Social General Ice Climber Chat

[DerfMidWest]

Pic of it in action (it's really hard to get a good picture since the animation is so little, but you can see that nana is turned around). I'm guessing the code spawns the ice blocks on popo's animation if they are together, both at once. So when you fick it back before nana does her animation, it doesn't shoot another ice block backwards, but it does read that you turned it around in the air and does nana's animation accordingly

Yeah it happens all the time (not just from spawn). I'm not sure the exact specifics of it, but basically if you have nana iceblock then jump in the opposite direction, kinda through her, that's when it seems to occur.

It doesn't really do anything practical that I could think of though.

 

[Absolome]

this one is a specific setup for it, you have to iceblock after empty hopping, and then hit away from the climbers as popo swings his hammer. So popo does the normal hammer swing but nana's gets reversed because her's comes out later and it registers that you hit away so it gives you the reverse hitbox

 

[Smog]

I'm so happy seeing Wobbles play in Forte 2. He and fly are, liek ma heeros. I didn't know popo grab nana f-air edge spike was a thing in melee till I saw him do it. I thought it was brawl only.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's unreliable since it's only a meteor.

 

[Absolome]

it looked like there was a chance that it worked there because they were on yoshi's and the percents were so high but usually I'd only ever use that to style on people because it's a meteor

if you're playing someone who doesn't know about teching it you can dthrown fair on stage to jab reset which is kinda fun but good players will always tech it

 

[Fly_Amanita]

More random match-up knowledge:

Something you'll see characters like Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and space animals do sometimes against Falco is jump into his dair at low percentages, land, and punish him. Sheik, Marth, and Falcon are tall and get a decent frame advantage because of that; space animals get less of an advantage, but they have a frame 1 move that compensates for that.

ICs are short, and if Falco dairs (with the strong hitbox, which I'll assume throughout this post) both of them at the same time, ICs typically don't get that much of an advantage. I generally observed around 5 frames, which is only enough time to jab, which is often unsafe against ASDI down -> shine. However, if Falco hits both ICs at different times, he can experience substantially more hitlag, which can yield a much bigger advantage. In particular, let's look at the following picture:

In this picture, Popo just jumped and Nana is in jumpsquat, during which she crouches a bit before jumping. If Falco falls on Popo with dair around this position and hits Nana a bit later, he'll experience quite a bit of hitlag, and ICs will generally be able to act around 10-13 frames before Falco will. This is a comfortable amount of time to get a grab off of which you might be able to kill Falco.

Considering that ICs already have pretty good options for beating a lot of dairs, it's worth looking at how this compares to the alternatives. Utilt is fast, and gets a good reward if you can connect with the last hit,but it's becoming less relevant in the ICs metagame as people get better at SDIing out of it, and it also is somewhat limited in that you need to commit to a position on the ground to do it, and you can't do it OoS. AC uair is nice, and perfectly done only comes out a frame later than utilt does, but can still be somewhat difficult to do on reaction, partially since you rise a bit off the ground, meaning Falco will reach you a tiny bit faster than if you stayed on the ground. Usmash is great if it hits at low percentages, and will often lead to a grab or at a least good combo, but it's not active that long, takes a while to come out, and is quite punishable afterwards.

The big downsides to jumping into a dair like this are that you take damage and that it doesn't work past a certain point. It looked like it worked up to 37% when I was testing it yesterday. Another downside is that it's unsafe if Falco chooses to nair or bair. However, it can get you a grab, which kills more reliably than the alternatives, so I think it's an option worth having in mind.

 

[S2rulL]

GUYS

WOBBLES WAS WOBBLING AT FORTE 2

ASABVJNVFIODUVBJKNADFVIHSAJNFLSDHBJV

THE MOTHER F'N PHOENIX

 

[DerfMidWest]

So apparently you can desync from a moonwalk.
It's weird though, I'm still playing around with it. Sometimes popo acts first and sometimes nana does.

It's kinda hard though because if you try to act too quickly you'll sideB, but you have to hold back long enough to actually moonwalk.
Doesn't have to be a full length moonwalk tho.
They are pretty hard so I'm just doing them from walk instead of from waveland right now, so it doesn't look very fluid yet.

I don't think it would ever be useful though, since DD and ftilt guard desyncs are faster (and easier), but it looks kinda cool.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

So apparently you can desync from a moonwalk.
It's weird though, I'm still playing around with it. Sometimes popo acts first and sometimes nana does.

It's kinda hard though because if you try to act too quickly you'll sideB, but you have to hold back long enough to actually moonwalk.
Doesn't have to be a full length moonwalk tho.
They are pretty hard so I'm just doing them from walk instead of from waveland right now, so it doesn't look very fluid yet.

I don't think it would ever be useful though, since DD and ftilt guard desyncs are faster (and easier), but it looks kinda cool.

I was desynching with a moonwalk lately too

 

[Smog]

I think I found out my marth problem. I need to work on my OoS stuff, and I have to just work on using blizzard more. I feel like everytime I used it, it never let me down.
Also is a grab desync faster than a spot dodge desync?

 

[SHIP]

I think I found out my marth problem. I need to work on my OoS stuff, and I have to just work on using blizzard more. I feel like everytime I used it, it never let me down.
Also is a grab desync faster than a spot dodge desync?

If you're trying to desync into blizzard wouldn't dash dance desync be better than either of those?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Dash-dance Blizzard desynch can also be used with "Ice Block" by crouching (dash cancelling). I was looking at Fly's guide and he didn't seem to mention that

 

[Blue2ez]

what do you guys do about doubles? I feel like I can't do anything as IC's but im not good enough to warrant practicing an separate character for doubles.

 

[Smog]

If you're trying to desync into blizzard wouldn't dash dance desync be better than either of those?

Yeah it is. I'm practicing it and having a lot of trouble. Every time I do it, it seems like Nana gets completely separated from Popo, or I jump, or I side b by accident.

 

[DerfMidWest]

what do you guys do about doubles? I feel like I can't do anything as IC's but im not good enough to warrant practicing an separate character for doubles.

I've made a ton of posts about ICs in doubles before, but in short:
you control the ground. if your partner knows how to play on platforms, ICs are very good in doubles.

you need a good traditional combo game (non CG, because those are slow and you'll get bopped) and a really good sopo.

and you can't just like sit back and mindlessly camp or run in without thinking, you have to be moving a lot, but the goal is gaining control of the stage.

then once you leave neutral, and separate your opponents, you either wall while your opponent goes in or you let your opponent wall while you wobble/cg

 

[OddishGuy]

So apparently you can desync from a moonwalk.
....
I don't think it would ever be useful though, since DD and ftilt guard desyncs are faster (and easier), but it looks kinda cool.

For the $VV4G!!!

I think I found out my marth problem. I need to work on my OoS stuff

If you have the hackpack, have Marth spam F-smash and practice WDOoS grabs or smashes.
Have Marth spam D-tilt and practice SH fairs to get the spacing down.
Those two tidbits alone can get you far in the matchup. Aside from that, blizzard everything :D

I'm horrible at this matchup, but my favorite thing to do is WD in, Nana F-smash while Popo dashes back, dash back and then react to what the Marth did. IC's have an answer for everything Marth can do, so anytime you can force their hand you can usually get stage control, combos, or grabs.

 

[DerfMidWest]

IC's have an answer for everything Marth can do

Uuuuuh... dtilt.

 

[OddishGuy]

Uuuuuh... dtilt.

As I stated in the quoted post, SH fair should beat it. Or are you inferring some other scenario?

 

[DerfMidWest]

As I stated in the quoted post, SH fair should beat it. Or are you inferring some other scenario?

have you ever played a decent marth?
all he has to do is dd and react to whatever ICs do. His pivot dtilt covers every grounded approach and ICs sh fair is so horrendously slow that its rendered nearly useless since he can just react and fair or pivot fsmash.
SH fair is definitely not an answer.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

SH fair most definitely is an answer. It hits Marth cleanly if you make an accurate read on his dtilt. If the Marth really does just DD and try to react to everything, then just camp him out or shove him to the corner.

 

[Myougi]

have you ever played a decent marth?
all he has to do is dd and react to whatever ICs do. His pivot dtilt covers every grounded approach and ICs sh fair is so horrendously slow that its rendered nearly useless since he can just react and fair or pivot fsmash.
SH fair is definitely not an answer.

Sometimes shield-drop dair is great in situations where Marth is dash dancing under you. Against Marth stage position means life or death. If you strike to BF you should try to retreat to the top platform every so often. Marths have to use their DJ to reach you. If you're smart about it sometimes (this has actually only happened to me once) you can WD onto a mid platform and grab them without their DJ. Marths don't get their DJ back from grabs.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Sometimes shield-drop dair is great in situations where Marth is dash dancing under you. Against Marth stage position means life or death. If you strike to BF you should try to retreat to the top platform every so often. Marths have to use their DJ to reach you. If you're smart about it sometimes (this has actually only happened to me once) you can WD onto a mid platform and grab them without their DJ. Marths don't get their DJ back from grabs.

I'm aware. I was just explaining that ICs definitely do not have an answer to everything marth can do. It is most certainly not a good matchup.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Being on the top platform of BF against Marth is mostly terrible. He can poke at you with full jump uair very safely and getting down is very dangerous.

 

[Myougi]

Being on the top platform of BF against Marth is mostly terrible. He can poke at you with full jump uair very safely and getting down is very dangerous.

I hate to call you wrong, but I'm going too. You can easily shield it (just angle it down if you need too), and if the Marth tries it again you can get out of the way with a simple wavedash (read the jump). Anyway, his air mobility isn't good enough to be able to DJ uair and still make it onto a side platform.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Of course you can shield it, but that does nothing positive for you. The fact of the matter is that you have essentially nothing to gain by being above Marth; he'll cleanly beat everything you can do from above with uair, and if he manages to stay below you (which he does mainly with dashes, not his air mobility), you are extremely liable to get juggled badly.

 

[Myougi]

Of course you can shield it, but that does nothing positive for you. The fact of the matter is that you have essentially nothing to gain by being above Marth; he'll cleanly beat everything you can do from above with uair, and if he manages to stay below you (which he does mainly with dashes, not his air mobility), you are extremely liable to get juggled badly.

Which is why you only retreat there in certain situations such as for recovery. Also, if you get juggled, SDI Up+Away can usually be the trick. Marth juggling you is hard to get way from, but using platforms and teching/wavelanding is an okay way to get away from it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

In the context of recovery, sure; it's often better to get hit while up there than it is near the sides.

The hardest part of getting juggled is generally getting down. SDI is fine for avoiding or hindering some combos, but it generally does little to actually let you reach the ground. Platforms indeed can play a part in helping you get down.

While there are reasons to be on platforms occasionally, I just want to emphasize that it's not a position you should actively strive to be in, outside of some occasions where you aren't in control or situations where Marth is on a platform and you're confident you can successfully hit or pressure him.

 

[OddishGuy]

have you ever played a decent marth?
all he has to do is dd and react to whatever ICs do. His pivot dtilt covers every grounded approach and ICs sh fair is so horrendously slow that its rendered nearly useless since he can just react and fair or pivot fsmash.
SH fair is definitely not an answer.

I have practiced with a decent Marth, I never said it's a favorable matchup, I understand you are likely a better ICs so I appreciate your input but you're kind of condescending =[

My main point was that if you can force the Marth to pick an option, you can counter it. If he is DDing or waiting to react to you then he is in a neutral state and you have not forced an option to react to.

I will 100% argue that ICs have an answer to everything Marth can do from neutral. However, the way the matchup plays out is that Marth typically reacts to ICs rather than vice-versa.
I think we can definitely agree on the latter point.

 

[Smog]

If you have the hackpack, have Marth spam F-smash and practice WDOoS grabs or smashes.
Have Marth spam D-tilt and practice SH fairs to get the spacing down.
Those two tidbits alone can get you far in the matchup. Aside from that, blizzard everything :D

I have the hackpack.
So I go and shield the f-smash, then wavedash to marth after being hit and grab/hit him?
I'm still bad at this game, especially with the spam part of it. All the marths I play just jump in and fair, or I try to run in and they f-smash me. I can always read they will do that stuff I just don't know how to respond to it, especially during a game with everything else going on.

 

[OddishGuy]

I have the hackpack.
So I go and shield the f-smash, then wavedash to marth after being hit and grab/hit him?
I'm still bad at this game, especially with the spam part of it. All the marths I play just jump in and fair, or I try to run in and they f-smash me. I can always read they will do that stuff I just don't know how to respond to it, especially during a game with everything else going on.

Against Marth especially, WD in with shield can be helpful. If they're just F-smashing your approach all the time, WD in with sheild, WDOoS grab after the hit will work (I think if they tipper you you won't be able to get there in time). If you WD in and they approach with Fair you can get the shield grab. If they retreat with fair you can do nothing, just let them give up stage position.

Something Marth can mix you up with if you are keeping the WD with shield going is grabs. I don't think you can really practice this on the Hack-pack very well, but you can get the ungrabbed ICs to shield and grab after Marth throws. Or you can try to get a smash off (less reliable, situational reward value).

With blizzard, you have 1 move that outranges Marth. I don't want to say spam it, but keeping it out with Nana can be really useful if you're playing with a lead.
One other thing to practice is Nana blizzard to SH Popo blizzard to Nana blizzard, all in the same direction. If you're keeping Nana Blizzards out, some Marths will just wait for Blizzard to end and then approach you on the ground, this can stuff that a bit.

I'd recommend reading the matchup guide on this forum; it's really good and has a lot more useful info than I can post.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I have practiced with a decent Marth, I never said it's a favorable matchup, I understand you are likely a better ICs so I appreciate your input but you're kind of condescending =[

My main point was that if you can force the Marth to pick an option, you can counter it. If he is DDing or waiting to react to you then he is in a neutral state and you have not forced an option to react to.

I will 100% argue that ICs have an answer to everything Marth can do from neutral. However, the way the matchup plays out is that Marth typically reacts to ICs rather than vice-versa.
I think we can definitely agree on the latter point.

Hey man, I appologize for that, my anger wasnt directed at you.
Thinking about marth makes me upset.

 

[Absolome]

Thinking about marth makes me want to cry

I'm pretty sure I've been beaten by marths who only fmash. Last time I played in a local I was a lot worse at WD OoS punishes though, so hopefully I'll do better from now on

 

[S2rulL]

Speaking of vs Marths, my match against a Marth at my most recent monthly tournament was damaged by the internet breaking, but for anyone who wants to see me wobble some stocks away and get some clutch wins, have a gander here.

 

[S2rulL]

Also, at the same tournament previously mentioned, the grand finals set is undamaged and watchable, so gimme a critique please!

 

[DerfMidWest]

wow that was a rough start <.<

first, props for rockin the best IC skin.

from what I've seen so far, the things you need to work on most are your movement and not fishing for grabs so much.
these two things will also help your sopo a lot.

you also have this habit of what looks like you're not really focusing on your opponent (especially when they are recovering)
I used to have this same habit, where I attacked where I wanted them to be instead of focusing on where they were actually going.
At the end of the first match you adapted though and covered the platform since he kept going there every time he recovered with upB.

for dthrow->fullhop dair cg on fox, make sure you are moving forward with nana. It makes it harder to escape. just a little thing that helps.

In general, but especially with sopo, make sure you're careful when you use smash attacks. It's very easy to become over-reliant on them (particularly dsmash).
Approaching mindlessly with smashes is actually a really bad habit of mine that I'm currently trying to break.

Your recovery with sopo could use a little work. Which is really common, because it's hard. Especially against fox. Instant DJ to the ledge is pretty bad most of the time, since fox will always be looking for that for an easy shine spike KO.
Just try to mix up your options a little more.
It's hard though. Especially when you panic.

A useful tip is to know how far fox's shine will send you/nana and try to always position yourself so that neither one of you will end up offstage if you do get shined.
Game 3 on yoshi's you were positioned poorly under a platform and nana was blizzarding and he just shined her offstage then shined her out of her dj.

I don't agree with the commentators about yoshi's, I think the smaller size makes it excellent for ICs to control the stage. Again, positioning and spacing are key for doing this.

Watch the roll/spotdodge desyncs. It looked like he started looking for you to roll then started hitting nana.
This is a pretty common problem, and why the roll desyncs are risky except in specific situations, I'd really advise working on DD desyncs and incorporating them into your play.

Those were the main things I saw, other than that it looks like you've been making a lot of progress, so good ****.

 

[SHIP]

Also, at the same tournament previously mentioned, the grand finals set is undamaged and watchable, so gimme a critique please!

Dude wavedash downsmash and roll blizzard are great and all but I think you need to add something else to your repertoire. TFU pretty much had the audiobook playing during those games. The majority of your kills actually came from him missing the lcancel on shield or tunnel visioning on nana.

As fox spends a good deal of time above you I feel like uair is one of the most effective tools in that matchup.
A lot of people favour wavedash into tilts or jabs over smashes especially against space animals.

I don't really have a whole lot to say on this but you need to find a way to leave yourself less open and to become less predictable.

 

[SHIP]

So while hiding from my relatives on christmas day I started working on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27tdZm3AgrY
I was thinking it may be effective when the dashdance blizzard missed its target. In an ideal world the back air would autocancel but still allow nana to perform a move (such as blizzard again or d/fsmash) in between popo back airing and performing the followup such as fsmash dsmash or maybe ftilt.

Would like to hear peoples thoughts on it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So while hiding from my relatives on christmas day I started working on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27tdZm3AgrY
I was thinking it may be effective when the dashdance blizzard missed its target. In an ideal world the back air would autocancel but still allow nana to perform a move (such as blizzard again or d/fsmash) in between popo back airing and performing the followup such as fsmash dsmash or maybe ftilt.

Would like to hear peoples thoughts on it.

I actually like to do stuff like this all the time since people like to try and dash away or buffer roll out to avoid the blizzard, you can clip them with bair a lot of the time. It's also pretty effective at closing in space on a lot of characters since you can nanapult after if you're fast enough.
Generally, I find it best if the opponent is trapped closer to the edge of the stage, because it basically makes it so they can only go to the platform to avoid getting hit and you can uair instead of bair to catch them.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

The best IC's skin in my opinion is the Orange/blue popsicle climbers.

 

[R.I.P.]

Howdy. Been lurking for a while and decided I might as well just create an account. Right now I'm wondering how to get Nana only to blizzard. I mean like, you can do the spot dodge and then blizzard, but I must be doing it too slow or something because it takes a while (shield, then do the spot dodge, then blizzard) and at that point it's not worth it.

In this video (can't link, it's "EVO 2014 SSBM SMF Pools - Fly Amanita vs Chillin") at around 6:04 Fly does the blizzard with seemingly no lag. What is he doing here?