Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Oldiz]

I believe I've found an infinite if you are a double ganon team. If you hit a side special, they can actually be grabbed before they hit the ground. With two ganons you can chain these together. Kinda strict timing, considering that they hit the ground pretty quick, but might be useful once you are left with only one opponent.

 

[Urthclaw]

I was discussing this with a friend, and thinking about different characters recoveries that the ledgesnap ganoncide might work on and we had a random thought. What happens if you ganoncide Pac-Man and hit his trampoline?

 

[adom4]

I was discussing this with a friend, and thinking about different characters recoveries that the ledgesnap ganoncide might work on and we had a random thought. What happens if you ganoncide Pac-Man and hit his trampoline?

I think Pacman bounces of the trampoline while we fall to our death.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So I kinda made a big discovery. It involves 2 things.
1. There are two frames of ledge snap vulnerability.
2. When you hold down while offstage flame choking toward the ledge, you don't immediately grab the ledge (release down to grab ledge).
So you can cover the ledge by keeping the flame choke hitbox out. (Remember aerial flamechoke's hitboxes are active frames 19-31) Teleport recoveries to the ledge are actually edgeguardable as long as you read/react to the startup of your opponent's recovery. The idea started as theorycraft, but then I tested it in training mode on Sheik and Palutena and it works, and used it in an online Anther's Ladder match against a Sonic. I'm going to assume it works on other teleporters (Zelda, Mewtwo) and covers ledge on low recoveries without dangerous hitboxes (Robin, Pit/DPit, Dedede, Olimar, Villager, Megaman, ROB, Greninja, DHD, BowJow, Rosaluma).

1. I'm pretty sure Trifroze gets the credit for that, and
2. In the absence of grab armor, I can't see side-B beating out the teleport hitbox for characters like Sheik and Zelda. Mewtwo and Palutena though, that's a different story. And an altogether unsatisfying one.

 

[MezzoMe]

Sheik and Zelda don't activate their hitboxes when grabbing a ledge.

 

[Jyro]

1. I'm pretty sure Trifroze gets the credit for that, and
2. In the absence of grab armor, I can't see side-B beating out the teleport hitbox for characters like Sheik and Zelda. Mewtwo and Palutena though, that's a different story. And an altogether unsatisfying one.

I didn't say that I discovered that there are two frames of vulnerability. Trifroze's video inspired me to combine the concept of ledge vulnerability with Ganon's lingering hitbox, which would activate on the first frame of vulnerability. This only works for characters teleporting directly to the ledge from below. Shiek and Zelda's hitboxes don't activate when teleporting directly to the ledge.

Edit: Attached an explanation video

 

[PRGN]

That Side-B ledge thing sounds pretty useful.

For the lylat cruise / castle siege warlock punch thing i'd prefer to do a reverse-momentum warlockpunch instead.
I don't know if there's already a name for it, but what i mean is that you can do an offstage warlock punch and re-grab
the ledge. Pretty safe (if done correctly), and works on pretty much any stage

Ledge-jump > Direction+2ndJump > Warlock Punch > Up-B (to get back on ledge)

 

[Blobface]

I'm really starting to like SHFF F-air. It's safe on shield, and while it's not watertight safe a la Sheik F-air, but Ganon needs whatever sparse safety he can get.

 

[Swoops]

I'm really starting to like SHFF F-air. It's safe on shield, and while it's not watertight safe a la Sheik F-air, but Ganon needs whatever sparse safety he can get.

This. I keep coming back to FAir, shortcomings and all.

It's mainly slow and pretty punishable on whiff, but pretty safe on shield. Was testing on sonic's shield and was avoiding a dash grab or dash attack punish.

ALSO, someone else needs to test to prove I'm not crazy, but FAir seems craaaaazy disjointed. Tested it against bumper recently and his whole arm was going through it o.O

 

[Blobface]

ALSO, someone else needs to test to prove I'm not crazy, but FAir seems craaaaazy disjointed. Tested it against bumper recently and his whole arm was going through it o.O

I can confirm this, same goes for B-air too actually. Ganondorf's aerials (bar N-air) are going to beat basically anything in a direct exchange.

 

[Z1GMA]

Jab Cancel Denial
If C.Falcon wants to jab jab grab you, you can avoid this by buffering a bair, unless he's very close to you.
Bair's Landing Animation gives you a nice leanback thus the grab wiffs. This grants you a free jab, tilt, grab.

 

[jmanup85]

I was playing my nephew last night and he was learning Mario and I was Ganon. Then something weird happened at the 1:05 mark of this vid. Who can explain this?

Edit: thanks to Kyogokudo for uploading this for me

 

[MagiusNecros]

I want to know what happened too. Far as I know we can't cancel WF with a jump.

 

[Z1GMA]

I was playing my nephew last night and he was learning Mario and I was Ganon. Then something weird happened at the 1:05 mark of this vid. Who can explain this?

Edit: thanks to Kyogokudo for uploading this for me

Never seen anything like this.

 

[Oldiz]

You seem to have clanked with the fireball.

 

[jmanup85]

I know I hit the fireball but I've been testing it for a few days now and clanking with a fireball doesn't ever stop my momentum like that even when I mash the jump button. The next thing to test with be a fireball in conjunction with a ledge to see if it creates a pseudo aerial ledge cancel. If it doesn't work then it's entirely possible that this is a one time thing or that there's some super weird way to ledge cancel aerial wizkick.

Edit: I can't test this right now but does anyone here know what happens when you hit 2 things with aerial wizkick? I hit the fireball and then quickly also hit Mario. The animation also looks like the one when aerial wizkick is already over. Maybe hitting 2 things causes this? One projectile and one player? Or 2 projectiles or 2 players? Man I wanna find the cause of this.

 

[PRGN]

I tried to copy the same situation and couldnt find out how it happend =/
It could be a desync of hdmi and the wireless gamepad or something like that.
I remember having a 4p local match with some friends where my Ganon once just randomly warped in mid-air.
It was saved in the replay aswell.

 

[Blobface]

The first hit of N-air can kill confirm into U-air when fastfallen. Make sure you hit with the sweetspot hitbox though, the one positioned right around the first air burst. You'll know if you're hitting with it if they pop almost straight up.

 

[_Magus_]

The first hit of N-air can kill confirm into U-air when fastfallen. Make sure you hit with the sweetspot hitbox though, the one positioned right around the first air burst. You'll know if you're hitting with it if they pop almost straight up.

Awesome! I love anything having to do with UAir. This does sound a tad situational though.

 

[Blobface]

Awesome! I love anything having to do with UAir. This does sound a tad situational though.

Actually, it's even easier. You can fastfall the first hit to hit with the late hitbox and confirm into F-tilt for a kill.

 

[adom4]

I 've started to use D-throw at the ledge at around 90-100% a lot more, i think it's worth the slight loss in damage over F-throw just for the chance that they'll DI badly (usually confirming an U-air or in lower % a F-air).

 

[Swoops]

Tipman U-Air as a Spacing Tool

Alright, so I want this to be fairly visible so people pay attention and use it. Please start experimenting with tipman in footsies, because it helps with a lot of fundamental issues that Ganondorf has.

The reverse hit of UAir will connect against a surprising amount of characters while standing. I haven't gone through every character extensively (and if anybody wants to contribute to this feel free) but I was able to hit an idle standing Pikachu with certain portions of the move. If we use that as a base, we can assume that a large portion, if not all, of the characters taller than Pikachu will be hit. At least in an idle standing position.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/

According to that height chart, a huge chunk of the cast should be getting hit by reverse UAir while grounded. This is pretty easy to see in application. In addition to hitting grounded characters, it can stuff a variety of aerial approaches if spaced/timed correctly. The leg portion has a slight disjoint, and lingers for at least a few frames. It has the ability to stuff Sheik's FAir and Pikachu's quick attack if timed correctly.
__________________
Moving on to shield safety, with the new patch this can be relatively safe on shield. The late hitboxes can have a damage of 6-8%, or according to the new shield stun formula, 5/6 frames of shield stun. In order to figure out frame (dis)advantage, we can do:

25f (when the move first autocancels) + 2f (soft landing just to be generous) - 15f (the frame the UAir connects) = 12f of recovery.

So we know that it takes us 12 frames from the instance the move hits to when we are free to act again. Using this:

5f (opponent unable to act) - 12f (recovery) = -7 disadvantage

That's an amazing disadvantage. Keep in mind dropping shield is 7f, which would make it even after a shield drop. Even something like an OoS jump FAir from Sheik is 9f. Keep in mind though that this is assuming a couple things. One is that the UAir is hitting on frame 15. The other is that you are landing right on the frame that UAir autocancels. However even if you start moving the numbers around you don't really get much more than say a -10 advantage, which is almost only frame perfect OoS aerial or jab punishable.

Overall I think this is a pretty useful tool. It's a low-ish risk option that can make the opponent want to sit still for a second in order to space meatier things like FAir, NAir, and BAir.

Pros

• Relatively safe, low risk
• Active, can stuff troublesome top tier approaches.
• Sets up for other moves, Flame Choke, BAir, etc.

Cons

• Sloooow (comparing this to a 5-10f aerial, you have to have this move already out on the field)
• Middling (just okay) range
• Lower reward compared to the rest of Ganon's kit

So let me know what you guys think. I haven't really got the time to sit down and start abusing this versus other players. It's definitely not the answer to everything but I'm curious to see if other Ganons will have success using it in situations that they may struggle with right now.

 

[jmanup85]

Tipman U-Air as a Spacing Tool

Alright, so I want this to be fairly visible so people pay attention and use it. Please start experimenting with tipman in footsies, because it helps with a lot of fundamental issues that Ganondorf has.

The reverse hit of UAir will connect against a surprising amount of characters while standing. I haven't gone through every character extensively (and if anybody wants to contribute to this feel free) but I was able to hit an idle standing Pikachu with certain portions of the move. If we use that as a base, we can assume that a large portion, if not all, of the characters taller than Pikachu will be hit. At least in an idle standing position.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/

According to that height chart, a huge chunk of the cast should be getting hit by reverse UAir while grounded. This is pretty easy to see in application. In addition to hitting grounded characters, it can stuff a variety of aerial approaches if spaced/timed correctly. The leg portion has a slight disjoint, and lingers for at least a few frames. It has the ability to stuff Sheik's FAir and Pikachu's quick attack if timed correctly.
__________________
Moving on to shield safety, with the new patch this can be relatively safe on shield. The late hitboxes can have a damage of 6-8%, or according to the new shield stun formula, 5/6 frames of shield stun. In order to figure out frame (dis)advantage, we can do:

25f (when the move first autocancels) + 2f (soft landing just to be generous) - 15f (the frame the UAir connects) = 12f of recovery.

So we know that it takes us 12 frames from the instance the move hits to when we are free to act again. Using this:

5f (opponent unable to act) - 12f (recovery) = -7 disadvantage

That's an amazing disadvantage. Keep in mind dropping shield is 7f, which would make it even after a shield drop. Even something like an OoS jump FAir from Sheik is 9f. Keep in mind though that this is assuming a couple things. One is that the UAir is hitting on frame 15. The other is that you are landing right on the frame that UAir autocancels. However even if you start moving the numbers around you don't really get much more than say a -10 advantage, which is almost only frame perfect OoS aerial or jab punishable.

Overall I think this is a pretty useful tool. It's a low-ish risk option that can make the opponent want to sit still for a second in order to space meatier things like FAir, NAir, and BAir.

Pros

• Relatively safe, low risk
• Active, can stuff troublesome top tier approaches.
• Sets up for other moves, Flame Choke, BAir, etc.

Cons

• Sloooow (comparing this to a 5-10f aerial, you have to have this move already out on the field)
• Middling (just okay) range
• Lower reward compared to the rest of Ganon's kit

So let me know what you guys think. I haven't really got the time to sit down and start abusing this versus other players. It's definitely not the answer to everything but I'm curious to see if other Ganons will have success using it in situations that they may struggle with right now.

If I'm reading this all correctly then the good far outweighs the bad. The only thing is that it needs to be tested for practicality and things like that. I'll re-read this (because I'm an idiot and kinda slow lol) and try to implement it and see what I find. I'll let you know of any results.

 

[Blobface]

Aerial Wizkick Shieldbreaks are legit now. 45 or so damage between degen, quake, and the kick. You can F-air/U-smash someone's shield, Aerial Wizkick several seconds later, and still break their shield. Be warned though, against especially tall characters (Rosalina, Heavies, etc.), the quake will sometimes shieldpoke. Against medium-small sized characters, enjoy your free 0% RWP kills.

Edit: Did some quick testing, and based off of this height ranking this should never shieldpoke on everyone Captain-Falcon-Height and below with the possible exceptions of DK, and Dedede. Note that this assumes an absolute worst-case scenario where after they get hit with the kick their shield is at the smallest size it could be.

I'll get more thorough testing later.

Rank Position Character Average Height
1 Stand Ganondorf 5.625
2 Stand Bowser 5.55
3 Stand Rosalina and Luma 5.15
4 Stand Captain Falcon 5
5 Stand Samus 4.925
6 Stand Donkey Kong 4.925
7 Stand King Dedede 4.85
8 Stand Wii Fit 4.8
9 Stand Zelda 4.75
10 Stand Shulk 4.7
11 Stand Marth 4.7
12 Stand Zero Suit Samus 4.675
13 Stand Palutena 4.65
14 Stand Lucina 4.6
15 Stand Link 4.575
16 Stand Robin 4.51
17 Stand ROB 4.5
18 Stand Ike 4.475
19 Stand Mewtwo 4.45
20 Stand Sheik 4.425
21 Stand Peach 4.4
22 Stand Pit 4.4
23 Stand Dark Pit 4.4
24 Stand Yoshi 4.4
25 Stand Falco 4.375
26 Crouch ARM King Dedede 4.3
27 Stand Bowser Jr 4.2
28 Stand Luigi 4.2
29 Crouch Ganondorf 4.05
30 Stand Sonic 3.95
31 Stand Fox 3.9
32 Crouch Bowser 3.9
33 Stand Little Mac 3.875
34 Stand Mario 3.85
35 Stand Pac Man 3.775
36 Stand Mega Man 3.75
37 Stand Lucario 3.7
38 Crouch Samus 3.65
39 Stand Dr. Mario 3.6
40 Stand Charizard 3.575
41 Stand Villager 3.525
42 Stand Wario 3.525
43 Stand Ness 3.45
44 Stand Toon Link 3.45
45 Stand Diddy Kong 3.25
46 Crouch Donkey Kong 3.22
47 Crouch HAND Shulk 3.21
48 Crouch HEAD King Dedede 3.2
49 Crouch Mewtwo 3.2
50 Crouch Rosalina and Luma 3.175
51 Crouch Palutena 3.11
52 Stand Duck Hunt 3.1
53 Stand Mr. Game and Watch 3.075
54 Crouch ROB 3.01
55 Crouch ARM Charizard 3
56 Crouch Falco 2.91
57 Crouch Zelda 2.9
58 Stand Olimar 2.9
59 Stand Jigglypuff 2.875
60 Crouch Link 2.855
61 Crouch Pac Man 2.85
62 Crouch ARM Captain Falcon 2.85
63 Crouch Wario 2.76
64 Crouch Bowser Jr 2.75
65 Crouch HEAD Shulk 2.71
66 Crouch Fox 2.7
67 Crouch HEAD Captain Falcon 2.675
68 Crouch Toon Link 2.65
69 Stand Kirby 2.65
70 Crouch Pit 2.575
71 Crouch Dark Pit 2.575
72 Stand Pikachu 2.555
73 Crouch Robin 2.55
74 Stand Meta Knight 2.5
75 Stand Greninja 2.475
76 Crouch Zero Suit Samus 2.45
77 Crouch Peach 2.35
78 Crouch Diddy Kong 2.325
79 Crouch Luigi 2.31
80 Crouch Yoshi 2.3
81 Crouch Marth 2.3
82 Crouch Ike 2.3
83 Crouch HAND Mega Man 2.21
84 Crouch Duck Hunt 2.2
85 Crouch Lucina 2.2
86 Crouch Villager 2.175
87 Crouch Little Mac 2.11
88 Crouch Olimar 2.1
89 Crouch Dr. Mario 2.1
90 Crouch Meta Knight 2.075
91 Crouch Mario 2
92 Crouch (guess) Sonic 1.91
93 Crouch Lucario 1.9
94 Crouch HEAD Mega Man 1.8
95 Crouch HEAD Charizard 1.75
96 Crouch Ness 1.65
97 Crouch ARM Sheik 1.61
98 Crouch Greninja 1.6
99 Crouch Pikachu 1.575
100 Crouch Jigglypuff 1.3
101 Crouch Mr. Game and Watch 1.175
102 Crouch HEAD Sheik 1.15
103 Crouch Kirby 1.15
104 Crouch BUTT Wii Fit 1.075
105 Crouch HEAD Wii Fit 0.975

 

[jmanup85]

Blobface is right. I spent about 6 hours sparring last night and could consistently pop a shield on Small-ish characters with that move. It has hilarious and brought manly tears to my eyes and very very salty tears to my sparring partners lol.

 

[Ghostbone]

This is probably known but I just randomly found it.
If you full hop fair, you can't do any aerials/jumps before you land, but you can buffer any special attack which will come out the frame you land and you won't get any fair landing lag.

 

[_Magus_]

This is probably known but I just randomly found it.
If you full hop fair, you can't do any aerials/jumps before you land, but you can buffer any special attack which will come out the frame you land and you won't get any fair landing lag.

Yes, this is known. Thanks for contributing though.

 

[WwwWario]

I've recently started to use Flame Choke in a way I haven't used it before, and it has worked wonders.

Basically, when I get an opponent off-stage, I jump backwards after them, making them expect a reverse Up Air or a Back Air, thus making them often Air Dodge. But instead, I simply jump past them, then Flame Choke back towards the stage and Ganoncide them. Most of my opponents never saw it coming

 

[Showyoucan]

I might as well add this to the thread. Already known tech but I tried to be really specific about this tech so I insist using it for mindgames :D

You have your 5 options when you are on the ledge: Ledge Getup/Climb, Ledge Jump, Ledge Attack, Ledge Roll, and finally Drop down from the ledge. This tech uses the "drop down from the ledge" option to get on the stage with no lag. There are 3 ways to do this:
Method 1: Frame Perfect(?) drop down > jump
The hardest of the other 2 options. Your inputs have to be clean and precise. You have to drop down (possibly not fast falling) and the FAF (first active frame) you have to press jump. Best option for tricking your opponent but not the most consistent of the 3.


Method 2: Drop down > jump > F-air/B-air and land on the first 6 frames of F-air/B-air
According to the Kurogane Hammer website, Ganondorf's F-air and B-air Auto-cancels on the first 6 frames of the move. (A-Landing) Using this info, we can make it more easier for Ganondorf to land on his feet which makes method 2 superior than method 1 but there is one thing that makes this method not as useful. From what I tested, this works only(?) on stages that have a straight vertical wall like Omega Wii Fit Studio, Omega Windy Hill Zone, Omega Hyrule Temple and etc... Ya, Omega stages that have straight vertical walls makes this method useful but it seems very unlikely to use this method in a tournament set unless you request stages that have straight vertical walls.


Method 3 (more consistent): Drop down > jump > B-air immediately
Using B-air immediately after the jump seems to move Ganondorf's body forward a bit and it takes 22> (23 to 36 frames of animation?) to auto cancel the animation. Your opponent can see the B-air so it's kinda obvious but not if they don't expect it. It's more consistent than Methods 1 and 2.
I also recommend that for method 3, have one of your L/R trigger buttons set to "jump" to make it more easier to do the method. I tried this method with X as my jump and it's hard to get my B-air right away from my C-Stick after pressing jump on my X button.

Here is a video showcasing this tech (starts from method 1 > method 2 > method 3):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yvtmfvGFB4

 

[A-9]

No idea if mentioned, and I am a bit lazy, but if you flamechoke Villager and he doesn't tech, you can have a guaranteed downsmash. Just spam the c-stick.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Hmm, unless that's the result of a change, I'm not sure that's true. I do know it's true for Olimar, though.

 

[Opana]

Aerial Wizkick by a stray gyro knocks us out of the animation for potential follow ups off wizkick.

Pk fire clanks with dtilt. I know wizkick flys over it but it's a cmmittment you may not want to make, unless you're doing it on reaction.

Wizkick spiking mega man can save us with his rush and send him at an angle where he misses rush.

If you're up a stock vs. Sheik ganoncide her 2 frame teleport ledge snap vulnerability.

Late wizkick can go through arcfire, and if timed right we can fly over it like pk fire.

If someone has a jumping airdodge habit you can double jump bait them and dark dive uppercut

Usmash can true combo into a dark dive uppercut kill on halberd depending on di and potentially on sour spots/characters, I can't test stuff very well myself.

If we double jump from the highest tree on dh we can act as we touch the ground. Doing this into warlock punch can counter potential smash punishes.

Dash attack->footstool is the only potential fstool setup I can find aside from low percent dairs. I want to utilize his fstols but there's like no practical set ups smh.

 

[Blobface]

Dash attack->footstool is the only potential fstool setup I can find aside from low percent dairs. I want to utilize his fstols but there's like no practical set ups smh.

Guaranteed Footstools are inherently limited by F7 jumpsquat and low jump height unfortunately. Is it possible to footstool someone out of the vulnerable frames on their aridodge?

 

[Opana]

Idk, I wanna say yes but I can't test.

Question though, is that 20 frame period where they can't tech after an fstool a thing with grounded fstools?

 

[_Magus_]

Idk, I wanna say yes but I can't test.

Question though, is that 20 frame period where they can't tech after an fstool a thing with grounded fstools?

Even if that were true, I can't see Ganondorf's kit being able to take advantage of that sans Up Air. Though that would be amazing if it is true regardless.

 

[Blobface]

If you wanted to test grounded footstools and techs you could have Ganondorf footstool someone and use Wizard's Dropkick immediately afterward. Do it on a fastfaller like Fox and have them DI down to hit the ground ASAP.

 

[Opana]

I can't test with anyone so Idk.

If we flame choke into a Greninja's hydro pump shooting them upwards we shoot up and ganoncide them.

I have footage of that and the duck hunt wizkick to wp bait if you guys are interested, and if so I'll post it at the parts they happen.

 

[Attila the Hun]

So did that ledge jump instant wizkick slide off get patched out? If so, profound sadness.

 

[Opana]

I don't think so

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Edited out.