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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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Nov 4, 2007
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K so I was on one of the side Yoshi's Story platforms, Nana was on the ground below me and I had captain falcon grabbed (with Popo).

I wasn't sure what to do, so I did up throw > nana full hop dair, and it popped Falcon right next to me for further abuse.

Situational, but worth keeping in mind? I imagine it could be done on any character by varying your timing.
 

Oracle

Smash Master
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depending on percent you can just input the full hop and pummel while nana comes up, which gives you all of your good options. Otherwise fh fair with nana would probably work better than dair since you can jab reset or techchase
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Aug 24, 2007
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If I was on the inner side of a platform on Yoshi's, had an opponent grabbed, and Nana was directly below me and in my control, I might input jump (with Y/X) -> jump -> down -> L/R. That way, Nana would waveland right next to me as I start a dthrow and I could do standard grab stuff on the platform.
 

Meme

Smash Journeyman
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Yup... WD out of shield helps a lot, it sort of improved my Marth matchup not that I win them all anyway but it's very useful.

Also for edge guarding, some think everyone know but remember you can Shield DI Marth's UpB on the edge.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 12, 2006
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Hey Nintendude, are you still in touch with pyh189? If so you should show him this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n03ckU8WMg&feature=g-subs-u

You others should take a look too I guess, hah.

Also, I didn't get to record the trick I've been talking about a few weeks ago. I still plan on making a video, though. The more I play around with it, the more potential I think it has.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
LOL i watched the whole thing but i was hoping you had practiced it so much that you could even speedrun the jigglypuff challenge fight at the end ;D
 

Tomber

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Haha, yeah. I wanted to improvise a little at the end, but the outcome could have been better I guess.
I'm not really a Falcon player, and then, when i got hit by the f-smash, I was like "**** it". Perhaps I could practice and speedrun the jigglypuff match, but it would take a lot of time as I only get to fight her when I get a complete which I don't really get that often. On the other stages you can just SD and try again when you're practicing.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
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Feb 23, 2006
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Shoot more ice blocks. Also try and recognize how he approaches when he's grabbing you. If you can see it coming you can just stuff him with pretty much anything. If you aren't able to react or get around it in time, you probably are playing too close to him.
 

Nintendude

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Don't shoot them so close then. The point of ice blocks is to get Marth in the air, force him to give up some ground, or to stop him from dash-dancing. You can do this safely from somewhat far away b/c ICs have such good ground speed to close the gap quickly when there's an opportunity.
 

choknater

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u either wanna be right next to marth, our outside of his range. never let him get into that position or he will get his momentum going. we can't wavedash forward in that range, so blizzard is our only move that combats that range with little risk. that's why it's good. popo can use nana's blizzard to protect himself when he weaves in and out
 

choknater

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i usually give general advice but i think i'll try a play by play review this time

19:06 in this edge guard situation i would've waited and done turn around dsmash just so i don't mess up any timing

19:29 i guess that might've been a reflex, but recognize when you can't shield grab something haha. i might've just done WD in place, or sh fair at that moment

20:14 i think generally stopping the side-B these days makes us easier to edge guard. even if you made it it would've been a free fsmash. go for the platform :)

20:40 i think it might've been a habit to go for the bair dsmash pressure. recognize when your bair is mis-timed cuz i think you could've reacted to his jump there and hit him with uair

the beginning of the FD match you did a jump forward full hop blizzard which kinda gives falco free reign to establish laser pressure. from that position i would've most likely started off by wding to center stage or discouraging lasers with ice blocks right away

22:02 dash attacking to try to catch him from the air there is really risky. he could hit you out of it and it's very easy to miss with that. i would go for positioning, like shoot an ice block or wd forward after he lands to use pokes that outrange his moves.

22:40 i would've fsmashed there for sure. he di'd wrong so he would've died. but even if he di'd properly his percent was high enough were he would be forced to double jump and recover somewhere

23:02 nana was with you so no need to go for a bthrow follow up there. even if you felt that he might mash out of the grab, any throw would've been better because bthrow brings him back to center stage.

24:00 edge hog asap! he couldn't have made it back

24:08 i thought you were rolling to set up a desynch. wavedash forward is bad in that situation because falco can throw any move out and it will connect. cover your approach when he is on the ground in front of you. wd forward is kinda bad in the neutral game, esp if you haven't conditioned him to respect your space

24:37 you can jab reset there and react to any direction he rolls and grab



overall pretty good haha. i'm happy bc this is the first time i've watched you play and i like what i see. sry i was just nitpicky with mistakes that i spotted. your decision making is solid, but i think where your reactions in certain situations where you can get free damage need work. also the falco didn't really know what he was doing too well xD
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Ya I played much better in my second set vs Eggz, I lost but he is a much better player and I played closer to my skill level, the full hop blizzard was because i missed my shorthop and thought he was going to laser, so I was going for the pressure, I prolly could have done that on reaction instead if I would have just calmed down a little.

The whole fd match I was just kinda trying to style on him cause of how easy the game on yoshis was and almost lost because of it. I definitely need to work on my technical play and my punishes though, thats true. My set vs Eggz is near 1 hour. I'll rewatch those first games with what you said in mind so hopefully I can do better. dont remember if I had a third set streamed, I might have lemme look through it.

Ok 52:12 is where my set vs eggs starts.

So ya thats all the games that got recorded, I think my only other matches were vs a Falcon who didnt know how to DI out of reverse dair cg so I just did that for 8 stocks, and a Fox who just ran at me and shined over and over really fast and I lost 2 quick games due to many many small spacing errors in a row... get outplayed Binx ^_^
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 12, 2006
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Just watched your set vs. Eggz. Here is some of what I noticed off the top of my head.

- You seem to be rather aggressive when you're pressured, starting to throw out moves less carefully then when you got the lead. You got punished quite a few times for wave dashing forward -> smash/grab/whatever. You also got punished a few times because you did an aerial just as were about to land on the ground. I think you should focus a bit more on bait-> hard punish and less on approaching. You seem to do better when doing this.

- You didn't get that many grabs, and when you did, mainly with Sopo, you didn't get much out of them. Eggz was pretty good at avoiding your grabs, so you probably just got out played. I think you should up-throw more when you get a grab with Sopo, though. It's a pretty good throw of choice against fast fallers, and you can get some great follow ups at lower pro cent. Back-throw -> tech chase isn't a bad choice, however, but I find up-throw to be better in many cases to build up damage without have to guess.

- You did a few technical errors; however, I think those were mainly due to nerves. You seemed to be rather up set throughout the set, so, I don't know, try to be more calm. I've only watched this set of you playing, so i don't know if this a problem for you. But if it is, then it's a good thing to work on.

Otherwise, I think you played really well. You did some good decisions/reads and straight-out outplayed Eggz a few times.
 

Binx

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When I die I have a habit of adjusting my glasses, I never really got upset at any point during the match, I didn't really have nerves either since I try not to really have expectations in a match, I just play my best.

I do need some work on different options, thats a good observation on not baiting enough and approaching too often, I tend to depend on hard reads a little too often and I don't really have the consistent punishment game I need to have to make that pay off. Ya I notice that I backthrow a lot and it didn't really do well for me in any of the games I played, as far as the technical mistakes go, thats just me being bad. We only really get one good tournament a month here and I havent had anyone to play friendlies with for a while.

I probably need to do some sorts of drills on my own time vs comps to keep my control sharp.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
3,001
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Popping and locking butt naked.
I realize that these may be very painful to watch because of the poor decision making and bad punishes on my part, but any and all critic is welcome.

Thanks.

vs L
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFqwj-mzMp0

vs L I didnt feel that the level was a bad choice, I just felt I needed to play better so I salted.

vs BlueFoxXT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7YAqGcGLAQ

Game 2 I took him to Yoshi's because I wanted to contain him/give him less room to run.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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- Your spacing and technical stuff were a bit off in these games, e.g. you missed a lot of your f-smashes/dash attacks which you got punished for, so I think you should work on that. Practice technical stuff on your own and try to be consistent with whatever you want to do. Being able to control the length of your wave dashes is great in order to improve spacing too, so you could play around with that. Being consistent with tricks/movement is something every ICs player can work on, though, no matter level.

- You did a lot of roll back -> ice block, which actually worked out for you pretty well. Maybe you could throw some dash dance desync -> blizzard into the mix. The players you played against didn't seem like they knew how to handle ICs tricks so this could give you an edge in future matches.

- One main thing I think you should work on, though, is that you seem to do certain things per automatic. Like, you nearly always shield grabs when your opponent hits your shield, and you often roll back in specific situations. I used to do this myself and it's a hard habit to break. Try to focus on not shield grabbing a few matches and try to figure out what else you can do. You should only shield grab if you see that the other player has mis-spaced his aerial or didn't L-cancel.

When I die I have a habit of adjusting my glasses, I never really got upset at any point during the match, I didn't really have nerves either since I try not to really have expectations in a match, I just play my best.
Okay, that's cool. I probably misread you then. However, you did seem upset one time where to SD'ed. But then again most people get upset by stuff like that.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Can I get some specific advice on how to handle the rushdown or platform game in situations from the videos?

I was trying to land upsmashes based on hard reads but eventually he just started waiting for them and I didn't adapt quick enough to figure out what I should be doing, I think one of my biggest problems is I just dont know what the correct options are in a lot of real situations, the stuff I do works on players who are worse than me but its difficult for me to improve without good practice partners.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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Can I get some specific advice on how to handle the rushdown or platform game in situations from the videos?

I was trying to land upsmashes based on hard reads but eventually he just started waiting for them and I didn't adapt quick enough to figure out what I should be doing, I think one of my biggest problems is I just dont know what the correct options are in a lot of real situations, the stuff I do works on players who are worse than me but its difficult for me to improve without good practice partners.
I think you have the right idea. The thing is that up-smash/u-tilt are rather big commitments; you can't just throw them out and hope they will hit because they are so slow/laggy (not saying you're doing this as it's obvious that you do not). The first hitbox of up-smash appears on frame 14(-18) and have a ton of lag, while the first hitbox of comes appears on 8(-26) but covers less space and you can't do it OoS. It has a lot of lag afterwards too. This means you have to do absolutely sure that those moves will connect when using them, otherwise you get punished. However, being able to know what you opponent is about to do all the time isn't really realistic, so you have to guess or make hard reads from time to time.

Now, you probably know all this. My point is that you maybe should use less up-smash/u-tilt in neutral position/ when you're getting platform camped, and use more SH uair. Take a look at the frame data and hitboxes here:

Up-air
Total: 39
Hit: 6-23
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: <5 27>
Landlag: 32
Lcanceled: 16

U-tilt
Total: 49
Hit: 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21,
23-24, 26
IASA: 42

Up-smash
Total: 49
Hit: 14-18
IASA: 44
Charge frame: 8

Alright, so uair is less laggy compered to up-smash/u-tilt and can even be auto cancelled after frame 27. The hitbox comes out really fast (frame 6+3=9, as you have to be in the air first) and is out for over 60% of the entire animation where the hitboxes of up-smash/u-tilt only last around 5-20% of their animations. You can do uair OoS and you can do it out of a running short hop making the move cover a lot of space because of the long lasting hitboxes. When connecting, it also hits as hard as up-smash/u-tilt in most situations and has great combo value because it isn't laggy.

Also, SH uair reaches higher than up-smash/u-tilt and can poke through the platforms of PS/YS/BF/FoD. In your matches there where a few times were you did a u-tilt under a platform while the other player was right above you. However, the hitbox of u-tilt didn't reach so the other player could just wait for the hitboxes to disappear and punish while you where in lag. With uair he will have to do something as he will be hit otherwise, and if he goes down through the platform you'll still get your hard read.

However, in order to make uair a great move, is has to be auto cancelled. The landinglag of the move is horrible, even when l-cancelled. This can be tricky, however, as you have to input the uair just as you leave the ground when short hopping if you want the auto cancel. You cab't fast fall either. The input window is rather small so this can take some time to get used to, especially if you use the c-stick for your aerials. I do all of my SH aerials with A+control stick because it's really hard to reach "up" on the c-stick in time in order to do a short hop auto cancelled uair. At this point I'm pretty much used to do aerials this way, but if you're not it can be trick as you might press "up" too much on the control stick making the sh uair a double jump uair which is bad.

TL;DR -

Auto cancelled short hop up air is better than up-smash/u-tilt is a lot of situations as it is faster, covers more space, is less laggy (when auto cancelled), and hits about as hard with great combo value. The timing can be tricky, however, especially with the c-stick, but it's a wonderful anti-platform-camping tool and not as risky to use as up-smash/u-tilt for hard reads. I've had great success with this move so far.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
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Feb 22, 2007
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However, in order to make uair a great move, is has to be auto cancelled. The landinglag of the move is horrible, even when l-cancelled. This can be tricky, however, as you have to input the uair just as you leave the ground when short hopping if you want the auto cancel. You cab't fast fall either. The input window is rather small so this can take some time to get used to, especially if you use the c-stick for your aerials. I do all of my SH aerials with A+control stick because it's really hard to reach "up" on the c-stick in time in order to do a short hop auto cancelled uair. At this point I'm pretty much used to do aerials this way, but if you're not it can be trick as you might press "up" too much on the control stick making the sh uair a double jump uair which is bad.
Late u-air is really good. If you land right after hitting an opponent, you actually get out of lag sooner with respect to hitstun (so it combos more reliably into other moves). It serves a different purpose than auto-cancel u-air but it's worth keeping in mind to diversify your game. I usually find myself using it when I need to cover my landings and my opponent is in front of or below me.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Alright I'll use uair more in platform situations. If i let Fox in on my shield, what are some of my safer options? should I roll if I expect a shine? stay in shield and short hop fair? or is there another option I'm not seeing.

Also I've decided to start dthrowing and uthrowing more when I get isolated grabs with sopo or before nana can get back depending on stage position.
 

PB&J

Smash Hero
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Apr 25, 2007
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lawrenceville, GA
Just wanted to say I might play Icies at Apex. I think my sopo game has improved so much . Hope i get to play some of you guys if your going to Apex
 
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