CC gambit. WL horribly misplayed his slot.


I think we're justified in being a little salty given that it was a pretty damn perfect game on our end and we managed to lose

Nope, you should check out what happened after his claim of Ivan went down. People started looking elsewhere, including our slot.

I'm also surprised that you're postulating that "Felix wouldn't have fit the flavor" when no one could have known whether or not it would have made sense except for the mod. Heck, that's the exact same reason why we were able to get away with our Piers claim of commuter.

I DO know that Felix was the main character in the second game though, and giving him some kind of investigative ability wouldn't be outside of the norm. I don't know much about Jenna, but either way I would have cooked up something viable before allowing myself to be susceptible to flavor claim shenanigans.

I'm not saying I don't get the mentality, but the entire claim falls apart when you stick Ivan on it instead of Felix or Jenna. Ivan could have literally been anything, not necessarily Cop, which is exactly what ended up happening. The trade ended up being literally fruitless in all aspects because Rake was a neighborizer. It was just too risky.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Actually the flavor was pretty easy to interpret, RR being a mercury adapt, the existance of alex and a number of other setup points I picked up on very easily. Felix gets no investigative abilities of any kind, only jupiter adapts have the ability to use mindread and reveal.

The claim would've raised so many red flags it would've made the UN look colorless and I would've insta-lynched off it. Swiss not knowing the flavour and already hating WL would've trusted my judgement.

That's why making a claim fit with the flavour is so important to making the claim convincing.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

It may have been risky but at that point it was their best option. Myself and swiss calculated that he was in hot enough water that a chance of getting a CC was better then the not getting anything according to his scummate and it was a decision ryker would've made, we turned out to be correct because it was a decision ryker made.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh also, I was right on Gheb too. Saying I wasn't doing anything early is still kind of unfair. Most pepole wanted Gheb for a connection to Laundry that didn't exist, I wanted him for his opportunism. His biggest scumtell is when he hops on a wagon because it's easy.

If you omgus me every ****ing game chances are that you're going to be right once or twice - especially with my rate of getting scum.

 

[Swiss]

Firstly, all postgame has been Adum not me.

Secondly, Bardull in so far as I can tell you won not just through good play but by a monumental **** up by town. This **** happened because I died.

I died because I did not forsee a strongman, I knew RR was Doc, I knew BD was townie, I knew I was solid townread, the only way I could die was via bypasses. I sat here in silence for 15 minutes to make the call not to commute. This is why town lost the game, from there my reads were disregarded, bad calls were made and you grasped the situation well.

However, if you look at the turning point - my death - you had nothing to do with it. Had I survived Ryker's kill you would never have removed me from the game and Ryker, then you or Tcat would rapidly have followed. The turning point of the game, the single most important aspect wich you had to influence, had nothing to do with you. I'd ease off on the arrogance until you deserve it. If you did however, pin Ryker as strongman, a read I myself couldn't make - and made the call he'd shoot me, then you fully deserve your win.

Rake your play was full of empty bravado and disappoints me. You failed to analyse plays and instead spent your time trying to look clever.

Ryker I sincerely hope you didn't afk to avoid me lynching you. That would sadden me.

Still feel bad for Gheb.

I don't like the set up personally, but I dislike swingy games. No comments on the balance since I don't have time to run the numbers.

Raz thanks for modding, but please don't get involved in it again when I'm pushing for reads because it taints the game.

GG all. I'll be inactive again for a while now so will try to /in a new game in a month or so.

If anyone wants comments on their play let me know.

 

[Swiss]

And Bardull, Adum pinned the flavour and name claims with alarming accuracy - he mentioned these all to me on Skype & on our QT.

 

[BarDulL]

Firstly, all postgame has been Adum not me.

Secondly, Bardull in so far as I can tell you won not just through good play but by a monumental **** up by town. This **** happened because I died.

I died because I did not forsee a strongman, I knew RR was Doc, I knew BD was townie, I knew I was solid townread, the only way I could die was via bypasses. I sat here in silence for 15 minutes to make the call not to commute. This is why town lost the game, from there my reads were disregarded, bad calls were made and you grasped the situation well.

However, if you look at the turning point - my death - you had nothing to do with it. Had I survived Ryker's kill you would never have removed me from the game and Ryker, then you or Tcat would rapidly have followed. The turning point of the game, the single most important aspect wich you had to influence, had nothing to do with you. I'd ease off on the arrogance until you deserve it. If you did however, pin Ryker as strongman, a read I myself couldn't make - and made the call he'd shoot me, then you fully deserve your win.

I was just messing since he was heavily salty/calling me dumb. No arrogance here; we sacked pretty hard against your slot; by that point it would have been near irrefutably impossible to lynch you, let alone kill you. We DID have Geyser, which we were contemplating using, but figured that you would be protected and opted to save it later into the game. We had to rely on blue scum to be our saving grace, which Ryker was, but we knew that if you were Town, you were blue scum's bane of existence. We couldn't heavily rely on blue scum to do the deed, we could only hope. In that regard, I can't say that I was fully in control of the situation at all times. It's hard to actually accomplish staying in control of everything though because there are going to be times where set up speculation will only take you so far and you'll only end up staring into an abyss of what could or couldn't happen. In that regard, I don't necessarily blame you for not commuting because everyone and their mother had every reason to be protecting you, but technically you could have taken the safety measure as well and opted to use it. Technically speaking, if blue scum was Ryker, that Night 3 was the night he had to kill you. I don't know what I would have done in your shoes though since I can only theory craft it from there, but what ended up happening ended up happening I guess.

 

[BarDulL]

And Bardull, Adum pinned the flavour and name claims with alarming accuracy - he mentioned these all to me on Skype & on our QT.

My point is that even if he pinned it, it doesn't necessarily make his portrayal of the facts substantiated. I mean, trying to pin the set up equates to meta'ing the mod; flavor is a good indication of how things work, but we're still staring into an abyss of possibility and not necessarily a lit cove of facts.

 

[Kantrip]

If you omgus me every ****ing game chances are that you're going to be right once or twice - especially with my rate of getting scum.

You sound salty.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I underestimated how much nabe was there, but at the same time you won by being lower priority then the other scum. There was only one town before you in priority and only 2 town in total got lynched, both after we died. That is, a tad unreasonable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My point is that even if he pinned it, it doesn't necessarily make his portrayal of the facts substantiated. I mean, trying to pin the set up equates to meta'ing the mod; flavor is a good indication of how things work, but we're still staring into an abyss of possibility and not necessarily a lit cove of facts.

The point is it would make the claim look fishy to the point that pretty much any reasonably strong townie (of which there were several at that point) would recognize that it didn't match the element's flavor at all when I pointed it out which makes it a poor claim. Making your claim fit the flavour is incredibly important to making it convincing, which it required to actually draw out the cop.

 

[Swiss]

I was just messing since he was heavily salty/calling me dumb. No arrogance here; we sacked pretty hard against your slot; by that point it would have been near irrefutably impossible to lynch you, let alone kill you. We DID have Geyser, which we were contemplating using, but figured that you would be protected and opted to save it later into the game. We had to rely on blue scum to be our saving grace, which Ryker was, but we knew that if you were Town, you were blue scum's bane of existence. We couldn't heavily rely on blue scum to do the deed, we could only hope. In that regard, I can't say that I was fully in control of the situation at all times. It's hard to actually accomplish staying in control of everything though because there are going to be times where set up speculation will only take you so far and you'll only end up staring into an abyss of what could or couldn't happen. In that regard, I don't necessarily blame you for not commuting because everyone and their mother had every reason to be protecting you, but technically you could have taken the safety measure as well and opted to use it. Technically speaking, if blue scum was Ryker, that Night 3 was the night he had to kill you. I don't know what I would have done in your shoes though since I can only theory craft it from there, but what ended up happening ended up happening I guess.

Indeed. I've run it over & over in my head and I simply can't see my call not to commute as being wrong, placed in the same situation I'd make the same call again. Clearly in the same situation I would be wrong again. There was no information to suggest a strongman and I was correct on my Doc RR and Town Bus Driver calls.
Having said this, I also stand by N3 being the most critical of almost any game and should have heeded my own rule. Practice what you preach, Swiss.

Also, Adum's flavour analysis came from analysing Raz as well as the game, he took many factors into account - it impressed me.

Adum appears salty because our reads were approaching perfect, our reads were acted on and proved correct - then disregarded for obtuse reasons as soon as we died. It is frustrating to see a won game thrown through ignorance - especially when your (accurate) reads have the weight of a dead townSwiss behind them.

You played the game correctly after my death and this should not be overlooked - people tend to hail people as good for 'big plays' and gambits - and forget solid play and solid players.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I really did enjoy this hydra too, my town-reading was nigh-perfect and because swiss trusted those and combined them with his own scumreads and provided some weight to back me up we managed to get a perfect scumlynch record while we were alive. We work really well together and hopefully his load eases off soon.

Like seriously, we had 90% of the townies eliminated as suspects by the middle of d2.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Raziek

Here's my 0.02 on the setup: through personal experience I've come to learn that it's not wise to make a setup PR heavy when you have 3 factions or more. It's tempting for a mod and my impression is that you are an idealistic kind of person so I'm not surprised that you're trying to push for something extraordinary but in order to run great games consistently being strictly realistic has worked out better for me. If you want to maximize your chances to run a PR heavy game to great acclaim then it's good to have a very solid and stable setup, ideally with only two factions. If you want to run a game with lots of factions to great acclaim then your best shot at doing so is by using as many VTs as possible and only as many PRs as necessary.

If you have a setup with many factions and only PRs then there might be a chance that it will turn out to become a truly extraordinary experience, but it's a slim chance imo. There's at least an equal chance that the setup will just fall apart as the game takes its course. You have to be aware of that risk if you run a setup like that. And most of all you always have to keep the PLAYERS in mind and ask yourself whether this kind of setup will be a fun experience even if it doesn't play out the way you envision it to play out under ideal circumstances. I can understand PJB's dissatisfaction and I can equally relate to Ryker's dissatisfaction with the setup. Of course, the whole game could have played out differently had X not happened but I think it's more important to prevent such scenarios from occuring in the first place and that would be your job. If you don't do that you will always run the risk of a game turning out poorly and that's just not a good experience - neither for the mod, nor for the players.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Nope, you should check out what happened after his claim of Ivan went down. People started looking elsewhere, including our slot.

I'm also surprised that you're postulating that "Felix wouldn't have fit the flavor" when no one could have known whether or not it would have made sense except for the mod. Heck, that's the exact same reason why we were able to get away with our Piers claim of commuter.

I DO know that Felix was the main character in the second game though, and giving him some kind of investigative ability wouldn't be outside of the norm. I don't know much about Jenna, but either way I would have cooked up something viable before allowing myself to be susceptible to flavor claim shenanigans.

I'm not saying I don't get the mentality, but the entire claim falls apart when you stick Ivan on it instead of Felix or Jenna. Ivan could have literally been anything, not necessarily Cop, which is exactly what ended up happening. The trade ended up being literally fruitless in all aspects because Rake was a neighborizer. It was just too risky.

Why in the world would we burn our Felix claim on a slot that was definitely not making it to end game.

The goal was never to have the slot live. The goal was to gain as much information as possible from him dying.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Ryker I sincerely hope you didn't afk to avoid me lynching you. That would sadden me.

AFKed because my scummate was in hot water on Day 1. All other inactivity was due to fast day phases and unfortunate V/LA timing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Would like to point out that this is the second time ryker said this, I was just explaining why it was the best way to deal with a bad situation. It was clever, too bad for him all he drew out was the neighborizer claim.


Speaking of which, ryker we should hydra sometime.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Should.

Also, that neighborizer claim was also really damn helpful.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Should.

Also, that neighborizer claim was also really damn helpful.

Cool lemme know which game you're up for it, these days I pretty much solely hydra.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

^That. I need someone to keep me active or the game can rapidly pass me by.

I'd play with you in Nabe's small if you're game.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Ya that's cool.

Me I need people with goood thread control due to my Cassandra tendancies. I freely admit that the only thing going for me in terms of thread control is I'm very difficult to lynch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Firstly, all postgame has been Adum not me.

Secondly, Bardull in so far as I can tell you won not just through good play but by a monumental **** up by town. This **** happened because I died.

I died because I did not forsee a strongman, I knew RR was Doc, I knew BD was townie, I knew I was solid townread, the only way I could die was via bypasses. I sat here in silence for 15 minutes to make the call not to commute. This is why town lost the game, from there my reads were disregarded, bad calls were made and you grasped the situation well.

However, if you look at the turning point - my death - you had nothing to do with it. Had I survived Ryker's kill you would never have removed me from the game and Ryker, then you or Tcat would rapidly have followed. The turning point of the game, the single most important aspect wich you had to influence, had nothing to do with you. I'd ease off on the arrogance until you deserve it. If you did however, pin Ryker as strongman, a read I myself couldn't make - and made the call he'd shoot me, then you fully deserve your win.

Rake your play was full of empty bravado and disappoints me. You failed to analyse plays and instead spent your time trying to look clever.

Ryker I sincerely hope you didn't afk to avoid me lynching you. That would sadden me.

Still feel bad for Gheb.

I don't like the set up personally, but I dislike swingy games. No comments on the balance since I don't have time to run the numbers.

Raz thanks for modding, but please don't get involved in it again when I'm pushing for reads because it taints the game.

GG all. I'll be inactive again for a while now so will try to /in a new game in a month or so.

If anyone wants comments on their play let me know.

Other than Kantrip how would you handle TCat, Ryker, Furio situation?

I faked the no trusting you part to secretly crumb I was doc to you, but did I make it too obvious on d2? D3 I made it very obvious but I was trying to take a bullet instead.

Also I think I might have roleblocked the commute if I targetted you.

 

[Raziek]

Warp and Retreat were at the top of NAR, couldn't be blocked.

 

[Kantrip]

@Swiss, or anyone else: Comments on my play would be good actually. Don't waste your time telling me how bad the early stuff with rid**** was, because I've already learned from that. Mostly I want to know about my later play and how I could have done better to get town in the right direction.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also shoutouts to Ryu for actually taking responsibility after making mistakes. You're beyond 99% of the people right now!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm pretty satisfied with my play this game. One of my better games, for sure, but I wouldn't mind hearing some critique from Swiss (or anyone else that thinks they can contribute).

Still salty that it took 2 days longer than it was supposed to for Ryker to die. Why'd you guys have to go and lynch Kantrip while I was gone? Why? We would've had 4 scum in a row, and it would've been beautiful.

 

[Raziek]

I'm going to think on it a bit more, but I'm probably not going to award an MvP for this game.

If Town had won it would be S&C without question.

Also, I've decided on the flavor for my next set-up. It will be Blazblue: Chrono Phantasmafia, and will be decidedly less swingy than this one, at least based on the ideas I have floating around in my head at the moment.

 

[BarDulL]

I'm going to think on it a bit more, but I'm probably not going to award an MvP for this game.

If Town had won it would be S&C without question.

Also, I've decided on the flavor for my next set-up. It will be Blazblue: Chrono Phantasmafia, and will be decidedly less swingy than this one, at least based on the ideas I have floating around in my head at the moment.

I'm kind of indifferent; I see both sides. Literally, EVERYTHING went the way it needed to. I'd argue that us getting Kantrip out of the way was solely our doing and the reason why we won the game once S&C was dead, but that's the thing: our hands were clean of S&C's blood. We basically won by timeout predominantly as a result of scum getting seriously hard bodied by Town, not by us. I'm not sure how things would have panned out otherwise, but there's no real way of knowing. Although, we -did- convince Adum/Swiss that we were Town (albeit moved down to null because of our slot's switch to IR after my verbal predicament with S&C.) Ryker had us as Town in-thread, but I wouldn't know if that was a legitimate read or not since he was scum (but technically he felt it was a safe play to make?) I mean, really, everyone thought we were safe prior to us winning. Guess it just depends on how you look at it.