Ganondorf 2.1-3.0 Video Archive [Closed]

Zujx · Nov 10, 2013

Nguz95 · Nov 10, 2013

Behold the Arty Vortex. Look up Arty on Youtube. He is probably one of the most if not the most active Ganon main right now. You should also look up some of Kage's old Project M videos. Unfortunately he stopped playing PM after 2.1, but he does have some good matches.

Hungry Headcrab · Nov 10, 2013

Here's more of the Arty Vortex: http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/469578532 at 1:54:00 (vs SFAT, Big House 3)

JUGGERNAUT043 · Dec 16, 2013

good play, but how about some more wins lol

Zujx · Dec 25, 2013

Just wanted to add some videos to this from S@X in the most recent week "junebug" went to the grand finals with his dorf didn't clinch the win but, there a good watch

Grand Finals Vs. Rob http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRl3TP8Okec
Losers Finals Vs. Metaknight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPVovW9gV3E
Winners Finals Vs Rob http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9zhGapwN7Y
Winners Semis Vs Marth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFv5IdNDvU (Awesome comeback)
Bracket Vs Metaknight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHWC0sFoTNk

JUGGERNAUT043 · Dec 30, 2013

Zujx said:
Just wanted to add some videos to this from S@X in the most recent week "junebug" went to the grand finals with his dorf didn't clinch the win but, there a good watch

Grand Finals Vs. Rob http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRl3TP8Okec
Losers Finals Vs. Metaknight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPVovW9gV3E
Winners Finals Vs Rob http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9zhGapwN7Y
Winners Semis Vs Marth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFv5IdNDvU (Awesome comeback)
Bracket Vs Metaknight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHWC0sFoTNk

didnt he actually have to use diddy kong to win some of those because dorf just culdnt do it?

Hungry Headcrab · Dec 30, 2013

JUGGERNAUT043 said:
didnt he actually have to use diddy kong to win some of those because dorf just culdnt do it?

He used Diddy as a secondary, yeah. I don't think it was a matter of 'Dorf not being able to do it exactly, most players have a backup just to mix things up or for certain matchups. Some matchups are better than others regardless of your main.

Solid Ganon play though, the set against Meta Knight was great.

FlashingFire · Jan 1, 2014

Here's a couple of friendly sets. The Ness games were really intense.
FlashingFire (Ganon) vs The_Irish_Dude (Mario)
FlashingFire (Ganon) vs Zeej (Ness)

Nguz95 · Jan 1, 2014

FlashingFire said:
Here's a couple of friendly sets. The Ness games were really intense.
FlashingFire (Ganon) vs The_Irish_Dude (Mario)
FlashingFire (Ganon) vs Zeej (Ness)

Those look really good. I only have a few minor suggestions, but hopefully they can help you out, especially against a projectile heavy opponent.

I saw you using wizards foot to recover onstage. While this may seem like a good idea, it only works if your opponent is guaranteed to get hit. It's terribly unsafe. I would recommend bair instead, as it has very little endlag in comparison to his other moves.

You should use the Arty Vortex more. Since nair has so many autocancel windows, using it to swat projectiles or pressure your opponent and then following up with a jab or an ftilt is almost always safe.

You should definitely shield grab more. Ganon's dthrow is probably one of the best, it not the best throw in the game. They basically took Sheik's Melee dthrow and put it on Ganon. Bair is the most consistent follow-up, but uair works better on floaties. If they di it poorly you can also get a fair off, which is always nice. You can also chain throw fast fallers for a very long time with this throw.

This goes with the shield grab note, but I noticed you daired a lot out of shield. That's going to get you grabbed a lot unless your opponent used a laggy move (like Ness' dash attack). Out of shield you should wavedash more so you can jab/ftilt them to get yourself away. Bair is also a good option if they are behind you. If you really need the quick hitbox you can even nair to start an Arty Vortex going.

A note about side-b. I saw you use it a lot, which is fine as long you know you're not over-commiting yourself. I would also recommend switching all your side-bs to short hop choke slams. The aerial side-b is much harder to tech than the ground one is. Also, you were not using side-b to start tech chases. This is super important, as most people won't fall for the forward wizard's foot more than a few times. Wait a little to see which direction they tech, and use the wizard's foot to catch them. Its reversible now, so all you need to do is point and shoot at them and they're dead. You can also jab them at low % after hitting the choke slam to set up a grab.

In terms of strategy, I saw you over-commit a lot, especially against the Ness. When facing anyone with Ganon, you should not be forcing the issue. Wait until they make a move, then choose your reaction accordingly. Throwing out fairs and stuff will usually get you punished hard. This is why the arty vortex is really good. Throwing out the nair makes people commit to something because they think you are vulnerable. That's when you hit them with the jab or the ftilt. You're baiting them, which is something Ganon is surprisingly good at. Just try to be more patient against people that are more passive. Let them commit to something, and then smash them.

Again, this is all pretty minor stuff. Your Ganon looks good, so keep it up!

Hungry Headcrab · Jan 1, 2014

Sweet comeback in that set against Ness. Intense stuff.

I would suggest you use bair to stuff that recovery though. I saw you run away and try and set up smashes a couple times when he was loading it up, which didn't seem very effective. Bair, however, has enough disjoint to beat PKT2 outright, which works out really well because most Ness players I've played like to shoot right at you if you're in range. Another benefit of this strategy is that you don't have to rely on so many hard reads, you just need good timing.

CORY · Jan 1, 2014

Nguz95 said:
You should use the Arty Vortex more.

can you explain the arty vortex to me? i've heard it name dropped around here a lot, but i never figured out what it was...

Nguz95 · Jan 1, 2014

CORY said:
can you explain the arty vortex to me? i've heard it name dropped around here a lot, but i never figured out what it was...

When you fast fall a nair, you land inside the autocancel window for the move. That means the move has considerably less endlag than norman, even l-canceled. As a result, if you don't l cancel and instead jab or ftilt your opponent, you can get the move out ridiculously fast. That's the Arty Vortex. It's a really good way to either eat a projectile or bait your opponent into approaching. It's good even if you don't make contact with the nair.

Hopefully that helps.

CORY · Jan 1, 2014

: o ok, cool. thanks! gonna keep that in mind next time i play!

FlashingFire · Jan 1, 2014

Nguz95 said:
"Pretty minor stuff"

Interesting, thanks for the feedback! The minor stuff is often the stuff that counts, so even though Ganon is only a secondary for me, I'll make sure to think more about what I commit to. Plus I've never heard of the Arty vortex before, I'll have to try that out.

Hungry Headcrab said:
Sweet comeback in that set against Ness. Intense stuff.

I would suggest you use bair to stuff that recovery though. I saw you run away and try and set up smashes a couple times when he was loading it up, which didn't seem very effective. Bair, however, has enough disjoint to beat PKT2 outright, which works out really well because most Ness players I've played like to shoot right at you if you're in range. Another benefit of this strategy is that you don't have to rely on so many hard reads, you just need good timing.

I can definitely see what you mean - this was one of my first battles against a good Ness, so it took me while to realize I shouldn't be directly challenging his PKT2 that much. Once I started to back off and punish the landing, things went much better, though I imagine an earlier Bair could finish stocks quicker.

~tgm_Zeej · Jan 1, 2014

Commenting on the Ness stuff, because I'm the type of dude who name-searches himself:
Ness' PKT2 is actually invincible for the first 9 frames after activation. The hitbox coverage is pretty good relative to his body, but the disjoint is very minimal. Most of Ganon's edge-guarding options should be able to beat it, provided they are spaced properly and hit after frame 9. However, if Ness slides along a platform, the move cancels a huge chunk of its recovery. The move also sweetspots the ledge when moving downwards. So there are situations where Ness is completely untouchable if you let him activate PKT2, meaning you'll have to bait him on the edge rather than punish him directly.

So basically, if Ness goes high, I'd try a late Uair, Bair, or even Fair/Ftilt if the Ness made an exceptionally poor decision.
If Ness goes towards the ground, I'd recommend trying Side B or a grab unless you're really sure that your punish will hit after frame 9 and before frame 25ish or so when it ground-cancels.
If he goes down for the edge, either try an exceptionally ballsy edgehog, or just let him have the edge and adjust your spacing accordingly.

Of course, the best way to kill him is to just not let him PKT2 at all, but that's not quite as easy as it was in previous Smash games.

The punish windows aren't exceptionally small, but if you haven't played the match-up much, Ness can get away with some seriously questionable recoveries. Which I'm sick of seeing people (including myself) get away with, so I hope that helps.

Hungry Headcrab · Jan 2, 2014

Tatsuman said:
Commenting on the Ness stuff, because I'm the type of dude who name-searches himself:
Ness' PKT2 is actually invincible for the first 9 frames after activation. The hitbox coverage is pretty good relative to his body, but the disjoint is very minimal. Most of Ganon's edge-guarding options should be able to beat it, provided they are spaced properly and hit after frame 9. However, if Ness slides along a platform, the move cancels a huge chunk of its recovery. The move also sweetspots the ledge when moving downwards. So there are situations where Ness is completely untouchable if you let him activate PKT2, meaning you'll have to bait him on the edge rather than punish him directly.

So basically, if Ness goes high, I'd try a late Uair, Bair, or even Fair/Ftilt if the Ness made an exceptionally poor decision.
If Ness goes towards the ground, I'd recommend trying Side B or a grab unless you're really sure that your punish will hit after frame 9 and before frame 25ish or so when it ground-cancels.
If he goes down for the edge, either try an exceptionally ballsy edgehog, or just let him have the edge and adjust your spacing accordingly.

Of course, the best way to kill him is to just not let him PKT2 at all, but that's not quite as easy as it was in previous Smash games.

The punish windows aren't exceptionally small, but if you haven't played the match-up much, Ness can get away with some seriously questionable recoveries. Which I'm sick of seeing people (including myself) get away with, so I hope that helps.

I always thought PKT2 had really solid disjoint, good enough to the point where I stopped going for any aerials aside from bair because of how easy it is to land. I should probably start mixing in fairs and dairs, ha.

I have yet to play a really solid Ness main, and none of them have been very good at mixing up their recovery so just about all of this is new information to me. Hopefully it will all come in handy at some point, thanks!

~tgm_Zeej · Jan 2, 2014

Hungry Headcrab said:
I always thought PKT2 had really solid disjoint, good enough to the point where I stopped going for any aerials aside from bair because of how easy it is to land. I should probably start mixing in fairs and dairs, ha.

I have yet to play a really solid Ness main, and none of them have been very good at mixing up their recovery so just about all of this is new information to me. Hopefully it will all come in handy at some point, thanks!

No problem.
It's a tricky move to be sure. It moves pretty fast, so he gets more milage out of those 9 frames than you would think.

For reference, here's the hitbox data on PKT2 from GMaster's thread:

FlashingFire · Jan 2, 2014

Here's a video that might interest you guys. I'm playing Roy, but in the second game some really funny stuff happens when Zeej is recovering. Specifically, there's a gimp around 6:40 and I get lucky with a Bair hitbox around 8:05. Just goes to show that PKT2 isn't impossible to challenge. And counterpick Ness to SV lolz.

Also, might I suggest that the OP use collapse tags to tidy things up a bit? For reference, [.collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse.] without the dots looks like: [collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse]

Zujx · Jan 2, 2014

FlashingFire said:
Also, might I suggest that the OP use collapse tags to tidy things up a bit? For reference, [.collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse.] without the dots looks like: [collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse]

Thank you for the suggestion, I cleaned up the original post and it looks much nicer now!

Also, Thanks for the videos everyone I've always found gannon matches to be very interesting to watch. You guys have definitely been helping me with my own game.

Keep them coming represent for the oldmandorf

~tgm_Zeej · Jan 2, 2014

FlashingFire said:
Here's a video that might interest you guys. I'm playing Roy, but in the second game some really funny stuff happens when Zeej is recovering. Specifically, there's a gimp around 6:40 and I get lucky with a Bair hitbox around 8:05. Just goes to show that PKT2 isn't impossible to challenge. And counterpick Ness to SV lolz.

Also, might I suggest that the OP use collapse tags to tidy things up a bit? For reference, [.collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse.] without the dots looks like: [collapse=stuff]stuff[/collapse]

That balloon is the devil, and so is Roy. l=<

Spralwers · Feb 25, 2014

Not a match, but you'll enjoy it nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw5OYaFRvGU

FlashingFire · Feb 25, 2014

So Kage played at Apex 2014.

Kage (Ganondorf) vs CT Denti (Ivysaur)

Spralwers · Feb 27, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poWtERXY_fk#t=15

This is so awesome. I wanna see Eli dedicate himself to Ganon at tournaments for a little while. He stuff he does with edge/platform canceling aerial wiz kick is terrific, he makes good use of DACUS to close space and even bait people into attacking (since it has such low ending lag), and overall makes good use of Ganon's new tools. As cool shenanigans with aerial down B, look at 4:11 and 50:37.

Edit: I asked Kage on FB about his match with Denti and he said he doesn't really play PM much, doesn't know much about it, and entered apex for fun basically. Thanks to 3.0 tether mechanics Ganon can edge guard tethers pretty easily and he didn't even know that. Kage has good fundamentals but since he hasn't learned PM, you can't use his matches to evaluate Ganon's potential.

Bazkip · Feb 27, 2014

Spralwers said:
Thanks to 3.0 tether mechanics Ganon can edge guard tethers pretty easily

What's the best way to go about that anyways, it's been mentioned several times but I haven't really seen a proper explanation. Is it the whole grab the ledge so they autojump when they pull up and then follow up on that? Or just stomp on them before they pull up?

Spralwers · Feb 27, 2014

Bazkip said:
What's the best way to go about that anyways, it's been mentioned several times but I haven't really seen a proper explanation. Is it the whole grab the ledge so they autojump when they pull up and then follow up on that? Or just stomp on them before they pull up?

You edge hog so that when the character pulls up with their tether, they're forced to jump, which I think the PM devs call the forced tether jump. As soon as they do that jump, the easiest thing you could do is ledge hop uair, but I think fair works too.

The forced tether jump is like the jump recovery, except:
-No invincibility frames
-No IASA frames (new as of 3.0)
-Much lower jump height
-No restoration of second jump (new as of 3.0)

It's the worst ledge recovery option by far. For Ganon, it's a free fair/uair at least. If you master the timing, you could probably aerial side b, or waveland and be able to do tons of other moves.

I've had quite a few forced tether jumps happen as Samus and there is just a huge window of time where I couldn't do anything. I think it's a terrific nerf for tether recoveries.

Bazkip · Feb 27, 2014

Spralwers said:
You edge hog so that when the character pulls up with their tether, they're forced to jump, which I think the PM devs call the forced tether jump. As soon as they do that jump, the easiest thing you could do is ledge hop uair, but I think fair works too.

The forced tether jump is like the jump recovery, except:
-No invincibility frames
-No IASA frames (new as of 3.0)
-Much lower jump height
-No restoration of second jump (new as of 3.0)

It's the worst ledge recovery option by far. For Ganon, it's a free fair/uair at least. If you master the timing, you could probably aerial side b, or waveland and be able to do tons of other moves.

I've had quite a few forced tether jumps happen as Samus and there is just a huge window of time where I couldn't do anything. I think it's a terrific nerf for tether recoveries.

Cool, I've heard mention of this but never found any solid info on it. Thanks.

Spralwers · Feb 27, 2014

We're having a local PM tournament tonight. We had one last week (managed to get 4th of 30 mainly using Ganon! I also used Roy a little) but tonight there's gonna be much more fierce competition (including KDJ) I'll do my best to get vids of my Ganon up. I'll probably do some MMs with him and get those recorded.

Spralwers · Mar 5, 2014

Here's footage of me fighting KDJ's Zelda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSSJcqK4fOE&index=12&list=PLAIIMiVssmgrK1O95hH9v52oCk9bHM74M

I'll have to test this, but there were a lot of times when Zelda went for Din's fire at mid range. Like just a little bit farther than the range of my Ftilt. I feel like wizard's foot would actually work here, especially if I did it as soon as Zelda started her side B.

CORY · Mar 6, 2014

so, from the first round, i want to say use utilt less out of aerial slam jam, but you might just be trying to condition for something. i like how you're using the autocancel on nair to safely get rid of din's, but maybe press towards zelda more as you go? you did get him with jab a few times, so you made him have to respect that option, at least : D

second round, he didn't even let you get slam jams, really : / i still stand by not using the utilt followup unless it's a solid kill chance or a good read, though (all personal bias, here, though). he mostly just figured out your game and walled you the entire time, you were out played, unfortunately. you did stop trying to get rid of din's with aerials, though. were you worried about him hitting you out of your attack/the endlag?

and i like your conjecture for wiz kick into zelda trying to din's. do you know if a din's will make the wiz kick clank? or is wiz kick strong-er enough to go through? if it can clank, it's a little risky, but a really good option as a read. if not, it becomes much safer, since he can't release din's immediately in front of him to make a wall.

Spralwers · Mar 6, 2014

Yeah I have a really bad habit of going straight for utilt out of side B. Bad habit from playing people that are bad about teching haha. I'm getting much better about it though.

I got really scared of those fairs, so second game I tried staying grounded a lot more. I don't actually know how the priority battle between wiz kick and din's fire works, but I'll get to find out today. I mean if wiz foot clashes with Samus's fully charged shot, it should be able to plow right through.

CORY · Mar 6, 2014

well, you get weird interactions. like, i'll sometimes clank mario's fireballs. other times, i'll just plow right through. i'm pretty sure it all comes down to damage staling, but it's funky ;x

Bazkip · Mar 6, 2014

Wiz Kick will go through Din's fire
Though stale kick probably won't

CORY said:
well, you get weird interactions. like, i'll sometimes clank mario's fireballs. other times, i'll just plow right through. i'm pretty sure it all comes down to damage staling, but it's funky ;x

A non-stale fireball will clank

Yanoss1313 · Mar 6, 2014

Bazkip said:
Wiz Kick will go through Din's fire
Though stale kick probably won't

A non-stale fireball will clank

I'd never even considered move stale-ing (iunno) would factor into priority calculations. Good to know now though =D

teluoborg · Mar 7, 2014

Priority is only calculated via 2 factors :
1-is the move transcendant or not (think Falco's laser)
2-the percentage the move does.

Since Ganon does have any transcendant move it's all about % difference. IDK about pm, but in brawl youneedeneeded to deal 9 more % than your opponent's move to beat it, else it would clash. If wiz kick is fresh it does 17% right ? So you need a projectile that deals 9+% to clash with it. If wiz kick is stale and only deals 13% anything that deals 5% or more will cancel it.

So yeah refresh your moves.

Yanoss1313 · Mar 8, 2014

teluoborg said:
Priority is only calculated via 2 factors :
1-is the move transcendant or not (think Falco's laser)
2-the percentage the move does.

Since Ganon does have any transcendant move it's all about % difference. IDK about pm, but in brawl youneedeneeded to deal 9 more % than your opponent's move to beat it, else it would clash. If wiz kick is fresh it does 17% right ? So you need a projectile that deals 9+% to clash with it. If wiz kick is stale and only deals 13% anything that deals 5% or more will cancel it.

So yeah refresh your moves.

I read on another thread that it's 8% in pm, but i'm not sure where it was, or who said it, lol.

Bazkip · Mar 9, 2014

Literally sex

Yanoss1313 · Mar 9, 2014

Bazkip said:
Literally sex

i approve of this message =D

Spralwers · Mar 10, 2014

Oh man. The lack of ****s given by those Ganons is amazing

CORY · Mar 10, 2014

the slam jams were amazing. i'm inspired to learn recover reads all themore now, just so i can pull that **** off : D

FlashingFire · Mar 10, 2014

Spralwers said:
Oh man. The lack of ****s given by those Ganons is amazing

It's actually just one guy, but yeah, that was really fun to watch.

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