Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smasher89]

I do like to see that you use the nana fsmash in the beginning to pressure, and pivotgrab (so both sides), those are a coupl

 

[DerfMidWest]

the dash dance fsmash desync is super underused and it's awesome.
I've also been using a lot more solo-squal desyncs lately, they are reeeeally useful.
Like you can cover so much space and nanapult out of it and all that jazz.

also dthrow and fthrow fair on floaties to force tech-chases is really good when you can't set up a wobble/wobbling is banned or some bs like that

 

[WINK ;)]

I NEED a counter to Jigglypuff or just one with an even matchup. I main Falco/Peach but would like to have a character to do play Jiggs... Is IC's a good character(s) to pick up for a Jiggs matchup?

Yes or no? Tell me why? Please.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Not if you aren't going to main them.
ICs take a lot of work. And puff can be a technically demanding matchup.

Falco does fine against puff, tbh, you just need to keep putting the work in.

 

[WINK ;)]

Not if you aren't going to main them.
ICs take a lot of work. And puff can be a technically demanding matchup.

Falco does fine against puff, tbh, you just need to keep putting the work in.

No jigglypuff is killing me or anything... I just want to prepare for when I get better and go to more Major Tournaments. But yeah, I kinda thought that myself.... Thanks for the input... I have never seen someone secondary IC's and thats probably why.

 

[Vanitas]

the dash dance fsmash desync is super underused and it's awesome.

Do you have a video of this? I've been trying to do this, but the most I get is Popo sliding after the dashdance and then Fsmash

 

[cemo]

erm there's a few dash dance desynchs. do you want popo to f-smash or nana? for popo you should probably just pivot smash with the c-stick. nana is a bit trickier to get her to do stuff and you'll have to get her in one of those weird sliding stands while you're in a dash.

 

[cemo]

actually since we're on the topic. http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

i think some good info could be come out of theorycrafting/messing around a bit here.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Do you have a video of this? I've been trying to do this, but the most I get is Popo sliding after the dashdance and then Fsmash

http://youtu.be/TX5f6YbAYl4?t=8s


also, do any of you guys still run in to problems with TOs banning wobbling?
Because the only place I still see it banned is MI tournaments.
And I'm the only IC there.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

I NEED a counter to Jigglypuff or just one with an even matchup. I main Falco/Peach but would like to have a character to do play Jiggs... Is IC's a good character(s) to pick up for a Jiggs matchup?

Yes or no? Tell me why? Please.

No. IC's are probably the most demanding character to play. If you're worried about a certain character in major tournaments, try instead learning the matchup, especially if they aren't a hard counter. The only time you should pickup a secondary for the sake of countering a character is after you've got your mains down, like completely down you can play that at a really high level, and when the character in question is a hard counter to your main(s). Even then it's iffy because double blind and things like that.
Someone on here might quote me saying to someone to use Puff vs. Peach and Samus, instead of Icies, to a newer player. In the long run, it would be better for that person to get really good at the matchup, but those matchups are so awful for icies (and in Samus' case, rare) that they could stop all momentum and kind of make you not have fun if you aren't amazing with the matchup. Then you could go on tilt, make stupid mistakes, etc. etc.

For you, you should just stick to Falco. The matchup is fine, just try to hold your ground near centre stage because puff can gimp Falco kinda easily, but you can kill her at kinda low%'s with most of your attacks due to her super low weight.

 

[DerfMidWest]

man you non-midwest kids are so lucky.
I run in to a peach or a samus every tourney (there are like 4 decent samusi in central ohio and then duck in MI)
and ohio happens to be the peach capital of the world <.<

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

man you non-midwest kids are so lucky.
I run in to a peach or a samus every tourney (there are like 4 decent samusi in central ohio and then duck in MI)
and ohio happens to be the peach capital of the world <.<

Oh **** you have zDuck in that area too. I'm so sorry for you. If it's any consolation i have Bladewise and The Prime in my state, and of course are regular attenders of all the tournaments here lol

 

[DerfMidWest]

yup zDuck. Paraidgm, Gunpunch, and Watty are also all in columbus.
And as far as peaches go, we have VaNz, ShroudedOne, and Vidjo is starting to play again.
Oh and Hanky Panky.
And a million others.

Then Abate and Vudujin in PA for luigi...
I need to move....
Portland sounds nice. I'ma go there.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

yup zDuck. Paraidgm, Gunpunch, and Watty are also all in columbus.
And as far as peaches go, we have VaNz, ShroudedOne, and Vidjo is starting to play again.
Oh and Hanky Panky.
And a million others.

Then Abate and Vudujin in PA for luigi...
I need to move....
Portland sounds nice. I'ma go there.

Vidjo is playing again? Dayumn.

 

[Engo]

yup zDuck. Paraidgm, Gunpunch, and Watty are also all in columbus.
And as far as peaches go, we have VaNz, ShroudedOne, and Vidjo is starting to play again.
Oh and Hanky Panky.
And a million others.

Then Abate and Vudujin in PA for luigi...
I need to move....
Portland sounds nice. I'ma go there.

Embrace it as a chance to get all the IC-Peach practice you'll ever need. If I recall correctly Wobbles got really good vs Peach because he had Peach players as one his main training partners. I think it was DoH or something.

 

[KingDozie]

Im having trouble with marth mostly Side b and dash cancel fsmash?

 

[Vanitas]

http://youtu.be/TX5f6YbAYl4?t=8s


also, do any of you guys still run in to problems with TOs banning wobbling?
Because the only place I still see it banned is MI tournaments.
And I'm the only IC there.

Thanks for that! To address your other question, I am in Canada, Ottawa and they still reinforce the anti-wobbling rule...It's mostly because one guy in my community will whine non-stop from experience of a previous match against me and people want to avoid him causing more drama =P

Im having trouble with marth mostly Side b and dash cancel fsmash?

Fsmashes from Marth can easily be shielded and then wavedashed out into a grab. If you are dealing with a single hit of Side B (if the Marth is trying to outspace you with it) then it is crouchcancelable (Free downsmash!) but if you are dealing with the whole dance animation, it's easy to punish the lag on the last hit of the dancing blade.

What do people think about Fthrow jumping Ice Block with Nana as a chaingrab on Fastfallers? I have been experimenting and if they try to DI away and down, they are hit by the weird hit box of the ice block animation that sends them no where but stunned on the ground. If they DI towards you, they're popped up into the air and a regrab is easy on good reaction.

Also in the neutral game, how do people deal with the Link matchup? When it comes to long distance fighting, it's easy to have a projectile war that kinda goes no where, but when it comes to actually getting closer, it is relatively easy for Link to wall you out with a lot of his safe moves (Jab, Nair, Fair)...how do most of you overcome this?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Embrace it as a chance to get all the IC-Peach practice you'll ever need. If I recall correctly Wobbles got really good vs Peach because he had Peach players as one his main training partners. I think it was DoH or something.

Yeah wobbles played DoH on the regular.
I consider myself pretty good at the matchup (when I'm playing on point), and I don't mind peach, tbh, but samus is exhaaaausting. I'm selling out and using sheik/falcon/fox for that one in particular because it just straight up isn't fun.

Im having trouble with marth mostly Side b and dash cancel fsmash?

yeah you gotta just be patient with that bs. I used to have a lot of problems with the marth MU, pretty much just chill in your shield and look for an opportunity to WD out and punish that ho. his fsmash on your shield means a free grab.
SideB is actually really good against ICs, but a lot of marths don't know about it. I pretty much buffer a roll behind him as soon as I see it and look for the panic fsmash or something lame like that.
You gotta keep mixing it up though. Don't get into the habit of having programmed responses. Except on shielded fsmashes, those are free.

 

[Smasher89]

Grats to Fly winning that tournament. Noticed there were quite a bit of adjustments from first to second set, and also turning around before saving nana the second time with up b.

I think ive found another bnb for ICs except for just blizzard(bnb in the way that marth uses his fthrow at 0-7 % on spacies, then upthrow). Ill work on the % on that for later i think, and probably test it against players(i think it might be the one thing that makes ICs destroy in the marthmatchup)

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

bnb?

Also more importantly; GRATS TO FLY AMANITA, PLAYED FANTASTICALLY AND WON THE ENTIRE TOURNAMENT. THAT SOPO THO?

 

[Smasher89]

Uploading it atm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4KPvTviHIA&feature=youtu.be should be quite selfexplainiaining how it works(even though its 3ds camera in a bit of dark surrounding). Standing and dashgrab depending on % (and prob DI).

 

[john!]

that video has nothing to do with a bed n breakfast

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Yeah wtf does bnb mean m8?

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Oh w8 it's **** that's guaranteed, the bread and butter of the character in x matchup, i.e. Peach uthrow combo is bnb in the CFal matchup

 

[DerfMidWest]

yeah this is one of my favorite things to do actually, from what I understand, it's guaranteed. The only problem is that nana is the one who gets the grab, so unless you are by the ledge, it's hard to convert that into a popo grab, but you will always get something out of it. I'm still a huge fan of jab-canceling into grab though, it's so good.
ftilt is safer though because you can't CC it.

 

[Tomber]

You can do f-tilt -> f-tilt -> grab to make Popo do the grab. It's a decent wobbling set up.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Some of you already know about this from Twitter, Twitch, or talking to me elsewhere, but I haven't made a post about it yet and I think it's pretty useful in some circumstances:

A lot of the time when ICs are synced and have the same shield size, an enemy's attack will hit both ICs' shields at the same time. Popo and Nana hence exit shieldstun at the same time. Since Nana reads inputs 6 frames late, this means that if I input a command within 6 frames of shieldstun ending, Popo will ignore it since he's still in shieldstun, but Nana will receive it after exiting shieldstun and hence act on it. There are a lot of things you can do out of this, but the most useful one to me seems to be telling Nana to jump and blizzard while Popo continues shielding. Ice block instead of blizzard seems better in some circumstances, as well, like when you're confident the enemy will stay near the ground and not throw out a move that will clank with the ice block, or when you don't have a guaranteed punishment OoS and the enemy is outside of blizzard range.

More explicitly, the main application I see of this is to punish or reverse the pressure caused by high damage moves that ICs have a difficult time retaliating against out of shield. For example, Falcon kneeing a shield over and over can be punished with this; it can also be used to retaliate after Ganon fairs your shield, which can be a pretty threatening situation, especially when you're cornered. You can even squeeze a blizzard between two Marth fairs, but the timing for that is pretty strict and much more difficult on your end than Marth's.

In a lot of ways, this is like doing belay OoS -> blizzard after an attack hits your shield, but other than being more difficult than that, it's essentially strictly better. For one thing, doing belay OoS requires inputting the belay after Popo's shieldstun ends, meaning Nana isn't going to jump and start a blizzard (or whatever else you might want to do) at least 6 frames later. With this shieldstun desynch, you can have Nana jumping up to 6 frames before that. Aside from that, the solo belay animation is terribly laggy, and you generally can't expect to get any sort of punishment off of the blizzard (or ice block/etc). With the shieldstun desynch, you can have Popo act OoS as soon as you want him to. To give a sloppy example of this desynch in action, here's an instance of me using it at TNE (the time being 8:16 if the timestamp doesn't work for you). I hit down after shieldstun ended and hence accidentally spot-dodged, and reacted poorly after that as well, but I hope that clip suggests how this can actually be useful.

The last thing I'll say about this is that the timing varies a ton depending on the move, and also a bit on the move's staleness. When a move hits your shield, you first go through hitlag (almost always just a function of move damage) and then go through shieldstun (purely a function of move damage), so the time you exit shieldstun tends to vary a lot depending on the damage of the move hitting your shield. This means that the 6 frame window in which you want to tell Nana to jump occurs in pretty different places depending on what hits your shield, so it's really hard to do this on a whim. I recommend learning the timing for specific high-damage moves which are difficult to punish OoS, such as the aforementioned knees and Ganon fairs. There are plenty of other examples across the cast.

 

[Tuesday]

Hey guys, I was looking to get some help with the Samus matchup. Here's a recent video of me playing a Samus in tournament.

Now I had some tournament jitters, but I'll refrain from pointing out things I already know are wrong because I want to hear every criticism you guys can offer me. Thanks in advance! Some particular feedback that would be helpful is anything you can tell me that might help keep Nana with me and alive. There were some parts where I tried going to her and making her jump out of the way but it ended up confusing her I guess lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb7JpV_CNmQ

 

[cemo]

Yeah I had spotted your spot dodge blizzard when watching the videos and came to the conclusion it was probably a shield stun thing. Frame data wise it seems to take 19 frames before the first blizzard hitbox will comeout so it won't necessarily be a strong punish tool unless they're doing really unsafe things. But it is a very high priority move and looks great for reclaiming space, while Popo will still be able to act of out shield as normal.

So you would also probably be able to use this against some long range pokes that people use too, eg: Samus f-tilt?

And for Vanitas this looks like a good answer for you to SAUS's Link's stuff
You can probably space f-tilt on the nairs too.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Hey Fly, could you buffer a jump for Nana to make using this easier? Or maybe buffer a spotdodge around that 6frame window for popo to spotdodge and nana to jump blizz OoS for that? Just trying to think of ways to make this more implementable.

 

[DerfMidWest]

samus is ass. you have to be so patient.
I hate that MU with a passion.
You basically have to close in space really slowly with wd OoS, then try to stay close to her so she can't run away and missile.
But you have to stay far enough that she can't dsmash or upB OoS.
You're pretty much looking for her to whiff dsmash.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Frame data wise it seems to take 19 frames before the first blizzard hitbox will comeout so it won't necessarily be a strong punish tool unless they're doing really unsafe things.

Looking at the frame data alone in this fashion is kind of misleading, and to an extent you address why later on in the post. A lot of the difficulty that comes with punishing things like repeated knees on shield, Ganon fairs, and even Sheik fair walls isn't just that the ICs don't have a lot of time to act between hits, but also that these characters have high short hops and are in a position that ICs have a hard time quickly retaliating against. Incidentally, that's a position that a jumping blizzard OoS from Nana covers quite nicely. For things that push you too far to reaonably punish, it's still a nice way of quickly reversing pressure without the risk of running into an attack.

Hey Fly, could you buffer a jump for Nana to make using this easier? Or maybe buffer a spotdodge around that 6frame window for popo to spotdodge and nana to jump blizz OoS for that? Just trying to think of ways to make this more implementable.

You can't have Popo buffer a spot-dodge unless you're holding down on the C-stick when shieldstun ends, which would also make Nana spot-dodge unless you told her to do something before that, so this would ultimately be both harder and less useful (since you generally don't want Popo to spot-dodge) than just telling Nana to jump in that six frame interval. That said, one of the ways I do execute this is by holding up on the C-stick and trying to release it sometime during that 6 frame interval, since it'll make Nana jump OoS, and Popo won't jump provided you don't hold the C-stick too long. It's a little harder to get Nana to short hop with this method, but that's generally not a big deal since Nana isn't going to be jumping very high anyways (in some ways, Nana's lessened full jump can be more desirable than a short hop).

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Alright, just checking to see if there was an easier way than Y or X.
Nana's full jump height is just above popo sh, right?

 

[Tomber]

And if you people think a frame 6 window is too small then I have a solution for you.

So, as most of you probably know, you can make Nana do a light shield while Popo stands in a normal shield (by some known as a "double shield"). This is done by simply doing a (light) shield without pressing the shoulder buttons (L/R) all the way down. Now, when a light shield is hit it causes more shield stun than when a normal shield is hit. So when doing the double shield trick Nana will be in more shield stun than Popo when both of them are hit by the same attack which means Popo can act OoS before Nana. However, in order to do the shield stun desync we want Popo to be in more hit shield stun than Nana so that we can control Nana without our inputs affect Popo. Doing this trick, therefore, in some way takes us farther away from our goal.

Fortunately, it's possible to do a reverse double shield so that Popo stands in a light shield while Nana shields normally. Because Popo will be in shield stun longer than Nana when hit this technic makes it quite easy to make her jump OoS without affecting Popo. Here is how the trick is done

1. Do a normal light shield with L/R.
2. Press the shoulder button you didn't use for your light shield all the way down (still holding the other shoulder button)
3. Release the shoulder button you just pressed (still holding the other shoulder button)

Now Nana is set to do a normal shield by default while Popo stands in a light shield. You might not see it at first, but if you keep holding down the shoulder button then you'll notice: Nana's shield breaks before Popo's.

Other stuff:
- Because Popo is hit while light shielding he will be pushed farther away when hit than normally. Nana is "magnetically pulled" by Popo so when she jumps OoS she will be pulled back towards Popo while doing a blizzard/ice shot/whatever

- Light shields are bigger than normal shields which means that in some cases only Popo's shield will be hit by an incoming attack. Because Nana's shield isn't hit by this attack she can jump OoS without having to be in shield stun at any time (in some cases you might even be able to punish your opponent while he's in hit stun caused by his own attack).

- Because light shields are bigger than normal shields Popo's shield will usually be hit before Nana's shield. Remember that you want to do your jump input 6 frames before Nana's shield stun ends, not Popo's. Therefore, notice when Nana's shield is hit.

- The timing for when Popo can move OoS depends on how "light" his shield was when hit. You can control the size of the shield by pressing the button more or less down. This doesn't affect Nana once she's doing the normal shield by default.

- Controller rumble ON might make it easier to judge shield stun making this even easier (can't test this because I don't have any controller with rumble:/).


I haven't tested this much against other people, but I think it might be useful.

 

[Smasher89]

Tried the shieldtrick and yes it seems alot easier when doing the l+r trick.
I think it might be a decent mixup to the other 3 ways of shielding.
Because i think people like to use the shield as a visual que,so for example waiting until just before the shield get hit and mixing up with this can possibly force some technical errors.

Had an easier time grabing lv 4 falcon and ganons forward b after using the shieldtrick(even though its on cpus), with nana since she gets desynched and popo just pushed.

Do you have any idea to conserve shieldenergy though since it seems to drain kinda fast?

It kinda reminds me on when i often used to get unexplained nana shieldgrabs on calle ws falco, maybe i accidently hit the timing without knowing why it worked.

 

[Chuckles]

QUESTION: So, I was playing some melee tonight and I played a falco. Every time I tried to down throw down-air CG him he would spot dodge immediately. I assume he was buffering a spot dodge to get out of the cg every time. My question is, how do you deal with this? I usually dont have trouble with the falco MU and this has me frustrated atm.

 

[Tuesday]

QUESTION: So, I was playing some melee tonight and I played a falco. Every time I tried to down throw down-air CG him he would spot dodge immediately. I assume he was buffering a spot dodge to get out of the cg every time. My question is, how do you deal with this? I usually dont have trouble with the falco MU and this has me frustrated atm.

Short hop the dair with Nana.

 

[DerfMidWest]

no, he's buffering the spot-dodge, he can do it out of whichever CG you are doing.
The solution, if he's doing it everytime, it so wait for the spotdodge and punish it, he'll have to start mixing it up to escape, but you can follow wherever he goes.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There are a lot of things you can do about that. Waiting for the spot-dodge is good, especially since you can get a nice, clean grab out of it that translates to a wobble easily. Usmash is good at low percentages, too. Uthrow at really low percentages when you can combo out of it is also fine. At higher percentages, fsmash/dsmash can be good since the opponent might be holding down/down-away to SDI out of a dair CG.

I really like Tomber's addendum to the shield-stun desynch.

 

[Chuckles]

Thanks Fly!