Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

-UP TILT Shoryuken IS DI-able for the fat king. PLEASE LAB AND LEARN GUYS.

You can SDI out of Ryu's light utilt. Not sure if you can do it fast enough and get away from a True SRK in time, though. Need to lab this.

Which direction do you need to DI in? Just out and away or is it weird like ZSS' upb?

 

[Cronoc]

Hey guys, I cannot believe that no one on this character forum has discussed the Cloud matchup. What do you guys think of it? As a Bowser main, I personally have a tough time with Dedede and gordo traps, but Cloud has the tools to wall Dedede out and reflect Gordos with standing/short hopped neutral b's. I think this is an absolutely terrible matchup for Dedede, gordos get stuffed, air approaches get stuffed, Cloud has huge range and long active frames on his aerials... I'd love to hear if you guys agree or disagree.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Hey guys, I cannot believe that no one on this character forum has discussed the Cloud matchup. What do you guys think of it? As a Bowser main, I personally have a tough time with Dedede and gordo traps, but Cloud has the tools to wall Dedede out and reflect Gordos with standing/short hopped neutral b's. I think this is an absolutely terrible matchup for Dedede, gordos get stuffed, air approaches get stuffed, Cloud has huge range and long active frames on his aerials... I'd love to hear if you guys agree or disagree.

I strongly dislike it. It could just be that I don't know the MU very yet but yeah. Cloud is faster than us, and has better frame data. Which isn't anything new, but the thing that makes this MU horrible is that, yes, he completely outranges us. Which, with all three of those elements combined, makes it stupid hard to do just about anything.

It's not as bad as Sonic, or ZSS, since gimping him is doable and he gets comboed nicely, but I can see it as being somewhere in the Top 10 worst MUs.

It's bad.

 

[Soul Train]

Hey guys, I cannot believe that no one on this character forum has discussed the Cloud matchup. What do you guys think of it?

How to Win as Cloud Against D3:
1. Run away
2. Charge limit break while D3 lumbers towards you
3. Repeat, achieve limit
4. Use now even better mobility to bait and punish the endlag ANY of D3's moves with killing limit attack
5. Repeat, win.

Basically what Jimmy said. Not as bad as the ZSS "I can't let go of shield OH WAIT CRAP", but it's not good at all. When played right, as per usual with D3 matchups.

 

[Cronoc]

JimmyTheCaterpillar and Soul Train thanks for the responses. I suspected I knew a bad matchup when I saw it. You have my sympathies, even though as a Bowser I've had it up to here with gordos...

My strategy as Cloud thus far has been to mostly ignore limit, I run away and wall out with Cloud's projectile while the D3 player figures out that gordos are no bueno, then figures out air approaches are no bueno (though I don't think the jumped neutral b is impossible to airdodge), then finally go in for dtilt to uair strings once they approach on the ground. A simple strategy (though I'm leaving out some situational stuff) but I haven't found a Dedede yet that's beaten it. Generally I get rid of the limit once I have it because I want to be free to spam projectiles, and because the limit neutral b pops on gordos it's not a whole lot more useful than the uncharged one. I could probably do more with it.

It seems to me the typical gordo edge trap doesn't work as well on Cloud because he can throw a hitbox way over the ledge and often hit the gordo before snapping if he wants to (I imagine D3 players are used to something similar when fighting Shulk)... I think timing an fsmash hitting the ledgeto coincide with Cloud's up b (like many characters) would really help clear stocks in this case, but I don't know how much of the hammer goes below the ledge. Before I theory craft too much for a character I don't play I'll get out of here, thanks for confirming this for me anyhow... I hate to say it, but I am so done with playing this match as Bowser. My apologies to any of you if we meet online ingame...

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

JimmyTheCaterpillar and Soul Train thanks for the responses. I suspected I knew a bad matchup when I saw it. You have my sympathies, even though as a Bowser I've had it up to here with gordos...

My strategy as Cloud thus far has been to mostly ignore limit, I run away and wall out with Cloud's projectile while the D3 player figures out that gordos are no bueno, then figures out air approaches are no bueno (though I don't think the jumped neutral b is impossible to airdodge), then finally go in for dtilt to uair strings once they approach on the ground. A simple strategy (though I'm leaving out some situational stuff) but I haven't found a Dedede yet that's beaten it. Generally I get rid of the limit once I have it because I want to be free to spam projectiles, and because the limit neutral b pops on gordos it's not a whole lot more useful than the uncharged one. I could probably do more with it.

It seems to me the typical gordo edge trap doesn't work as well on Cloud because he can throw a hitbox way over the ledge and often hit the gordo before snapping if he wants to (I imagine D3 players are used to something similar when fighting Shulk)... I think timing an fsmash hitting the ledgeto coincide with Cloud's up b (like many characters) would really help clear stocks in this case, but I don't know how much of the hammer goes below the ledge. Before I theory craft too much for a character I don't play I'll get out of here, thanks for confirming this for me anyhow... I hate to say it, but I am so done with playing this match as Bowser. My apologies to any of you if we meet online ingame...

I don't understand why you would ignore Limit. Finishing Touch kills Dedede at like 60%, and that's something only a few characters can do.

And lol I'm not sure why you'd apologize. You should only do that if you play **** ***** ***** ass **** ZSS. Like I said, Cloud is doable. It's just hard doable. But Dededes are no strangers to seemingly impossible odds.

 

[Cronoc]

I don't understand why you would ignore Limit. Finishing Touch kills Dedede at like 60%, and that's something only a few characters can do.

And lol I'm not sure why you'd apologize. You should only do that if you play **** ***** ***** *** **** ZSS. Like I said, Cloud is doable. It's just hard doable. But Dededes are no strangers to seemingly impossible odds.

I've mostly been playing the long game, switching up what was working by trying for a finishing touch would put me at unnecessary risk. I probably should do more with it, but it goes against my safe, "chippin away at em" strategy.

I apologize because I hate when people counterpick characters against me as Bowser (often Sonic, ZSS or Dedede for some reason) with the intention of cheesing me to death. Which is what I'm doing in this one particular matchup. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I've mostly been playing the long game, switching up what was working by trying for a finishing touch would put me at unnecessary risk. I probably should do more with it, but it goes against my safe, "chippin away at em" strategy.

I apologize because I hate when people counterpick characters against me as Bowser (often Sonic, ZSS or Dedede for some reason) with the intention of cheesing me to death. Which is what I'm doing in this one particular matchup. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's a competitive game. You play to win. It's understandable. Anyone who gets cheesed off by that is pretty ignorant.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

JimmyTheCaterpillar and Soul Train thanks for the responses. I suspected I knew a bad matchup when I saw it. You have my sympathies, even though as a Bowser I've had it up to here with gordos...

Hate to be that guy, but

Gordos shouldn't be a problem for you as Bowser unless it's For Glory/netplay. Bowser has a TON of safe options to negate Gordos carelessly thrown out from neutral.

What you should be worrying about is if Dedede actually hits you and starts abusing the fact that you have a wide hurtbox. Considering range and disjoints, I'd say that's a little more concerning

Smooth Criminal

 

[Cronoc]

Hate to be that guy, but

Gordos shouldn't be a problem for you as Bowser unless it's For Glory/netplay. Bowser has a TON of safe options to negate Gordos carelessly thrown out from neutral.

What you should be worrying about is if Dedede actually hits you and starts abusing the fact that you have a wide hurtbox. Considering range and disjoints, I'd say that's a little more concerning

Smooth Criminal

It's online. I only know of one D3 player in my local scene and he's semi-retired. It's especially annoying in for glory with no platforms. The rate at which I encounter D3's there is far above what I would expect for such a character, but it is what it is. This is what I get to deal with because I play at odd times when Anther's Ladder is dead.

 

[Krubby]

I'm gonna be representing the triple D at Genesis 3 and my pool has one of the best Ryu in the world, 9B, in my pool. I'm gonna practice this matchup intensively and would like advice for what I should do to show that we can still hold our own. Big D is in the pool next to me, imagine if two DDD's won their pool in a row!

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I'm gonna be representing the triple D at Genesis 3 and my pool has one of the best Ryu in the world, 9B, in my pool. I'm gonna practice this matchup intensively and would like advice for what I should do to show that we can still hold our own. Big D is in the pool next to me, imagine if two DDD's won their pool in a row!

Ayyy we actually had a mini-discussion about this not too long ago on the 7th page of this thread. Here are the informative posts.

So I did a spontaneous write-up of everything I could possibly think of in my experience against. It was on the Discord chat so unfortunately I couldn't copy/paste it so I screencapped it. Tell me what you think and hopefully it helps out a bit.

-If you sweetspot the ledge while scaling battlefield dsmash will hit you 100%
-If you sweetspot the ledge while not scalling battlefield, dsmash can also hit you, just so much less likely.
-If you sweespot straight up on smashville, you are safe.
-If you scale and or sweetspot FD, you are safe

-UP TILT Shoryuken IS DI-able for the fat king. PLEASE LAB AND LEARN GUYS.
-jab shoryuken is not. you should die from this and only this

Luckily, this is one of the few top tier MUs that are totally possible for Dedede to win. Good luck at the tournament!

 

[Deleted member]

Messed around with redoing that matchup chart I made for Dedede a while back.

What do you guys think overall? For the Miis, it's assuming any set/weight is allowed.

 

[Soul Train]

Messed around with redoing that matchup chart I made for Dedede a while back.

What do you guys think overall? For the Miis, it's assuming any set/weight is allowed.

Honestly, due to the character's mobility, frame data, and inability to kill safely, D3's matchups can pretty easily be determined with a two easy questions lol

1. Is the opponent faster than D3, and/or do they have a projectile? If yes: it's a minimum 60:40.
2. Is the opponent big and fat? If yes: minimum 50:50.

But I'll be specific. All of this is assuming intelligent players, not FG scrubs. My revisions:

DK has a solid edge over D3. Few DKs know how to play the matchup, but his mobility, frame data, and kill potential is incredible compared to D3's. 55:45, maybe worse once people learn this matchup.
Charizard matchup is even, or 55:45 in Zard's favor (better mobility, better kill options, faster attacks)
Greninja wins 60:40 every time. His mobility alone allows him to camp and punish D3 easily. Most just haven't played many good Greninjas; I live near an excellent one.
Falcon is nowhere near even. Not even close. It's a solid 60:40, maybe worse. As many have said earlier in this thread, the Falcon just has to be patient, then his speed allows him to punish any button D3 pushes. Go watch Blur vs. Jdawg, and you'll see what I mean. Patient Falcon > Patient D3.
Villager isn't as bad at you'd think. He has a harder time finishing D3 off, and struggles in our Ftilt range. 60:40.
Shulk is even, maybe 55:45 against us.
The Pits aren't even; they can camp us, then combo and kill better. 55:45
Mewtwo is probably even. This one's hard to say - if he was heavier I'd agree with 55:45 - but D3 punishes him so well.
Roy, Lucas, and Ryu are 55:45. All have far better mobility and can far more safely kill us.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, due to the character's mobility, frame data, and inability to kill safely, D3's matchups can pretty easily be determined with a two easy questions lol

1. Is the opponent faster than D3, and/or do they have a projectile? If yes: it's a minimum 60:40.
2. Is the opponent big and fat? If yes: minimum 50:50.

But I'll be specific. All of this is assuming intelligent players, not FG scrubs. My revisions:

DK has a solid edge over D3. Few DKs know how to play the matchup, but his mobility, frame data, and kill potential is incredible compared to D3's. 55:45, maybe worse once people learn this matchup.
Charizard matchup is even, or 55:45 in Zard's favor (better mobility, better kill options, faster attacks)
Greninja wins 60:40 every time. His mobility alone allows him to camp and punish D3 easily. Most just haven't played many good Greninjas; I live near an excellent one.
Falcon is nowhere near even. Not even close. It's a solid 60:40, maybe worse. As many have said earlier in this thread, the Falcon just has to be patient, then his speed allows him to punish any button D3 pushes. Go watch Blur vs. Jdawg, and you'll see what I mean. Patient Falcon > Patient D3.
Villager isn't as bad at you'd think. He has a harder time finishing D3 off, and struggles in our Ftilt range. 60:40.
Shulk is even, maybe 55:45 against us.
The Pits aren't even; they can camp us, then combo and kill better. 55:45
Mewtwo is probably even. This one's hard to say - if he was heavier I'd agree with 55:45 - but D3 punishes him so well.
Roy, Lucas, and Ryu are 55:45. All have far better mobility and can far more safely kill us.

All fair points. I see what you're getting at with DK, an example would be DKWill getting thrown around like a ragdoll by Girthquake since he had little to no experience with the MU whatsoever. Then we switch to DKBill and he plays the MU almost perfectly. DK could also just play lame and space out with bairs and D3 can't really do much, and Ding-Dong is dumb on Battlefield/T&C.

I still believe Zard is even. We space him out relatively well (that damn neck of his helps us so much), plus we're mostly resilient to up throw kills thanks to Dedede's amazing vertical endurance. The only time Zard will ever get a safe-ish kill on us is through sweetspotted ftilt or sweetspotted back air, and the latter has egregious landing lag. Not to mention we can also abuse his terrible traction and OoS game. Zard also lacks an answer to spacing with back air and ftilt, and up air juggles are very effective against him overall. The move even beats Rock Smash.

Haven't fought any super good Greninjas, so I guess I'd have to do that first before giving a proper opinion on this MU.

Falcon's odd for me. Most of the Falcons I've played are super aggressive rather then patient/defensive, and I end up punishing them for it. Key's not to use Gordos against him at midrange thanks to his jab being able to reflect them back easily, and trying to recover as safely and possible and never lose your ledge invincibility vs. him. He's also reasonably easy to edgeguard thanks to his meme recovery, but that's a disadvantage he has in every MU so it probably doesn't mean much. That Blur vs. Jdawg set was brutal though.... brrr. Alhough I feel like the MU is more tolerable to play on somewhere like Battlefield where Dedede has more room to breathe and move around.

Villager is bad. Really bad. He camps and pressures us to absolute hell, and his kill options aren't that sparse either despite having laggy smashes and a laggy grab. Fsmash can be used against us while the armor for Super Dedede Jump wears off (though the Villager would need to have insane timing to do this, or the Dedede recovers too low), and up air and up smash are surprisingly fast KO moves on us onstage.

I can see Shulk being moreso even, slightly advantageous too. Even if he has worse killing options than us, he has better crossups thanks to his Arts and better range too to space us out. Pits are still even imo. None of their kill moves are safe besides tipper ftilt, bair or fthrow. Their smashes are fast but aren't safe on shield at all.

Roy has nothing safe in his toolkit besides nair and despite his power and speed, he's still combo food and again has meme recovery. He's not as much of a threat to us as Falcon, plus we're probably not gonna allow Roy to get close to us to hit us with his sweetspotted attacks thanks to our spacing tools and superior disjoints. He's a glass cannon, but we can break him.

Lucas probably was even before the grab buff, but I can see it in his favor now. Although I again disagree, he can't even really kill safely either. All his smashes besides fsmash are bad moves, up air is hard to land, and forward air doesn't do much vs. us unless we're offstage or the edge of the stage. We're probably not gonna die until he gets us with bthrow at the ledge or a raw uthrow.

Mewtwo is utmost definitely in his favor after the buffs, his toolkit counters ours very efficiently. He has a reliable reflector, excellent recovery with ways to mix it up, a nair that allows him to get grab/tilt/smash followups if he interrupts it on the ground, and good spacing tools in the form of back air, that forward air of his is ridiculous as well. It combos into itself at low percents, and has great KOing power. Even despite his low weight, Mewtwo's defense game is excellent and beats ours. Hell, the Mewtwo can just play lame and spam Shadow Balls everytime Dedede attempts to throw out a Gordo and it ends up being effective. So annoying.

Ryu's the only top tier we have a solid chance against I feel, like JimmyTheCaterpillar has talked about before. I've fought reasonably good Ryus (not exceptional ones though, like Greninja), so I'd probably need more insight on it too.

 

[Soul Train]

So in case anyone hasn't realized this yet: holy... got some serious buffs and is actually good now, guys. A definite 60:40 against D3. He destroys us at pretty much all ranges, out maneuvers, and even kills early. His Fair is SO FAST and completely safe when he rises with it.

What I'm trying to say is, I found a dude on FG last night, had a great connection, and ended up playing for two hours. Not that I'm incredible, but I only won twice. Don't you hate that feeling x_x

 

[Deleted member]

So in case anyone hasn't realized this yet: holy... got some serious buffs and is actually good now, guys. A definite 60:40 against D3. He destroys us at pretty much all ranges, out maneuvers, and even kills early. His Fair is SO FAST and completely safe when he rises with it.

What I'm trying to say is, I found a dude on FG last night, had a great connection, and ended up playing for two hours. Not that I'm incredible, but I only won twice. Don't you hate that feeling x_x

That's what I just said in my above post, yo. Mewtwo is just outright scary now. He beats us so damn hard.

 

[Soul Train]

That's what I just said in my above post, yo. Mewtwo is just outright scary now. He beats us so damn hard.

Yes you did lol. I just hadn't...experienced anything quite like that. I've played good Mewtwos pre-patch, but lord the game is changed so much for them now. I could draw up a threat zone comparison for them compared to us and it would be scary.

 

[Flawed]

Villager is bad. Really bad. He camps and pressures us to absolute hell, and his kill options aren't that sparse either despite having laggy smashes and a laggy grab. Fsmash can be used against us while the armor for Super Dedede Jump wears off (though the Villager would need to have insane timing to do this, or the Dedede recovers too low), and up air and up smash are

pretty sure villager bowling ball doesn't care about up b super armor at all

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Do you guys have any tips for fighting Fox? Because that character is unfortunately common around me and I frequently lose tournament sets to a Fox.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you guys have any tips for fighting Fox? Because that character is unfortunately common around me and I frequently lose tournament sets to a Fox.

Don't use Dedede in the MU. Seriously, don't. I've lost to Fox many times in tournaments before I realized using Dedede vs. Fox was futile. It's just as pointless as using him against ZSS.

I see you have Kirby as one of your other characters, he's a character that is able to outpunish Fox in neutral and be able to play good footsies with him. He also has a 0-72% on Fox. Yoshi is a very good Fox counterpick too.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Don't use Dedede in the MU. Seriously, don't. I've lost to Fox many times in tournaments before I realized using Dedede vs. Fox was futile. It's just as pointless as using him against ZSS.

I see you have Kirby as one of your other characters, he's a character that is able to outpunish Fox in neutral and be able to play good footsies with him. He also has a 0-72% on Fox. Yoshi is a very good Fox counterpick too.

Hmm, that sounds pretty cool. I have never used Kirby outside of friendlies, but I would probably still do better with him than with DDD vs Fox. I will need to look up some Kirby combos though, since all I know is D-air into grab/D-smash, and F-throw into F-air.

I tried using Sheik against fox last time I faced one in tournament and I did worse against the Fox as Sheik than I did with DDD, but it was probably just due to the Fox's unfamiliarity with the DDD matchup. Even my mediocre Sheik covers Sonic and Mega Man quite well though, and I'm lucky enough that nobody around me uses ZSS.

 

[MioTinto]

What are your thoughts on the Corrin matchup? I get the feeling they might be a very potent threat. Not as bad as Cloud, but they can still mess us up pretty majorly. It seems like their projectile can combo into their up special, which might be really problematic if the up special has properties similar to that of ZSS. And those attacks involving their weird construction tape cone leg are just ridiculous in range and kill power.
Bayo is at least manageable, even though she could use some ending lag on her smash attacks.

 

[Putuk]

It's sorta hard to tell how the new matchups are. So far I've only been able to fight some pretty mediocre ones on For Glory.
However Corn sure seems a lot more threatening than Bayo.

Sure, Bayo can combo you around a bunch, but she seems to die at pretty early %s.

Corns range rivals ours, but they have the great upside that they don't have to wait 10 years for a fSmash to actually come out.

 

[SalsaSavant]

The most important matchup we need to discuss...sassy lounge crouches. Does Bayonetta have us beat?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

The most important matchup we need to discuss...sassy lounge crouches. Does Bayonetta have us beat?

Never laughed so hard at a BBS post before in my life.

 

[Putuk]

The most important matchup we need to discuss...sassy lounge crouches. Does Bayonetta have us beat?

No, we take up more of the screen.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

The most important matchup we need to discuss...sassy lounge crouches. Does Bayonetta have us beat?

I suggest that in order to best judge this matchup, we arrange a crew battle where each side sends their five highest ranking memers and we see which side can last the longest.

 

[SalsaSavant]

No, we take up more of the screen.

So our beauty is seen more!

I suggest that in order to best judge this matchup, we arrange a crew battle where each side sends their five highest ranking memers and we see which side can last the longest.

This sounds like exactly what we need to do. The sexy factor may be too much for some of the more sensitive people in the community though...

 

[Doctor Troggy]

Regarding the taunt match up for Dedede vs Bayo, I'd say they have equal amounts of pure style, but D3 outclasses her in taunt length and resulting saltiness from the other player.

Anyways, I have a question. I'm aware that Dedede is trash against Zero Skill Spamus, but how are his match ups against Rosa and Sheik? I'd like to see whether or not I'd need to pick up a new character to counter them more effectively or if I can stick it out as the king.

 

[MioTinto]

Anyways, I have a question. I'm aware that Dedede is trash against Zero Skill Spamus, but how are his match ups against Rosa and Sheik? I'd like to see whether or not I'd need to pick up a new character to counter them more effectively or if I can stick it out as the king.

We're actually even to Rosa, as we have a lot easier than most of the cast to clobbah Luma. More about it here. We're trash against Sheik though, avoid the matchup at all costs.

 

[SalsaSavant]

So, I was at the Robin board, and saw that they have a spreadsheet for MUs. Maybe we could use something like that? Add some comments?

 

[abx]

I'm highly curious about that list. According to it Robin has very few disadvantageous match ups, mainly against some S/A-Tiers and Mii Brawler, anything else is perfectly even or in Robin's favour. The most bad MUs are 40/60 except the MUs with ZSS and Mii Brawler (25/75). Sheik for example is expected a 45/55, which sounds kinda ambitious considering all the struggle oozing out of the applied notes. In the old match-up thread over there at Sheik's -dMT- answered a Robin player's MU-question basically with "Sheik destroys Robin" ( http://smashboards.com/threads/ninj...k-match-up-thread.371918/page-2#post-17791279 ) the answer is quoted in the starting post and received no further argument.

But the format's nice, sure.

 

[Dar4]

The most important matchup we need to discuss...sassy lounge crouches. Does Bayonetta have us beat?

Yes. It's really bad for D3. D3 is the perfect huge, floaty target for all her off the top KO combos.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Yes. It's really bad for D3. D3 is the perfect huge, floaty target for all her off the top KO combos.

But do we lounge sassier than her?

 

[Soul Train]

Yes. It's really bad for D3. D3 is the perfect huge, floaty target for all her off the top KO combos.

Here is my scientific method of determining difficulty of D3 matchups:

1. Are they faster on the ground and air? YES: we can be baited out, it's a disadvantage. NO: it's probably even
2. Do they have any ground moves faster than 6-7 frames? YES: we'll wrecked at close range, disadvantage. NO: they probably have a projectile, disadvantage. STILL NO: oh hi Ganondorf

But do we lounge sassier than her?

Why is this even a question I do not even

NO ONE TAUNTS LIKE DEDEDE

 

[Dar4]

Here is my scientific method of determining difficulty of D3 matchups:

1. Are they faster on the ground and air? YES: we can be baited out, it's a disadvantage. NO: it's probably even
2. Do they have any ground moves faster than 6-7 frames? YES: we'll wrecked at close range, disadvantage. NO: they probably have a projectile, disadvantage. STILL NO: oh hi Ganondorf

Bayonetta can do whatever she wants in the matchup. She's kind of slow on the ground but she doesn't have to spend a lot of time there or approach D3.

I played a great Bayo player today in friendlies for about 3 hours. Local, not online. The matchup is so bad I wouldn't ever consider using D3 against him in bracket. It was an eyeopening experience, I didn't understand why people are saying Bayo is maybe best in the game until today as this was my first experience against a great Bayo player. The character can do ridiculous things.

Bayonetta is much faster in the air, has better frame data, has a projectile to force Dedede to approach and can convert a single side B, upair or grounded up B into combo strings that can KO off the top at any percent. And even if she doesn't convert the KO she racks up huge damage. Bayonetta is sort of like ZSS in that if you have a huge hurtbox it's a slaughter. But it's as bad or maybe even worse because Bayo doesn't have to rely on a laggy grab. She can fish for her above mentioned moves after Dedede commits to something. It's REALLY, really, really bad for Dedede. It's as bad as ZSS or worse. She can stay at a safe distance and punish most of D3's moveset with a variety of moves that lead to her combo strings.

And I'm not even mentioning witch time, which if we hit by it means death at mid/high percents from a fully charged smash attack.

Based off early impression I'd say 70:30 Bayonetta, if not worse. I'll hold off though on saying for sure since nobody really knows how to deal with her yet, and as I said this was my first experience against a great Bayo. But it's obvious you cannot use a character with a large hurtbox against her and expect to have a good time.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

View attachment 97988

NO ONE TAUNTS LIKE DEDEDE

I see that you tried to pause the match at 4:20. Just a bit off there my friend! But that's okay. We can't all be perfect like the king

 

[Dededeity]

Bayonetta can do whatever she wants in the matchup. She's kind of slow on the ground but she doesn't have to spend a lot of time there or approach D3.

I played a great Bayo player today in friendlies for about 3 hours. Local, not online. The matchup is so bad I wouldn't ever consider using D3 against him in bracket. It was an eyeopening experience, I didn't understand why people are saying Bayo is maybe best in the game until today as this was my first experience against a great Bayo player. The character can do ridiculous things.

Bayonetta is much faster in the air, has better frame data, has a projectile to force Dedede to approach and can convert a single side B, upair or grounded up B into combo strings that can KO off the top at any percent. And even if she doesn't convert the KO she racks up huge damage. Bayonetta is sort of like ZSS in that if you have a huge hurtbox it's a slaughter. But it's as bad or maybe even worse because Bayo doesn't have to rely on a laggy grab. She can fish for her above mentioned moves after Dedede commits to something. It's REALLY, really, really bad for Dedede. It's as bad as ZSS or worse. She can stay at a safe distance and punish most of D3's moveset with a variety of moves that lead to her combo strings.

And I'm not even mentioning witch time, which if we hit by it means death at mid/high percents from a fully charged smash attack.

Based off early impression I'd say 70:30 Bayonetta, if not worse. I'll hold off though on saying for sure since nobody really knows how to deal with her yet, and as I said this was my first experience against a great Bayo. But it's obvious you cannot use a character with a large hurtbox against her and expect to have a good time.

Optimal strategy: wait for bayonetta nerf.

 

[Soul Train]

Optimal strategy: wait for bayonetta nerf.

That's not how we play this game. You take what you're given, find ways around the hard parts, and do your best with what you have. If you're not going to be part of the solution, don't add to the negativity.

... But it's as bad or maybe even worse because Bayo doesn't have to rely on a laggy grab. She can fish for her above mentioned moves after Dedede commits to something. It's REALLY, really, really bad for Dedede. It's as bad as ZSS or worse. She can stay at a safe distance and punish most of D3's moveset with a variety of moves that lead to her combo strings.

Based off early impression I'd say 70:30 Bayonetta, if not worse. I'll hold off though on saying for sure since nobody really knows how to deal with her yet, and as I said this was my first experience against a great Bayo. But it's obvious you cannot use a character with a large hurtbox against her and expect to have a good time.

While I agree it's a bad matchup, comparing it to ZSS (or worse) is just unrealistic. Bayo is a new character, and we're all still learning how to punish what seem like her high-priority, safe attacks. But just like when you fight a good Dhalsim in Street Fighter, matchup experience completely shifts everything.

ZSS's "laggy grab" is often not a liability against the slow D3, and even when it is, the risk is justified by its the crazy followup potential. In contrast Bayo has terrible grab range, no throw followups, and horrendous kill power from throw. This means D3 can shield far more safely in neutral, which is huge for a character that relies on shield a lot already.

ZSS/Bayo actually have some very similar aerial attacks and landing lag on those attacks, so it's pretty equal there.

However the ground is where things really separate. Bayo is almost entirely unsafe on the ground, and very punishable with smart spacing/shielding. ZSS has a 1 frame jab, and a 6 frame ftilt. Both mostly safe and usable in mixups. In contrast, Bayo has a 9 frame jab. Nine frames. That is absolutely horrendous, second only to D3's barely worse 10-frame jab (except D3's is disjointed with far better range). Her fastest move there is Dtilt at 7 frames, which is a good combo starter but also unsafe and completely outranged by D3's Jab/Ftilt. Her SideB approach lets her get in - but unlike Sonic it's massively unsafe. With his 6-frame Dtilt, that means Dedede actually has faster ground frame data than someone else in this game for once. The fact is, Nintendo pretty blatantly balanced Bayo's strengths by making her struggle against shields, have bad ground frame data, and be stupid light. I'm not saying she's bad whatsoever - I'm saying people have yet to optimize their play against these unqiue weaknesses.

Yes Witch Time is a thing, and it's good. But it doesn't break the character, and it is baitable. One good point: one of Bayo's best killing moves is Usmash, and D3 dies the latest out of everyone in the cast off the top.

This isn't 70:30. There is seriously no comparison against characters like ZSS and Sonic in how they mathematically and practically get to harass D3 for free. It might not even be 60:40, but only time will tell.