Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smasher89]

How did you end on Dream Land for the first match? Also, I don't really think FD is that good of a stage for ICs against Falcon. I like Yoshi's or FoD better. Anyway
Be more careful with your shield grabbing. In general, don't stay in shield as much as do against Falcon. Focus more on intercepting Falcon's attacks with your own moves and less on attacking OoS. Falcon's Fair and Dair can be countered with ICs' nair or utilt because it takes a while for Falcon's aerials to come out. Side-b can be stopped with f-tilt (or blizzard + other moves), and nair can often be countered by CCing. Practice your wobbling set ups if you want to go for wobbles at 0%. Otherwise don't go for them against a player who can mash out of a grab. Be careful with those full and double jumps.
I like your use of Side-b in the air.

If you are going to BEAST4 then I can show you some technical 20XX ICs stuff there.

FD is because i want to get better on the stage and use some new tools ive noticed should work, wasnt really something i noticed an oppoturnity for during the matches but i think it in general should improve ics techchasegame covering options further away then regular.

Thinking about the uptilt against the dair, if i upthrow, (like the try to upthrow>upsmash) if i switch that to uptilt, should i win the trade?

Side b I know can be punished by reactionshieldgrab, which i tried to go for a bit early every time (since slightly late misses if i recall correcly, and got punished for, also was to early on ftilt when doing that. So i definitly agree that i need to work on that( i think it also can be ccd at some % but not sure on that).

Can i punish that low % falcon upair in the beginning of the first match or should i just not get hit by it. I definity need to be better at starting wobbling, got a free grab at 0% against a puff which got mashed out. Its kinda wierd because ive easier time getting it in hectic situations compared to situations where nothing really happens and i just have to start it on my own.

Probably wont go to BEAST, i want to focus more on thinking about my regional game and improve on that first. Will be watching it on the stream though.


And for the more current teamdiscussion: Tested som random teaming after singles was done, kinda looks effective to sd IF nanas killed, the other team has decent teamcombos and likes to hit your teamate alot. Both climbers does make you much more threatening so starting a killingspree can be done instead of slowly losing the trades due to being kinda ineffective and getting walled out. However this was effective just for some time so can be very gimmicky, but it helps if youre gonna play hardcarry.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Figured I shouldn't make a whole new thread for this. I'm Bayleef, I'm really new and yeah I chose to be an IC main. Nice to meet some other Icies. WA lacks other IC players, I think it's cause Gimpy scare's em off.
/end introduction
What do you think of IC/Falco for a team? Falco can provide the opening icies need to start a wobble/handoff, and there shouldn't be too much friendly fire being done.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Figured I shouldn't make a whole new thread for this. I'm Bayleef, I'm really new and yeah I chose to be an IC main. Nice to meet some other Icies. WA lacks other IC players, I think it's cause Gimpy scare's em off.
/end introduction
What do you think of IC/Falco for a team? Falco can provide the opening icies need to start a wobble/handoff, and there shouldn't be too much friendly fire being done.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Falco is one of my favorite partners for the ICs.
he's good at being able to play on platforms while you control the ground and he is one of the characters that can really assist the ICs.
both characters are also very good at walling and can work well with the "bully" style play (one player wails on an opponent while the other shuts their teammate out)
In the 2 on 1 situation they are also very strong (usually it doesn't matter when you have nana, since you can wobble, but with sopo its amazing) the ICs are great at hitting things up, and falco hits them down really well (to simplify it) the way their moves hit people work very well together. they cover ground well and really do a good job of covering each others weaknesses in doubles.

 

[DerfMidWest]

In the recent tournament my first match was against a Peach... If I won I had to fight another Peach lol, I lost and then beat a Sheik only to find myself against a Samus after that. Bad luck is bad, I really struggle with those two matchups, I can't seem to find the space to enter and hit them, and then I just lose control, salt up and start doing stupid things. Any advices?

didn't see this until now.
Phen covered pretty much everything I was going to say about it, but yeah.
Samus is bad. Honestly, I subscribe to the unpopular opinion that she does better against the ICs than peach if she plays correctly, but a lot of the time you get away with stuff because samus players either don't know the matchup or stop respecting you.
The hardest part is getting in and getting a hit, but after that, you can combo samus forever. she has a lot of trouble getting past your uair and usmash.

you gotta respect her nair. that thing is dangerous.

Samus' love to dsmash again ICs, understandably because it's really good against them, but if you catch it you can punish it with wd out of shield or sh fair/bair.

really the key to that matchup is keeping patient. Samus can and will just missile you for days. You have to slowly work your way in.

Its important with any character when playing samus to keep on top of her, but not get too close. if you're too close, she's got her nair and upB, which act as "get the **** off me" moves, both are punishable if you bait them though. If you end up too far, it's missile hell for you.

working around her tilts can also be pretty difficult, samus players love wd back -> ftilt/fsmash. her down angled moves are tricky for the ICs to move around. If I think samus is going to wd back, I like to stop a little short of her range and throw out sh Ice blocks, a lot of the time people like to panic and go into shield then, which is good for you. just watch out for the upB OoS, because that's gonna desync you and put you in a bad position.

Offstage nana is a dead nana if samus is playing on point, but you have to just be patient. samus is slow when she's in the air trying to edge-guard, so iceblocks will really mess her up. especially if you hit one of her bombs while she's under the stage.
edgeguarding her is tricky, none the less. you need to be patient and look at what she's trying to do. sit out side of upB range with your back to the ledge. if she uses zair, wait to see if she upBs right away, sometimes samus players will use zair, fall back a bit, then upB to try and wait for you to use up you ledge invulnerability or roll to quickly.

that's about all I have.

 

[Vanitas]

Interesting find: Stemming off of Fly Amanita's full charged fsmash regrab trick on spacies (in which they must input survival DI), right before Nana hits the opponent with the Fsmash, instead of regrabbing, you can solo squall hammer with Popo. This will cancel the knockback of Nana's fsmash and it will pop the enemy up (at higher percents) for Nana free to do anything (mixups like fsmash in the other direction, usmash, etc)
I think a regrab is definitely more beneficial, but its nonetheless interesting

 

[choknater]

sup guys

not melee but

i've been playing a lot of p:m and i don't really like ice climbers' changes there haha... seems like their WD is shorter, and no wobbling, so i'd call it a nerf! lol. though they can now reverse blizzard like in brawl

but i main ness in that game now, so sick

 

[Nintendude]

Their WD actually is shorter, yeah, or rather, there's less possible wavedash distances and the 'long' wavedash is not one of them. It's due to the way characters collide with the ground in PM or something like that.

 

[Tomber]

I don't really like ICs in PM either. Nana is weird and kills herself in awkward ways from time to time, and you can't cancel her up-b animation with your own which means that you might end up killing yourself when you try to safe Nana off stage. And yeah, their grab game is pretty weak now. Stuff like f-throw to Nana Fair was the best I could come up with. It's cool how most of their blizzard and ice shots desyncs still work though.

 

[cemo]

i've played PM like twice, I'll probably just play Ganon or something. I do want to try out Sopo only in it though.

 

[choknater]

yeah ic's are definitely very weak compared to both their melee and brawl counterparts

one of the less balanced characters IMO

but it's okay, they can still work

 

[Tuesday]

Hey everyone, just looking for some advice on the Doc matchup. This weekend I went to a tournament and was playing well, and then I played a relatively new Doctor Mario player. I had no experience on the matchup but I figured it wouldn't be too big a deal. But I got bodied. I couldn't keep Nana alive, and I tried all sorts of punish windows and none of them work. Spot dodge down smash and short hopped fairs and nairs were particularly troublesome. Any advice is greatly appreciated. The match was streamed so once the games are uploaded I'll post them for more feedback. Thanks.

 

[choknater]

spacing in this matchup is really difficult, so there are a lot of specifics u have to know... i think a fast way to learn them all, though, would be to watch sets between fly amanita and shroomed. they usually have close sets and they are the best possible concept matches to learn the matchup. just take notes from fly to see what he does right

KoC 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmEgDlihHZY
KoC 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74RmNG7aRQ8

i'm sure there's more out there, but since these are both KoC series, you can see how they evolved

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

sup guys

not melee but

i've been playing a lot of p:m and i don't really like ice climbers' changes there haha... seems like their WD is shorter, and no wobbling, so i'd call it a nerf! lol. though they can now reverse blizzard like in brawl

but i main ness in that game now, so sick

They can't belay OoS desynch in P:M. I physically can't play them in P:M. Choknater, did you play alot of melee ness? They removed his DjC in P:M, i can't cope with it.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

They removed his DjC in P:M, i can't cope with it.

I'm dumb. I was just doing it wrong.

 

[choknater]

They can't belay OoS desynch in P:M. I physically can't play them in P:M. Choknater, did you play alot of melee ness? They removed his DjC in P:M, i can't cope with it.

they did not remove his DJC. rather, they found a way to maintain both his DJC and his brawl jump (rising aerials). if you let go of the jump button before doing the aerial, you can still DJC. he has his N64 dair, which is super fast. so he is a completely buffed character with all his strengths from 64, melee, and brawl, and extra speed.

i dabbled in melee ness and brawl ness. but for P:M, i just couldn't resist playing him with all those crazy buffs!

 

[Smasher89]

The only good thing IC have in PM is that its easier to lcancel fair to get desynched. What makes them way worse then the other games is that they have alot of less desynchoptions, no punishgame compared to other characters, even if you get a grab, weaker recovery when going in highto try to save nana saving nana(doesnt work at all). Nerfed OOSgame for all chars affects them as well. Just pick metanight and nair all day, im suprised ive not seen any tournamentresults that shows that a metaknight that gets lcancel compared to brawl is beyond that games tierliest(i guess pit can work against him though, depending on arrows prio).

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

i dabbled in melee ness and brawl ness. but for P:M, i just couldn't resist playing him with all those crazy buffs!

I SEE IT NOW. OH man Ness is the bes on P:M. Def my new main on it.
But back to icies. They buffed side-b recovery, which is kind of cool i guess. Meh. It's overall a thinly disguised nerf designed to look like a buff. You can control how NaNa throws. Can you do a handoff?

 

[choknater]

hm. if you can really control nana throws, it should now be possible to dthrow or fthrow handoff all the way across the stage, but i doubt that back throws would link like they did in brawl, so there wouldn't be a legitimate infinite

just guessing by theory though, haven't tested in pm

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Been wondering this for awhile.
What do you do against peach? Play a pocket <insert character here>, or just get really good at the matchup?

 

[choknater]

i primarily counter pick sheik, and that was my dedicated counter pick at evo. unfortunately i still lost to Eval on day 2

if they are a dual main (darkatma, alan) i will pick fox. if i'm confident they don't know the matchup, i'll pick young link.

i know the matchup is possible. wobbles is extremely good at it. but i didn't like the way i had to play in order to win so i resolved to pick something a little more intuitive

 

[TheRealFluid]

Hey guys,

How does Fly do this Squall Hammer OoS into desynced blizzard?

http://youtu.be/OTFEtXj4qA0?t=3m

thx

 

[choknater]

it's pretty easy lol, you just jump out of shield and side b quickly

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Hey guys,

How does Fly do this Squall Hammer OoS into desynced blizzard?

http://youtu.be/OTFEtXj4qA0?t=3m

thx

I just re watched that specific thing like 20 times. I think while Nana was still getting out of shieldstun, popo begun squall hammer (which is very possible) then used the desynch blizzard.
I've done this out of Pivot, OoS idk tho.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

it's pretty easy lol, you just jump out of shield and side b quickly

That's what I was thinking. Wasn't sure if you could do that and it be certain nana wouldn't join in.
My post about the shieldstun was wrong. Idk how nana changed blizzard direction tho

 

[choknater]

nana will always blizzard in the direction popo is facing. in that case, fly used squall toward the left, so nana followed

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I am working out the details on doing matchup analysis' with MICH from ProImpactPlayers(from Two Climbers, Two Hands) for new ice climbers players. I would like to hear what you guys think would make a video like this helpful. My idea is to have a brief overview of the matchup at the start with accompanying gameplay that demonstrates the concept being currently discussed then analyze a top level match slowly to analyze what they are doing and why. please let me know what you guys think of this idea.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Great idea, make sure you stress that whatever is in the video's won't always apply to all matches. And cover what to do against advanced techniques and approaches(i.e. wavehine, turnips and float-cancelles, sheik SHFFL pressure, Marth fairs, etc etc).

 

[choknater]

nice lols always good to see new content

 

[cemo]

I didn't know MICH still played! So you'd take a match, point out what they're doing and why? Matchup analysis is always useful, and there isn't really resources for that like there are for other characters.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

MICH works nights so he does not come to events very often, he has been doing some Mario 3D World Let's Plays on http://www.youtube.com/user/ProImpactPlayers lately. He is very rusty and has old man johns every time i see him but he understands a lot of the basics from his years of experience so I thought it would be a good contrast to my new knowledge but lack of the many years of experience.

 

[DerfMidWest]

PM ICs are dumb.
Doc is a *******, you just kill him dead pretty much. Make him approach you and punish his sub-par options and crappy approach.
Peach is annoying, but not impossible. you just need to play differently.bait her into being above you, don't get faired.

 

[john!]

people who don't main peach have a strong tendency to dsmash excessively. a month ago i watched trail beat a good player who tried to counterpick him with peach by basically avoiding his aerials and waiting for him to dsmash, then punishing the dsmash. even peaches with matchup experience will do this from time to time, that **** is hardcoded into our DNA.

on the other hand, if the peach is neglecting to dsmash enough then you will want to hang out just outside her dash attack range and wavedash in for a grab/uair/dsmash/jab/whatever. a lot of IC's are afraid to do this because peach can dsmash in response, but it definitely works if you space correctly.

 

[choknater]

Dsmash is a threat, but peach spacing fairs is the real killer!!

 

[cemo]

Remember to teach Peach the magic float height by always punishing her for floating too low or too high.

 

[choknater]

yeah the magic float height is pretty much an unbeatable position vs ic's lol

 

[KingDozie]

I need help in he peach matchup im losing to FC aerials especially Fair and DJC Nair,Dsmash,Peach edgeguarding with Fair and Nair, Dash attack, and Turnips.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

shield aerials and dash attack (angle shield to not get poked), avoid turnips, accept the fact that you're going to get edge-guarded 99% of the time and experiment with lots of different ways of recovering

 

[DerfMidWest]

peach's FC fair -> dsmash is 100% safe on your shield. if she connects fair, keep your shield up because that dsmash in unavoidable.
you can't buffer a roll out of it either.

the best thing is to wait for the dsmash to end and then try to punish. be careful with wd OoS, because a lot of peach's will be looking for that.

 

[Tomber]

peach's FC fair -> dsmash is 100% safe on your shield. if she connects fair, keep your shield up because that dsmash in unavoidable.
you can't buffer a roll out of it either.

http://youtu.be/h2t2LJE1dx0?t=2m30s

*runs*