Smash Wii U Gaming Monitor vs. HDTV

[ProphetEyes]

So I recently discovered all HDTVs have a phenomenon known as "display lag". Even the Wii U's gamepad exhibits 33ms of display lag which equals to 2 frames. After running a few tests I've found that my budget Sony 1080p 60hz shows even more lag than that. About 4 frames. So now I'm realizing my TV is about 6 frames behind my inputs. I've never noticed this before. But ever since the other day when I was looking up something about my TV that was completely unrelated, I stumbled upon this. Now I think I do notice it, or maybe it's all in my head. But my question is do I need to invest in a lagless monitor such as the EVO monitor or something with equal display lag (09ms or less than one frame) or does it not really matter?

My gf and I have gamed fast paced games on this TV for 8 months (but Smash for only about 6 weeks) and have never noticed it before and still aren't sure if we do. Is this important? How many of you play with a specialized monitor? Is it only for competitive players or should every gamer make this investment?

 

[Skjoett]

If you can't feel/see a difference yourself I wouldn't change your setup!

 

[ProphetEyes]

Can a mod please move this to the Competitive section

 

[Spirst]

Can a mod please move this to the Competitive section

Actually, this is more suited to the Wii U General Discussion subforum than the Competitive one. The latter is for just that: competitive discussion. I do see how this has some competitive application, but it's ultimately best here given that it's not specifically about actual competitive play.

 

[ProphetEyes]

alright thanks!

I'm mainly interested in what competitive players have to say about though rather than general casual players

 

[BtheDestroyer]

Like @ Skjoett said, if you don't notice it, it's not a problem. Unless of course you're inviting M2K over for some matches in which case "If you're not frame perfect 100% of the time you must SD"

 

[Deleted member]

If you are playing competitive at all, I recommend getting at least the cheapest lowest input lag monitor you can get because input lag on HDTVs severely holds you and other people back. If you aren't playing competitive, then stick with the HDTV.

By the way, even for non competitive gaming it does in fact get in the way. If you are trying to beat like Donkey Kong Country on VC (not counting Game Pad lag), it is very hard to make precise jumps and this applies to nearly all games except like some RPGS, tactics, etc.

Stick with what makes you happy, but I definitely prefer low input lag over screen size any day.

 

[ProphetEyes]

Well, this is becoming an interesting discussion. I'm really OCD when it comes to the things that I love and I feel like having the optimal setup would make me happier, but I also like being able to kick back on the couch and have a 48" screen. I would like to get into the competitive scene but this is my first fighting game since SFII on SNES, and that was like 18 years ago. Now I'm almost 31 and feel like I may be too old to gain competitive Smash skills, but still would like to try. I've played competitively in the racing genre but this is a totally different beast. So if I am going to try to play competitively I should try to get the monitor? Is it going to make a difference in my game, or is it going to be something that I don't really notice until I play in a tournament with a lagless monitor?

And isn't it critical to be frame perfect?

 

[Deleted member]

Well, this is becoming an interesting discussion. I'm really OCD when it comes to the things that I love and I feel like having the optimal setup would make me happier, but I also like being able to kick back on the couch and have a 48" screen. I would like to get into the competitive scene but this is my first fighting game since SFII on SNES, and that was like 18 years ago. Now I'm almost 31 and feel like I may be too old to gain competitive Smash skills, but still would like to try. I've played competitively in the racing genre but this is a totally different beast. So if I am going to try to play competitively I should try to get the monitor? Is it going to make a difference in my game, or is it going to be something that I don't really notice until I play in a tournament with a lagless monitor?

To be competitive at Smash 4 you are going to need it so you have correct timing down. Input lag or Display lag is honestly like this:

Imagine running with light shoes and after that, imagine running with shoes that are 10 pounds on each foot. Imagine throwing a normal punch, then imagine throwing a punch with a boxing glove that weighs 10 pounds.

It honestly holds you back because there is something there hindering your movement. If it took you 5 seconds to run a certain area of space, it would take longer to get across that space with the slowness of the weights and that is why it is needed for competitive play to have as low input lag as possible so everyone can play without "shackles" and to the best of their abilities.

As for being "too old", the only thing holding anyone back from being great is a lack of passion. If you have passion, you'll become great regardless of age.

 

[ProphetEyes]

To be competitive at Smash 4 you are going to need it so you have correct timing down. Input lag or Display lag is honestly like this:

Imagine running with light shoes and after that, imagine running with shoes that are 10 pounds on each foot. Imagine throwing a normal punch, then imagine throwing a punch with a boxing glove that weighs 10 pounds.

It honestly holds you back because there is something there hindering your movement. If it took you 5 seconds to run a certain area of space, it would take longer to get across that space with the slowness of the weights and that is why it is needed for competitive play to have as low input lag as possible so everyone can play without "shackles" and to the best of their abilities.

As for being "too old", the only thing holding anyone back from being great is a lack of passion. If you have passion, you'll become great regardless of age.

Lol. Well, that's good to know! So now my question is this... since "it is needed for competitive play so everyone can play without shackles..." Does that mean it only makes a difference in a competitive environment or does it make a difference in my living room as well? For example, does it hold me back at home or only when playing a lagless setup because my inputs would be at slightly different timings?

 

[Deleted member]

Lol. Well, that's good to know! So now my question is this... since "it is needed for competitive play so everyone can play without shackles..." Does that mean it only makes a difference in a competitive environment or does it make a difference in my living room as well? For example, does it hold me back at home or only when playing a lagless setup because my inputs would be at slightly different timings?

It matters technically always. Even doing some simple combos from my testing (like very basic stuff) when I've played on bigger TVs the past few weeks, then went back to my monitor it felt like after I went back to it I played soooo much better. Being able to move smoothly in the air and react, even against CPUs it is a huge difference. I definitely recommend getting something with low input lag. You can even get 27 inch monitors if you want more size.

 

[ProphetEyes]

okay, looks like the EVO monitor or something with less than 16ms display lag will be my next major purchase. And when it's time to upgrade TV's I'll make sure to find the lowest display lag I can afford. According to the displaylag.com database the best HDTVs offer 17ms display lag vs the monitors 09ms. This is just about double. Considering that 17ms is only 1 frame, would such a difference be noticeable to anyone besides M2K? lol

 

[Deleted member]

okay, looks like the EVO monitor or something with less than 16ms display lag will be my next major purchase. And when it's time to upgrade TV's I'll make sure to find the lowest display lag I can afford. According to the displaylag.com database the best HDTVs offer 17ms display lag vs the monitors 09ms. This is just about double. Considering that 17ms is only 1 frame, would such a difference be noticeable to anyone besides M2K? lol

You'll be fine with that TV, just keep in mind that number is most likely for "Game Mode" so be sure to play that TV in "Game Mode" or you might not get that low of lag.

 

[Newt Floss]

You can't improve on the Wii U GamePad's display lag and it would be silly to even try. But if you're obsessive about the lag you can always hook it up to a CRT with old Wii A/V cables.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Check for specific displays here:
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

If you're buying a monitor, get anything 10ms or lower. It's virtually indistinguishable from a CRT.

If you're getting a TV, get one with 20ms or lower. It's harder to find HDTVs that rate as well as monitors for input lag, but several of Sony's recent models are competitive on that front.

I bought a lag tester myself and have tested it on all 3 of my current displays:

CRT lag:

Monitor lag:

HDTV lag:

You can't improve on the Wii U GamePad's display lag and it would be silly to even try. But if you're obsessive about the lag you can always hook it up to a CRT with old Wii A/V cables.

The Gamepad isn't that great.

 

[ProphetEyes]

You can't improve on the Wii U GamePad's display lag and it would be silly to even try. But if you're obsessive about the lag you can always hook it up to a CRT with old Wii A/V cables.

I am fully aware of this.

@ S Sixfortyfive You have a sick HDTV man! 16ms of display lag is as good as it gets, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit jealous... But I digress, would you recommend getting a lag tester? I am kind of curious at what my TV tests at. It's not in the displaylag data-base. The closest one to it has 43ms of display lag and I find that number to be completely unacceptable. I know that come Black Friday I will be getting a better HDTV for gaming, but I may end up getting a monitor or trying to find an old CRT before that

 

[Sixfortyfive]

But I digress, would you recommend getting a lag tester?

Not unless you need absolute peace of mind. They're not cheap (over $100).

I have one for two reasons. (1) An extra $100 was justifiable if I was going to be dropping close to $2000 on a new, as-of-yet untested TV at the time anyway. (2) I usually have a lot of video equipment in tow whenever I'm running a stream at a fighting game event, and sometimes there's that one player who starts whining and spreading false rumors about how my equipment lags, so it's good to have something on hand that can shut an idiot like that up.

 

[Deleted member]

You can't improve on the Wii U GamePad's display lag and it would be silly to even try. But if you're obsessive about the lag you can always hook it up to a CRT with old Wii A/V cables.

The actual display is pretty good, but you have to keep in mind you are also streaming content to the Game Pad which causes it's own lag ontop of usual display lag.

 

[Grizzmeister]

I use 'Game Mode" on my Sharp Aquos LCD which makes input lag imperceptible.

 

[Mwauthzyx]

I use Game Mode on my Samsung Smart HDTV and it sort of helps. I'd rather have a CRT.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

A gaming monitor is great, but I personally never had any problem with my Samsung TV.

 

[ProphetEyes]

I use game mode on my Sony, and I don't notice any lag, or perhaps I've just gotten used to it, but we've beaten DKC Trop Freeze on it and New Mario Wii U. But just because you don't really notice something doesn't mean it isn't there, and it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. It seems like it's laggier than the gamepad when I ran a couple tests on it, but I don't notice it.

Craigslist here has multiple free CRTs but I enjoy the game in the resolution it was made it be played with.

 

[Newt Floss]

The Gamepad isn't that great.

I didn't say it was great or perfect. It's just silly to try to do better. I like that link though.

 

[A17]

I'm at the brink of getting a small gaming monitor for myself. I didn't realize for years my HDTV had lag on it until I played on a lagless monitor. This was of course way before Smash 4 came out. What has bugged me about this is that in addition to network latency, I had to put up with input lag as well. It's extremely frustrating when you know you reacted appropriately in time but still get hit anyway.

While I'm nowhere at the level of a tournament player, little things like this make it difficult for me to enjoy a timing-strict game.