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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm, chu vs boss was a pretty good vid. chu was very aggressive in going for the grabs and smashes. a lot of times i forget how to play like that but watching chu is always a good refresher
anyway, the doc i am aiming to beat is much stronger than boss and uses more tools. if doc (in my case, shroomed) can establish the offensive momentum first, it's really hard for me to get any decent position. doc can't really be punished super hard since he has a good recovery and is both floaty and heavy. i can see why chu's aggressive ic's can beat doc... looks like i'm just gonna have to get better and get more shroomed experience in order to beat him.
but yeah, i think just like chu, i should just disgregard my fear of pills and not be afraid to attack through them. i could just block them, but that reallllly opens him up to approach which is not good.
i realized the reason falco beats doc... it's cuz falco can lock him down. if there's a way to lock down doc with ic's, i'll find it.
anyway, the doc i am aiming to beat is much stronger than boss and uses more tools. if doc (in my case, shroomed) can establish the offensive momentum first, it's really hard for me to get any decent position. doc can't really be punished super hard since he has a good recovery and is both floaty and heavy. i can see why chu's aggressive ic's can beat doc... looks like i'm just gonna have to get better and get more shroomed experience in order to beat him.
but yeah, i think just like chu, i should just disgregard my fear of pills and not be afraid to attack through them. i could just block them, but that reallllly opens him up to approach which is not good.
i realized the reason falco beats doc... it's cuz falco can lock him down. if there's a way to lock down doc with ic's, i'll find it.
Except that you take damage on approach, you have to crouch therefore stop most forward progression, eliminating the whole point of an offensive attack anyway.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I don't think pills are much of a problem in this match-up. They're slow and can be dealt with easily on reaction. For example, you can shoot ice blocks through them; you can light-shield them; if you have a lot of space, you can wavedash back; you can jab/ftilt them; my favorite response is to short hop blizzard into them like we do against Falco's lasers. It doesn't usually lead to much directly, but it still is really good for alleviating pressure and it does put you in a really good position if the blizzard does actually hit Doc.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah, from seeing the chudat vids i realized they're not really a big deal. my mistake vs shroomed in my last set was just sitting in my shield and shooting stuff while not actually approaching. from watching boss, it looks difficult for doc to react to ic's speedy options like wd dsmash and dash attack, even though as attacks they are kinda gambles. still though, it's possible to react to stuff like doc's dsmash, whiffed grabs, and a pill that's fired too close. gotta recognize when to fight and when to block vs doc, the differences are very subtle...
pills do, however, **** sopo lol. sopo cannot get past the grounded pill, so if ur cornered u gotta jump. just bad news lol, doc is very good vs sopo. however, we can evade for days and annoy him :D
pills do, however, **** sopo lol. sopo cannot get past the grounded pill, so if ur cornered u gotta jump. just bad news lol, doc is very good vs sopo. however, we can evade for days and annoy him :D
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i spent like 3 hrs yesterday learning ic's vs doc matchup both ways
i got better
very difficult on both sides
i got better
very difficult on both sides
Played quite well at this weekend tournament and it felt like i got out of a slump or what it´s called XD^^, realized a few very interesting thing about mental play I dont really think has been used in shis way and other stuff.
Got a minor problem that costed me quite alot of situation duels and I know theres a way through it.
Thinking about the options against Marth´s Dtilt, I remember theres a few options that "outprioritices this (spaced fair>dtilt), just not sure which options though, anyone knows what beats the dtilt? (perfect dashgrab/dashattack or something?)
Got a minor problem that costed me quite alot of situation duels and I know theres a way through it.
Thinking about the options against Marth´s Dtilt, I remember theres a few options that "outprioritices this (spaced fair>dtilt), just not sure which options though, anyone knows what beats the dtilt? (perfect dashgrab/dashattack or something?)
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
When a Marth is spamming spaced Dtilt, I desync to have Nana blizzard/ice block/charged smash behind me as a defense and then I rush in and SH fair over it.
You can just skip all the fanciness and just fair.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
im currently using block chasing to initiate offense more often
its quite good
its quite good
PKMTrainerRed
Smash Rookie
does size matter when controlling popo or nana? i mean cuz nana is slightly bigger than popo
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol what? she is?
john!
Smash Hero
fat ***** let herself go after we got married
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You can also beat d-tilt spam by wding into shield while facing backward, then bair oos.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
That requires a full-shield though, Chival.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Just light shield?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
How far does Dtilt push away a light-shield?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Not far.
Great news everybody; I'm going to be trying a new medication soon that could potentially assist me with a lot of my issues including my mood-swinginess and my tremors. So maybe with this assistance the game is gonna start feeling a bit less frustrating and a lot more fun.
I'll let you guys know how it works out.
I'll let you guys know how it works out.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sweet.
Nice to finally hear something from you, Wobbles.
Nice to finally hear something from you, Wobbles.
Hehe I've been busy just working and coming home ultra tired and not having the money even to think about going to any tournaments or whatever, so my motivation to check the boards has been extremely low. I've gotten to play Smash maybe once in the past month so it's been kinda sad times.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sad times indeed.
Well, anyway, while I have you, what's an advisory way to deal with Sheik's SH spaced aerial/needle game?
Well, anyway, while I have you, what's an advisory way to deal with Sheik's SH spaced aerial/needle game?
When you're extremely confident she's going to short-hop you can wavedash in with up-smash, which really seems to be one of the optimal responses. Problem is she has a lot of control over her ground options after these and can just tilt or jab you rather than jump again, so the farther away you approach from the better. You can also WD->shield to bait the f-air or b-air->u-smash out of shield, but honestly I have a lot of difficulty executing it in a way that doesn't trade. Some games I'll hit it constantly, some games I won't get it at all and eat slaps.
Full-jump b-air (rising with the hitbox) should catch her if you're fast enough but you won't actually outrange her b-air or f-air, it would have to surprise her. I'm pretty sure.
Getting her to stick her hand or foot into a de-synced blizzards is pretty good if you can manage it because 99% of the time the Sheik player will jump immediately afterward which really should be a free u-air for you.
Honestly I'm kinda "meh" at dealing with Sheiks. I think the real secret is to stay away out of the range where she can hit you without diving in recklessly, get a feel for her pattern, and exploit it when she thinks she's safe.
Full-jump b-air (rising with the hitbox) should catch her if you're fast enough but you won't actually outrange her b-air or f-air, it would have to surprise her. I'm pretty sure.
Getting her to stick her hand or foot into a de-synced blizzards is pretty good if you can manage it because 99% of the time the Sheik player will jump immediately afterward which really should be a free u-air for you.
Honestly I'm kinda "meh" at dealing with Sheiks. I think the real secret is to stay away out of the range where she can hit you without diving in recklessly, get a feel for her pattern, and exploit it when she thinks she's safe.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
How do I play against IC's as Fox? What stages should I strike?
I thought I had a good handle on this match-up and maybe I do but I got 2-0'd by an IC's last weekend. I usually try to stick to large non-FD stages such as Dreamland and Kongo Jungle to abuse my superior mobility but either I wasn't playing well or I don't know the match-up as well as I thought I did.
I thought I had a good handle on this match-up and maybe I do but I got 2-0'd by an IC's last weekend. I usually try to stick to large non-FD stages such as Dreamland and Kongo Jungle to abuse my superior mobility but either I wasn't playing well or I don't know the match-up as well as I thought I did.
Binx
Smash Master
You can read the match up guide IC vs Fox, it has a lot of information on how to beat Fox's options(which will tell you what we are afraid of), I guess most of the advice I can give is the same as I would give to any character, just try really, really hard not to get hit, and when you can get in just hit the turbo button.
If you can't L cancel vs the double shield make sure you space your aerials to hit the back of the shield, and follow up with shine pressure. Shines are amazing in the match up pretty much all of the time, mix up when you follow up on popo or nana after a shine and confuse the IC player, you should be able to do either relatively safely as long as you don't make any tech mistakes.
If the IC player is really playing defensive and you can grab just make sure to throw immediately, forward through is really great if they are synched. Up throw or back throw are great if one climber is trying to catch up to the fight and you want to isolate them.
Well, many ICs like the bigger stages. I also wouldn't say that Fox has superior mobility, at least not by much. ICs are probably one of the 5 most mobile characters, I certainly never feel bogged down.
The matchup, luckily, is largely determined by the fox because of his powerful approach/defense options. Everything you do has a counter, but fox has so so many options. Bairs on shield, grabs, and usmashes into shield are all strong, you just cant get predictable.
What were you getting hit by, and did you get hit while camping or approaching?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
the matchup is very dynamic and can't always be played the same way
however fox has the ability to set the pace. ic's really have to feed off what he is doing, so fox can usually win if he is good at mixing it up. it's also very stage dependent
i am a more aggressive ic's player, so i prefer small stages like yoshi's and FoD so that the fox can't really run away. my losses to foxes have been on dreamland where the fox is campy, but there are other ic players who are good at dealing with that and will be more reserved with their uairs, and also know how to camp fox back.
there are a lot of matchup specific tools that fox can use well vs ic's... especially drillshine. learn how to l-cancel against both characters/shields. if u get good enough to l-cancel a drill vs light shields, regular shields, not shielding ic's, etc... you can do very well against them.
however we can fsmash/blizzard your drill so just dont run in and do it all the time. same goes for any of fox's approaches. this is why i said the matchup is dynamic
fox can camp platforms on dreamland and come down with timing bairs and drills.
fox's throws are good as well, as long as u grab popo. use this to ur discretion, cuz it's a bit of a gamble. if u grab nana, popo just has to shield and counter attack you after any of your throws.
ban fd cuz our combos are godlike there. however, if you don't mind fd, fountain is also a good ban cuz ic's kill fox so easily there, and the various platform heights are good for ic's rhythm.
i used to think battlefield was good cuz it lessened fox's recovery options, but i've discovered that the platform heights are good for fox so the matchup is pretty even there.
however fox has the ability to set the pace. ic's really have to feed off what he is doing, so fox can usually win if he is good at mixing it up. it's also very stage dependent
i am a more aggressive ic's player, so i prefer small stages like yoshi's and FoD so that the fox can't really run away. my losses to foxes have been on dreamland where the fox is campy, but there are other ic players who are good at dealing with that and will be more reserved with their uairs, and also know how to camp fox back.
there are a lot of matchup specific tools that fox can use well vs ic's... especially drillshine. learn how to l-cancel against both characters/shields. if u get good enough to l-cancel a drill vs light shields, regular shields, not shielding ic's, etc... you can do very well against them.
however we can fsmash/blizzard your drill so just dont run in and do it all the time. same goes for any of fox's approaches. this is why i said the matchup is dynamic
fox can camp platforms on dreamland and come down with timing bairs and drills.
fox's throws are good as well, as long as u grab popo. use this to ur discretion, cuz it's a bit of a gamble. if u grab nana, popo just has to shield and counter attack you after any of your throws.
ban fd cuz our combos are godlike there. however, if you don't mind fd, fountain is also a good ban cuz ic's kill fox so easily there, and the various platform heights are good for ic's rhythm.
i used to think battlefield was good cuz it lessened fox's recovery options, but i've discovered that the platform heights are good for fox so the matchup is pretty even there.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
@ Wobbles: I usually just try to camp shield until I decide that the Sheik is using an unsafe amount of f-tilt. Then I'll CC -> running JC grab her. If the Sheik is d-smash-happy, I like to shield and bair oos or do a short wd in and wd out quickly then wd in and punish if she took the bait.
Also, SH uair is pretty **** against Sheik if you can react to her well. The biggest problem I run into is needles from platforms, actually.
Also, SH uair is pretty **** against Sheik if you can react to her well. The biggest problem I run into is needles from platforms, actually.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Sheik's spaced aerials are good, but easy to deal with unless you're near an edge; just roll backwards and blizzard. It's really hard for her to punish that if you do it after she leaves the ground. Needles aren't easy to punish, but they tend not to lead to much on ICs and they don't do a lot of damage unless charged, so I don't worry about them very much.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Those are some good points, Fly.
Yeah. I'm not too great at the matchup. I generally suck at the being patient part. But I managed to take a friendly off Amsah's Sheik, so I must not be doing everything wrong.
Yeah. I'm not too great at the matchup. I generally suck at the being patient part. But I managed to take a friendly off Amsah's Sheik, so I must not be doing everything wrong.
These are the kinds of posts that made Isai quit.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Hey! I had a positive record against Amsah's Falco, including a number of salty matches that he wanted on Stadium. That must count for something. 
And his Sheik is good, by the way.
And his Sheik is good, by the way.
He is probably trying all kinds of new random stuff vs not-that-great players. I do it alot when playing against people that I would easily beat in tournament, and it is just to learn new tricks. Then when I get shoutouts in tournaments and these kids say "OMG GREAT GAMES MAN we should practice more often! I did alot better against you than I expected, I was happy to take alot of those wins off a player like you!"Hey! I had a positive record against Amsah's Falco, including a number of salty matches that he wanted on Stadium. That must count for something.
And his Sheik is good, by the way.
This makes me want to quit. I lost because I was trying new stuff/not grabbing, not because Marthmain17 was giving me any actual trouble, but he will go talk about it to all of his friends and neighbors.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Sounds like someone's salty.
Then you should totally quit, it would be a reasonable reaction.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Why would he be trying new things out in a salty match? He was salty because I beat his Falco on Stadium, so I proceeded to beat him twice more on the same stage.
Lol.
No I understand the feeling. It's a bit annoying but at the same time it's totally understandable; when people have an opportunity to play somebody they respect they want to bring their A-game and seeing said letter rewarded gives you pretty good feelings. Especially when you think you might not get to play that person in tournament b/c they are higher seeded and you are not that good.
So yeah it puts unfair pressure on you to win even in friendlies but that pressure exists in tournament too. MIGHT AS WELL GET USED TO IT.
No I understand the feeling. It's a bit annoying but at the same time it's totally understandable; when people have an opportunity to play somebody they respect they want to bring their A-game and seeing said letter rewarded gives you pretty good feelings. Especially when you think you might not get to play that person in tournament b/c they are higher seeded and you are not that good.
So yeah it puts unfair pressure on you to win even in friendlies but that pressure exists in tournament too. MIGHT AS WELL GET USED TO IT.