Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Z1GMA]

You know B-canceled Fair. You can also cancel the lag of a rising fullhop Fair if you toss an item.
If you pick up one of Link's bombs with a rising Fair, a buffered throw skips the lag.

 

[Opana]

Not positive but I think holding back during a wizkick cancel allows you to act a little faster. When trying to uair the same time as I would holding back I'd buffer a nair that came out pretty much right after inputting uair.

Also, you can zdrop an item when you land with fair but the lag is still there. This can be useful as the arm holding it the the one attacking and extended. This allows us to drop an item off the stage without being off the stage.

Oh and his final smash cancels the lag too lol.

 

[Zargerth]

I discovered that you can use any aerial to get back on stage with Ganondorf; it's similar to "Flipman" back in Brawl, but there are two main differences:

1. You can use any aerial move to get back on stage
2. Landing lag seems to carry over, at least I haven't managed to pull any of the aerials off without their landing lag

As for their usefulness:
Dair is just for lulz, since it doesn't have an active hitbox before (or after) landing
Bair seems to be situational at best
Fair is IMO one of the most useful ones here; I believe you can slightly alter the distance. By saying this I mean that depending on your timing, you can land right at the ledge, or slightly further away from it. Note that if you decide to land right on ledge, Fair's hitbox may not come out.
Uair works similarily to "Flipman", but this iteration seems to have landing lag
Nair: this one is tricky to pull off, from what I've gathered only the first kick comes out before landing

How I do this technique with Wii U Pro Controller: While holding on to the ledge, I press back (opposite direction to the stage) to activate the ledge dropping, then immediately flick the control stick towards the stage, press X to jump and flick the C-stick. It's possible to do this technique at least with Bair, Dair and Fair without the C-stick. Since the C-stick is closer to jump buttons in Wii U Pro Controller than in Gamecube Controller, I can just slide my finger from X-button to C-up to perform Uair ASAP. This is how I, by accident, discovered that you can get back on stage even with Nair.

I'm still practicing this, as I haven't seen any other Ganondorf player utilize this technique: might be because it's not that rewarding/practical, when considered the effort needed to pull it off.

 

[lavagolem123]

I haven't confirmed it for myself, but I heard from a friend of a D-air -> U-Smash true combo with Ganon that does somewhere around 30something~%. Frame cancelling and whatnot supposedly. I saw a gif of Falcon cancelling landing lag from his Knee by dashing to followup and he told me the concept is similar to that. Anyone else hear about this?

Edit: Apparently Falco can do it as well with his Dair and still follow up with other attacks as shown in Izaw's video.

 

[Opana]

Could you explain a bit more? I can't seem to act any sooner.

 

[lavagolem123]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/search?q=dair+cancel

I'm on my phone right now, so I don't have a direct link but that's the reddit search my friend did. It's the first link. It's easier to watch than to explain. It seems you have to land on specific frames to cancel the move.

 

[Opana]

I think I've actually done this unknowingly trying to dair chain Bowser. I even mentioned it in here earlier.

Awesome.

 

[JmacAttack]

It's got to be frame perfect. You have to land at the exact moment the first frame of the attack hits your opponent, which causes the the landing lag to start taking place during the hitlag frames. I did manage to do it, but it's hard, and likely impractical, because shielding or dodging the attack ruins everything.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PheZa6s4lVo

This combo works on more characters now thanks to this, although I haven't tested many it's not 0td on all. Wizkick breaks warios bike so if he is without it I believe it's 0td although on mega man he can make it back.

Also this is a good option out of flame choke if anything.

 

[Opana]

Amazing news, falling through a platform while standing on it allows this to be done easily, and fullhop dair works when under the low plats as you end up right on the plat. May work from low to high plats too.

 

[Eccentriczebra]

Got some useful tech with upsmash. When your opponent is cornered you can do upsmash, dash, upsmash and then repeat or mix it up to throw your opponent off guard. Sometimes I corner my opponent, dash, up smash, dash, up smash again or ftilt. If they know I'm going to cancel upsmash and try to roll I do upsmash then downsmash.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Amazing news, falling through a platform while standing on it allows this to be done easily, and fullhop dair works when under the low plats as you end up right on the plat. May work from low to high plats too.

You're doing this on Battlefield lower platforms? I just tuned in, but I haven't been able to do this consistently yet.

 

[JmacAttack]

Got some useful tech with upsmash. When your opponent is cornered you can do upsmash, dash, upsmash and then repeat or mix it up to throw your opponent off guard. Sometimes I corner my opponent, dash, up smash, dash, up smash again or ftilt. If they know I'm going to cancel upsmash and try to roll I do upsmash then downsmash.

Did this in a recent game. 42% damage in 2 hits.

This is why they don't give Ganon true combos. ;P

 

[Z1GMA]

GYRUDO (Gerudo > Gyro Down Toss)
Ok, so I messed around with ROB's Gyro today, and Ganon can do some freaky stuff with it.

While holding the Gyro:
Gyrudo > pick up > FToss
I recommend Smash Tossing as it deals more damage and comboes more reliably during the FToss.
It does a whopping 36%.
Best thing about it, except the nasty damage, is that it works from like 0 to 80%, so it's not really a %-dependant combo.
Kills very early by the ledges as the FToss hits ROB while he's already close to the Blast Zone.

There are more combos as well, but they either aren't as reliable, does less damage, does only work on very low %s, or doesn't true combo.

Gyrudo > Wizkick 35%

Gyrudo > iDA (weak) + pick up > FToss > iDA (Strong) 60% (Not very reliable.)

*sob*

 

[Opana]

So something weird happened, IIRC I used aerudo after a Morton just fell through a platform. I slammed him into the plat like normal but he went through it, got it on replay just need to get a charger to fecord off my gamepad.

On those unsuspecting, assuming this can be reliably pulled off, it may lead to a platform fall dair cancel.

Also, I buffered aerudo out of hitstun and during the ganoncide I seemed to dip down before suiciding with them as if I was falling normally at first. I was right over the edge but went below it before he initiated the downward slam. If this works as described above then a good read may make the difference between a cide or a whiff, hard to tell. Can get this in a vid tonight.

Also! @ Zargerth mentioned tipman with all aerials so I explored it. You can hit them with dair and get on the stage as well as choke over the ledge for a nice cide surprise.

 

[Zargerth]

Also! @ Zargerth mentioned tipman with all aerials so I explored it. You can hit them with dair and get on the stage as well as choke over the ledge for a nice cide surprise.

In other words, you can use Dair to get back on stage while it's active? Does the Dair landing lag cancel, of which you and Jmac were talking about earlier, work or does it have to be a platform? Could you tell me more about the Flame Choke? All I know is that when holding on to a ledge, you can back jump and use Aerudo (I hope I'm using this right!) to get back on stage.

 

[Opana]

In other words, you can use Dair to get back on stage while it's active? Does the Dair landing lag cancel, of which you and Jmac were talking about earlier, work or does it have to be a platform? Could you tell me more about the Flame Choke? All I know is that when holding on to a ledge, you can back jump and use Aerudo (I hope I'm using this right!) to get back on stage.

It is very difficult to land with it but when I do it was just short of a cancel I think, maybe with slightly off timing although unlikely.

Yes that is what I mean anout choke, I don't recall being able to do this un brawl but eithr way assumed it was common knowledge. Figured I'd bring it up anyway though.

 

[Jebus244]

I main falcon, please don't shun me! I love Ganon though, and if I could make him competitive, I would use him in tournies against players I wanted to shine on. That said, I've been trying things out with him and since choke is techable, I've been trying to find a way to use it on stage. Short hop choke or choke as soon as you leave the ground. Has this been tested? I've been trying to tech out of it and it doesn't seem like you can. It may just be what needs to be used, and it seems to work on most characters, except small ones.

 

[Opana]

I believe it can be teched and combined with the heavier end lag it's not something I'd overuse.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I main falcon, please don't shun me! I love Ganon though, and if I could make him competitive, I would use him in tournies against players I wanted to shine on. That said, I've been trying things out with him and since choke is techable, I've been trying to find a way to use it on stage. Short hop choke or choke as soon as you leave the ground. Has this been tested? I've been trying to tech out of it and it doesn't seem like you can. It may just be what needs to be used, and it seems to work on most characters, except small ones.

I wouldn't worry about choke being techable. Just learn to read when your opponent techrolls inward (which you can cover with buffered F-smash or Flame Choke) and you'll be fine.

More importantly, focus on consistent edgeguarding. Ganondorf has the most lethal edgeguarding in the game, and it's something to take advantage of.

 

[Jebus244]

I believe it can be teched and combined with the heavier end lag it's not something I'd overuse.

But how? In the grounded version they are struck to the ground, which can be teched, but in the aerial version, Ganon physically choke slams them. They can tech the choke slam?

 

[Jiom]

Amazing news, falling through a platform while standing on it allows this to be done easily, and fullhop dair works when under the low plats as you end up right on the plat. May work from low to high plats too.

Another easy way to do it once you get the timing down is to short hop and rising bair/uair* at the peak of your short hop, this should give just enough height for dair's hitbox to come out.

*It seems easier to to rising uair for bigger characters like bowser and to use rising bair on smaller characters.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

GYRUDO (Gerudo > Gyro Down Toss)
Ok, so I messed around with ROB's Gyro today, and Ganon can do some freaky stuff with it.

While holding the Gyro:
Gyrudo > pick up > FToss
I recommend Smash Tossing as it deals more damage and comboes more reliably during the FToss.
It does a whopping 36%.
Best thing about it, except the nasty damage, is that it works from like 0 to 80%, so it's not really a %-dependant combo.
Kills very early by the ledges as hit as the FToss its ROB while he's already close to the Blast Zone.

There are more combos as well, but they either aren't as reliable, does less damage, does only work on very low %s, or doesn't true combo.

Gyrudo > Wizkick 35%

Gyrudo > iDA (weak) + pick up > FToss > iDA (Strong) 60% (Not very reliable.)

*sob*

I'm not quite catching you with what you mean by "pickup", help me out here Z1G.

 

[Jiom]

I'm not quite catching you with what you mean by "pickup", help me out here Z1G.

He simply means grabbing the gyro again after your throw it down to hit after side b, since after you throw the gyro downwards it is still in range for you to pick it up.

As for the last combo he mentions, you need to pick up the gyro with your dash attack and hit him with the same dash attack.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm not quite catching you with what you mean by "pickup", help me out here Z1G.

Pretty much what Jiom said. After he's hit by the DToss, the Gyro is in range for you to buffer picking it up and then buffer throwing it.

 

[fromundaman]

But how? In the grounded version they are struck to the ground, which can be teched, but in the airial version, Ganon physically choke slams them. They can tech the choke slam?

Yes you can and it sucks because the opponent actually recovers while you're still in the ending animation of the move and can punish.

 

[Jebus244]

Yes you can and it sucks because the opponent actually recovers while you're still in the ending animation of the move and can punish.

Ganon just can't catch a break...

 

[Thani]

I thought the 1.0.4 update that reduced some of his landing lag also made the aerial Flame Choke untechable? At least, that is what the wiki for Ganondorf currently states.

 

[fromundaman]

I thought the 1.0.4 update that reduced some of his landing lag also made the aerial Flame Choke untechable? At least, that is what the wiki for Ganondorf currently states.

So did I, but my training partner teched it as Kirby 2 days ago and was able to punish with Fsmash. I didn't even understand what happened.

Of course then I got him back by walking into Final Cutter, teching and punishing with Ftilt.

(If you ever get Final Cutter camped by Kirby, walk into him, tech and punish.)

 

[Zargerth]

BTW, does anybody know if there's a way to b-reverse (or wavebounce, b-reverse with the momentum) aerial Wiz Kick: you know, Ganondorf goes to the direction he is looking at, but can you do it to the opposite direction? I can't get down-b reversal work the same way as with, for example, R.O.B or DK.

 

[Z1GMA]

Also, don't forget that Banana Choking still excists. (Gerudo > Banana Down Toss)
It doesn't work if you use Glide Tossing, as it is too slow.
However, it works with Studder Step Down Toss if done sorta Frame Perfect.
If you just throw the banana down, it misses Diddy, so it has to be a SS DToss.
(To Studder Step DToss, just input the same command as you do when you iDA.)

Some good combos are:

Banana Choke > Gerudo (Good for damage at any %.)
Banana Choke > Fsmash (Good for damage and killing at any %.)
Banana Choke > Gliding Usmash (Good for damage and can combo further into aeirals at lower %s.)
Banana Choke > SHFF Dair (Good for damage and can combo further into pretty much any quick attack at low and mid%s, but is kinda unpractical compared to the three options above. Only go for this one if you feel like a beast.)

Feel free to add this, @ Ray_Kalm

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Thanks for this, I wasn't too sure that banana choking still existed.

So stutter step is just an IDA with banana after the choke?

 

[Z1GMA]

Thanks for this, I wasn't too sure that banana choking still existed.

So stutter step is just an IDA with banana after the choke?

Exactly. The Dash gets canceled by the Down Toss.
Unlike Jump Canceled Glide Tossing, SSDT is faster but doesn't give as much horizontal boost to the character throwing it.

 

[Opana]

@ Zargerth , I don't believe it can be done but recently I've been experimenting with a pivot off stage aerial wizkick which still allows enough time to recover.

So I know I've said this before but I really like using fair to eat through projectiles like Aura Sphere. Nothing has beat it that I've hit.

Also, when you break out of Yoshi's egg lay egg if you use wizkick you'll do the quake only. I find this useful for avoiding air follow ups or disrupting ground ones.

 

[Zargerth]

@ Zargerth , I don't believe it can be done but recently I've been experimenting with a pivot off stage aerial wizkick which still allows enough time to recover.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here, would you mind shedding some light on that one?

 

[Opana]

Well you know how you can wizkick spike by jumping off the stage? Ptetty much the same thing but out of a pivot, meaning it goes the opposite direction towards the stage. Plus, it slide down the walls of Omegas like the Boxing one.

 

[Zargerth]

I get it now, thanks!

 

[Opana]

Been using it more and it puts you in a position to grab them with dark dive, and while no stage spike potential overall I'd prefer to launch them away than give them a chance to tech.

 

[Naroghin]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned above but Ganon can thunderstorm with the use of platforms (notably BF). SH>rising Dair allows him to land on any platform with no lag even though the hitbox comes out low enough to hit the entire cast. In many cases it's a guaranteed followup to any throw if they don't tech (provided the trajectory puts them on/over a platform, obviously), and if they do tech, the cancelled lag means you can respond in any way you want. This is not reliant on perfect timing or connecting either (unlike Izaw's lag cancel) and can be done off shield or without hitting anything. Also, this covers all the parts of each platform on BF and can be done by dropping through a platform as well, meaning the lower platforms can be approached from the top platform.

I have been developing this quite a bit in the lab against lvl 9s. It's been difficult as of late, though, because I can't get them to touch the platforms anymore.

 

[Opana]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned above but Ganon can thunderstorm with the use of platforms (notably BF). SH>rising Dair allows him to land on any platform with no lag even though the hitbox comes out low enough to hit the entire cast. In many cases it's a guaranteed followup to any throw if they don't tech (provided the trajectory puts them on/over a platform, obviously), and if they do tech, the cancelled lag means you can respond in any way you want. This is not reliant on perfect timing or connecting either (unlike Izaw's lag cancel) and can be done off shield or without hitting anything. Also, this covers all the parts of each platform on BF and can be done by dropping through a platform as well, meaning the lower platforms can be approached from the top platform.

I have been developing this quite a bit in the lab against lvl 9s. It's been difficult as of late, though, because I can't get them to touch the platforms anymore.

You mean his dair lag cancel?

Also we can fh rising dair zss out of her utilt.