Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[A2ZOMG]

IIRC, don't you have invul frames while glide tossing?

Moving on, okay, Olimar is actually very easy once you figure out his range. I'd say 8/2 in G&W's favor. You will likely get owned if you are very new to this matchup, and more so if you are playing with Wifi lag, but trust me, it gets soooooo much better once you get past the learning curve.

D-tilt or N-air away Pikmin until Olimar wants to grab you. Punish whiffed grabs, his shield, or D-smashes with B-airs or N-airs (if you N-air, remember that you can autocancel it and immediately pull out a D-air before you land) Get him in the air, juggle him if you can, and try to get him to hit your shield with an aerial, then grab him. If he's at like 80%, D-throw and D-smash him and he'll die if he can't tech. If he DI's Up, then get ready to F-air him. If he didn't DI up, then just hog the ledge (you will take damage from his Up-B, but it won't kill you).

Or you can techchase U-smash him and he'll die because he's so lightweight. =D

On the other hand, don't get grabbed at 120% if he has saved his U-throw, because that kills. Also your D-air >>> Olimar's U-smash.

 

[cutter]

Invincibility when glide tossing? I never knew that if that were the case.

Anyway, I play against a very good Olimar player regularly. He was kicking my *** a ton until I started to learn his patterns with using Olimar. Now I beat him pretty consistently.

To get around my Dtilt, he would jump up and toss the pikmin over me. That's OK though; you can just use the Dtilt's IASA frames to quickly Nair any pikimin that might latch onto you.

Learn the distance where Olimar can grab you. Each color pikmin will go a different length for their grab range. If you get a purple or blue pikmin to grab you at ~120%, you're done. This is especially important for me because my opponent abuses Olimar's grab range so much.

Don't approach Olimar from a 45-degree angle. His Up B will always attack from 45 degrees out and has HUGE range.

Abuse Dair in this match. Olimar has very little answer against it, and obviously his Usmash is beaten by it. He will always get caught in Dthrow + Dsmash as well even if he buffers a roll.

When edgeguarding, I like using Fair and Up B to push him as far away from the ledge as possible. His Up B will stagespike you, so don't squander your invincibility frames when you grab the edge.

I find Dsmash to be my kill move of choice vs. Olimar. Sweetspoted Dsmash kills Olimar at ~80% with extreme ease, and a sourspotted Dsmash will also send him to his grave.

With two competent players, I think this matchup is 6/4 in favor of G&W. No way is this match an 8/2 blowout.

 

[Neb]

6/4 sounds right.

Some things to keep note of.
Despite bair being effective in this match-up, Oli's amazing grab-range can ignore the disjointed hitboxes and pull you in for some punishment, so it'd be smart to DI all your Turtle approaches, maybe full hop for better retreat.

And similar to G&W's grab-game, he also has a pretty solid throw performance. Common chains at low-to-mid percentages out of dthrow are- a short hopped fair, uair, up-b, usmash, fsmash and re-grab. So you'll need good DI, a quick getaway with upb, or crush them with a second jump dair. One way you know your up against a smart Olimar, is if they approach with a grab. He's really going to try to set-up openings, while also keeping a distance in order to sneak in when there's a door.

We already know pikmin in general, aren't much of a problem, they're plenty of options to avoid needless damage. Jab, dtilt, nair, bair, uair...actually, I'm pretty sure G&W's entire arsenal has some quality to destroy Olimar's soldiers.

So what exactly are the problems in this match-up?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I'd still like to know what frame G&W's Dtilt comes out.

Dtilt: Startup time is 5 Frames, hits on Frame 6, the hitbox stays out for 20 frames, and it has 0 frames of cool down.

Altogether, the attack is 25 frames long.

:D

also, though slightly less interesting as the amazing Dtilt...

<HotGarbage> oh yeah, and I got info on his dreaded bair for kicks
<HotGarbage> warmup: 9 (hitbox comes out on frame 10)
<HotGarbage> landing lag: 12
<HotGarbage> duration: 39
<HotGarbage> could be wrong on the landing lag though, I based that off the animaition, the hitbox could still be out

Is there anything else you might need in terms of Frame Data?
(Don't be greedy, but if you suspect something like super armor in an attack thats 'k)

 

[Neb]

No cool down, sheesh!

Someone wanted to know if Glide Toss had invincible frames, also, what about Oil Panic, anything special (Frame Related) with that technique?
>>, who thinks Esc should go bonkers and set-up a thread of G&W's frame data, ? ...Besides me.

 

[cutter]

That's because Dtilt has IASA frames

Esc, if you could make a frame data chart that would be just amazing. Personally, I'd like frame data on:
- Jab
- Nair
- Judgment
- Oil Panic

Problematic things in G&W vs. Olimar:
- Olimar's grabbing game (especially since his throws kill)
- His attacks are quite powerful (his Usmash can kill at like 85%)

Are the two biggest things that give G&W problems in my experience

 

[Neb]

Jab's frames will probably be even crazier than dtilts.

What you said are really the only debatable issues in this match-up, Olimar's strengths are pretty much put to shame against G&W. ...Might be a bit early to say, but...are we done with this match-up already?

 

[cutter]

I think OBM will be back either today, tomorrow, or the day after that. I'd like see his insight on Diddy vs G&W and Olimar vs. G&W.

You just need experience to beat Olimar. You'll get wrecked by him if you're not ready to play against him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So what exactly are the problems in this match-up?

This matchup is just very very annoying in that it only can be played very conservatively. It's just that if you play conservatively, Olimar really can't do much to you, and eventually you will be able to get a grab on him and **** him.

Now if you badly space a B-air and he grabs you, remember he can U-throw kill you at like I dunno 120%. His U-smash and D-smash are pretty dangerous. Now you can get around his grab by camping him, and waiting for him to attempt to grab you. Now if you have been wisely using D-tilts, you will likely have enough time to punish him with a B-air. His D-smash is also fairly easily punished, and his U-smash is easy to outprioritize with D-airs.

Also, beware that he can shieldgrab your D-air. My favorite way to catch Olimar off guard with it though is to first nick his shield with an N-air, and then D-air him. FROM A SHORT HOP. That's two aerials in one short hop baby. Chances are he will have been holding his shield long enough by then for you to hit him with the D-air.

While Olimar can be annoying with platforms, they help you juggle him, and remember that if he uses an aerial on your shield, you get to grab him and D-smash him.

All in all, I think the reason why this matchup is initially hard is that it requires G&W to abandon his typical aggressive playstyle, since in this matchup, it gets him punished. However, G&W is able to force Olimar out of his typical campy style, and this hurts Olimar a lot more since G&W is very good at capitalizing on his abysmal recovery or in fewer cases his light weight (Yeah, G&W does get killed at low percents by Olimar too, but Olimar has some more trouble grab comboing G&W on the other hand).

If Olimar can tech the D-smash, at least you can regrab him, or go back to camping him. If you go back to camping him, eventually you should be able to rack up enough damage for you B-air to get him off the stage, and then for your F-air to kill him.

 

[Ruuku]

Make good use of Dtilt against Olimar's side B.

 

[Lotsa_Spaghetti]

Like, half of the kills i get on Olimars all i do is Down Throw>Down Smash>Gimp his recovery. Rinse and Repeat.

 

[cutter]

Dsmash is your primary kill move against Olimar period. Make sure it's fresh if you want to kill him very early.

No sign of OBM yet...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I haven't tested this at all, but I heard there was a way to instantly break out of Olimar's grab when it connects. Probably by mashing the A button.

Mastering this could probably make the matchup even more lopsided.

 

[Voxx]

Thanks, i gto wrecked the first time i played Oli....

we played on his turf, luigis mansion..... i got 3 stocked there..

 

[Neb]

Olimar forums thinks this match-up is neutral.
But think Yoshi is a disadvantage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, some logic.

I don't doubt Yoshi has advantage on Olimar though (I think he outprioritizes Olimar and his awesome DI can be hard to deal with), but I honestly think G&W does sooooo much better as long as the G&W knows what he's doing. Because G&W is waaaaay better at gimping Olimar than Yoshi is. Like seriously, I haven't lost to a single Olimar yet ever since I figured out how the matchup works (except when my lag got really bad lol).

Oh, and don't overlook this. You can D-throw -> F-smash most lightweights much the same way you can D-smash them (at least I think you would be able to since it's only a 2 frame longer startup than the D-smash, and I've COMBOED Marth this way on training mode). Do that if you think he'll DI up and your D-smash is stale. You especially might want to consider that near the ledge since he's almost certainly going to want to DI towards the stage yeah and this might reduce the effectiveness of the D-smash gimp.

 

[Hylian]

Throwing my opinion in:

Diddy vs G&W: 60-40 in Diddys favor.

Olimar vs G&W: 35 - 65 in G&W's Favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why in Diddy's favor btw?

If G&W gets control of a Banana, he can glide toss -> F-smash. =/

The only real thing against him is just that he kinda sucks at avoiding Banana combos once hit yeah. I should know this one, Teh_spammerer kicked my ***. =(

Then the rest of the matchup is G&W being a technically superior character really.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

One problem is how awful G&W is at actually getting a banana. His Dash Attack is just really bad at picking stand alone Nanerz, and standing in place, G&W just doesn't have the reach for it.

Though, it's pretty good when you do get one.
Pressure so he doesn't get one.

I'm curious what's the fuss with the Diddy matchup :<

 

[Hylian]

You have to get close to diddy to hit him. Diddy can glidetoss backwards and throw forward and it counters almost everything G&W can do. Diddy almost always has stage control and he builds up damage faster then almost any other character. Since G&W is so light, diddy can actually kill him. Being able to pick up banannas isn't going to help you much...

 

[Ruuku]

You have to get close to diddy to hit him. Diddy can glidetoss backwards and throw forward and it counters almost everything G&W can do. Diddy almost always has stage control and he builds up damage faster then almost any other character. Since G&W is so light, diddy can actually kill him. Being able to pick up banannas isn't going to help you much...

What I dislike is when Diddy players do dash attack->reverse glide toss->dash attack->reverse glide toss->etc... In this match, I find it pretty important to choose a stage with platforms. And if Rainbow Cruise is legal, then go for it. RC is so awesome.

 

[omegablackmage]

HAH, someone else agrees that its tough for gw players... (diddy i mean)

sorry about the excessive delay guys, i'll update this a bunch tommorow night. I was on vaca as you know and two tournaments this weekend have kept me pretty busy.

 

[Patsie]

I'll try writing up some stuff about this tomorrow, but really good Diddy's crush me. They're so annoying to fight, good thing you can choose a good amount of counterpicks that will probably make him switch character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So after you update OBM, will we further discuss Olimar?

Honestly, I want to discuss G&W dittos.

 

[cutter]

What I dislike is when Diddy players do dash attack->reverse glide toss->dash attack->reverse glide toss->etc... In this match, I find it pretty important to choose a stage with platforms. And if Rainbow Cruise is legal, then go for it. RC is so awesome.

lol RC is G&W's domain.

 

[Hylian]

In florida at FAST1, they renamed RC to Hylian Cruise...because I destroyed everyone I played on it XD. My teammate and I 5 stocked NoJ and PB&J on RC in teams XD.

 

[Patsie]

Nevermind, I honestly can't write anything too helpful on this matchup, Olimar and Diddy are two characters who I haven't figured out how to handle yet. Nannerz = death for me.

 

[Voxx]

Yoshi caught me off gaurd, man he was so fun to fight but tough none the less. Olli gets easier everytime you face him, dont play his games and lure him in with one bacon chef xP

 

[omegablackmage]

so im pretty inclined to think that diddy is at least a neutral matchup. bananas outprioritize everything, which has already been mentioned, but that fact alone would make it a tougher match for gw than he's used to. given his insane ground speed (dash attack, tilts, glide tossing etc) coupled with the high priority of the bananas, diddy won't have too much trouble racking up a lot of damage on gw.

every other aspect of the matchup seems to swing in gw's favor however. power, priority, recovery, edge game, etc all are clearly in favor of gw, which leads me to think this is pretty close to neutral. I'll have to play more experienced diddy's and see if my opinion gets swayed.

Thanks to cutter for the write up, i'll edit that into the first post.

Now, on to olimar.

olimar has some major problems vs gw, and some major strengths at the same time. His faults are of course that you can cancel the larger part of his pressure game with neutral airs and dtilts quite easily, making it harder for him to rack up damage. He also falls quite easily to the dtilt off the stage, which can very easily gimp his recovery.

for his strengths though, he definitely has some power to that up smash, which should be killing game and watch just over 100. its very quick and isn't too hard to set up, so olimar doesn't have too much trouble landing kills on gw. Also, his excessively long grab range and forward smash range make things tricky for gw. dash away pivoted grabs essentially nullify the turtle approach if played correctly and force you to approach in awkward ways.

overall though, w/o a serious pressure game, olimar can have a tough time approaching gw. if you stay on the defensive its nearly impossible for him to make any progress in the match.

6/4 imo

 

[cutter]

Olimar is a very reactive character period. He has no approaches that pressure G&W, and the pikmin tossing is easily nullified. Basically, Olimar lives off punishing with his grab range and smashes, which are perfect for doing so. We can all agree that playing a berserker-style approaching game as G&W doesn't really work against Olimar.

Getting Olimar in the air is essential in the matchup. He can't do his best attacks (smashes and grabs) in the air and G&W wrecks Olimar with his aerials. He will always be caught in the Dthrow/Dsmash combo if he doesn't tech the throw. Personally, Dsmash is my primary kill move against Olimar; either to kill him with a tipper hit at ~85% or to gimp him with the sourspot hit.

 

[omegablackmage]

Olimar: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Olimar's claim to fame is his ability to force his opponent to approach him by throwing the pikmin onto his opponent. This can quickly rack up a lot of damage if the pikmin go uncontested and can easily assist olimar into landing very early kills.
• Olimar's most frequent kill move is the upsmash. Its his fastest smash as far as i know, is the strongest, and is the easiest to setup. It has a decent sized hitbox in front of him allowing for it to be used almost like a second forward smash. When at higher percents, purple pikmin can really hurt in the form of fairs/bairs and fsmashes. Also watch out for his back/up grab kills which, especially if blue pikmin are used, can hurt pretty early on.
• Olimar's recovery is potentially one of the worst in the game, which isn't news to most people. GW's ability to gimp this recovery is readily available through the use of his quick disjointed tilts and aerials.
• Because olimar is so bad off of the stage, you won't find olimars edgeguarding you too often. If they do try, go very low and you shouldn't have much trouble avoiding them.
• Olimar's combo game mostly revolves around him landing grabs. A down throw can very easily set up to a dashing up smash (and then up airs and even an up b maybe) or another dash grab. Although mostly overlooked, falling nairs to uptilts and then up airs can also rack up a lot of damage too.
• GW's combos on olimar don't look too different compared to most other characters. Olimar has super armor frames in the down b whistle attack, which could help him to power through some of your single hitting attacks and then make a quick counterattack. Down throw to dsmash works unless they tech per usual (olimar can't buffer a roll fast enough).

General Strategies:

• The most imporant thing in this match to keep in mind is to always be nullifying his attempts to land sneak damage. If he gets distance, he'll probably start chucking pikmin, which you should always dtilt or nair away.
• Try your best to keep olimar in the air. His best moves are done on the ground, so having him in the air takes away his best attributes. His aerials have low priority/range so you should be mostly uncontested.
• The dtilt will go through all of olimar's approaches except for the grab. Even the fsmash is trounced by the mighty dtilt. Because olimar's aerials have poor range you will find yourself beating him almost all the time (olimar's up air will go through the key about half the time, keep this in mind).
• Olimar players are very used to using the upward priority of their upsmash to ward off opponents approaching from above. The key will always go through the upsmash, and most of the time you can catch the olimar off guard.
• Most of your kills will be landed through tech chases from the dsmash, random smashes you might be able to set up, but mostly through gimps. Learn to take away the olimar's double jump whenever they use it thought up b's/fairs/bairs/keys/dtilts. Once their jump is gone just hog the edge and get ready to tech/roll to the stage. Never go back onto the stage until you are absolutely sure he is dead, the up b reaches farther than you think.
• If spaced correctly, the turtle can outreach the standing grab from olimar, however if they dash away and then back he will likely grab you. Try to avoid using fairs on their shield as the grab will usually punish you. Make good use of nairs and dodge to grabs from the air to approach. Any grab landed will likely end in a smash, and the nair will probably catch them and pop them up for further combo'ing.
• I've heard rumors that the standing grab will reach below the stage, and has the potential to grab you out of your up b. If this does happen, then you will lose your stock as you are unable to up b after someone grabs you out of it. If this is true, the timing would be quite difficult I imagine, so just keep in mind although i don't think you will see it very often.

Stages:

• Any stage with reduced amounts of ledges, or moving stages really hurt olimar a lot. Stages like rainbow cruise and frigate orpheon come to mind.
• Avoid stages with excessive amounts of ledges, like norfair. This makes it almost impossible for you to edgehog them on a stage like this makes the battle quite a bit harder.

 

[Voxx]

OBM, also add to highly avoid luigis mansion. Pik's go through the walls and oli can mash you up in that box'd in stage
I highly recomend you destroy one side or play on the roof.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ZSS huh.

Okay, I think this might be 5/5 even, but I haven't played this matchup too much.

ZSS's advantages:
*Outranges you with several important attacks. Her U-smash and Forward-B are particularly dangerous.
*You are lightweight, so while she has trouble scoring KOs, this can be less of an issue for her. Watch out for her U-air in particular, which is deadly.

ZSS Disadvantages:
*Bad at approaching
*You can counter her D-smash with the Bucket, and you can Bucket and I think duck under Paralyzer shots. I want to know what else you can duck under. I hear Kirby can be very difficult for ZSS because he's able to duck under something crazy like all but three of her attacks.
*One-tracked recovery. Make sure to hit her third jump away with an Up-B, otherwise beware the meteor smash on it.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

6:4 in favor of G&W, I feel.

ZSS is great with racking up damage with her projectile armor pieces in the very beginning, and her Dsmash chain. Luckily thats bucketable, and the pieces can be used by yourself with you're good glide toss. Not the greatest at killing, so G&W should be killing earlier, usually.

I havent faced many, and the ones I have were victims to G&W's might. Iunno, this matchup seems rather easy.

 

[cutter]

So my friend and I screwed around with the G&W-Zamus matchup for around an hour or so. Here are my insights and intuition:

Zamus has only two (but they're decent) kill moves: Side B and Uair. The Side B always seems to sweetspot me even when I'm not remotely close to the sweetspot. It seems like her Side B will automatically drag you into it

Uair comes out very fast, which can be a bit of a problem since our Dair has a tad bit of startup time before it executes. A fresh Uair can kill G&W over the top at pretty low percentages (assuming G&W is in the air to begin with of course).

Zamus has a very good glide toss, and she'll abuse it to start the match. Be extra cautious when the match starts. Treat her armor parts like Diddy's bananas, except they're much more powerful and won't trip you.

Zamus has a good amount of attacks that outrange G&W: Fsmash, Side B, and grab horizontally, and Up B and Usmash vertically. Her big weak points though are on diagonals (no good moves that reach diagonals unlike her other sick-ranged attacks) and below her (G&W's Uair > her Dair).

The best way to beat ZSS IMO is to approach her diagonally instead of horizontally or from above. Lots of turtle dancing diagonally and Nairs through platforms REALLY help G&W.

As long as Zamus keeps her kill moves fresh, she can kill you somewhat quickly. However she is VERY lightweight and dies insanely early from G&W's imba smashes. Her recovery is also bad; if you knock her off with a sourspot Dsmash and do some edgeguarding, you can get a very easy gimp on her.

Dsmash seems like G&W's primary kill move of choice here; just like against Olimar for the double duty of insanely low ceiling kills or gimping the tether recovery.

I would agree with a 6:4 advantage to G&W.

 

[cutter]

So guess no one really plays against ZSS either?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Pretty much

 

[omegablackmage]

yeah unfortunately im not going to update w/ only 2 people posting relevant information, sorry guys.

 

[cutter]

Meh that's fine. Let's just move on to someone else.

 

[Ruuku]

I do have a good amount of experience against ZSS. I've been quite busy lately but I'll try to post somthing tomorrow.