Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Mercify]

I wouldn't recommend having more than 3 mains (counting Marth/Lucina as one), but if you want to then go ahead and challenge yourself! The main reason is that you won't grow as quick and will likely reach a skill cap quicker because you're juggling between the same playstyles and combos.
Link + Lucina is a nice standard combo, you pretty much cover everything with just that. Rosalina would be the only thing that comes to mind that could give you trouble, and if that's the case, then pick up Fox.
You select your own mains, but try to base it off who you have fun with and get good results with, ya know? Or who you are determined to get better with so you CAN get good results.

Thanks, I think I'll go with Link and Fox as side mains then.

 

[ATH_]

Thanks, I think I'll go with Link and Fox as side mains then.

Alright, good luck Mystogan :3

 

[Mercify]

Alright, good luck Mystogan :3

Thanks XD, I'll be practicing none stop because I have my first tournament this friday! And my profile pic would be of sea grain, like my name but I liked this one more, plus they practically are the same person

 

[Keyo~Zakuya]

I have a problem that I hope someone can help clarify for me. It's hard to fully explain it because my problem usually only occurs in the middle of a match (either on or offline), but basically there are times when I want to punish my opponent's laggy move with a quick smash (c stick on smash attack) yet I get a jab instead. This tends to only happen in the heat of battle (or when I need a smash attack to come out more than anything in the world). and I noticed it mostly happens with I try to quick smash after dropping my shield. I've tried replicating this in training mode but I just get dodges out of shield instead. I theorize that it has to do with how shield stun works, but I'm no wiz when it comes to game mechanics. I'd like to figure out why it's happening so I don't lose any more matches because I missed a golden opportunity for a punish>

 

[Earthboundy]

Hi, I've been playing competitive Wii U smash since it came out but I have been having trouble finding a good way to train. I currently use for glory, but it can lag and only allows FD. How should I train. I do go to tournaments as often as I can but I am too young to drive and have to rely on my mom who isn't usually up to taking me to tournaments.

 

[Jebus244]

Imo, FG will only get you so far. With input lag, and general lag, it's difficult to play the way you would in a tournament for both players. That said, it can still help.

Just to train though, I think training mode is great, especially for getting down timing by lowering the speed. You need to use it to get control of your character. Don't just focus on combos, focus on sweet spotting, movement techs, practice FF aerials, memorize distance for dash/shield cancel/pivot grabs. Work on wall jumps, making aggressive recoveries from the ledge, test how far out you can go to punish/gimp. Practice turn around jabs, tilts, and instant SH aerials. Go through your character's moveset and get as much mileage out of every move that you can.

Other than training mode, play low level computers to work on precision in your attacks, and play high level computers to work on evading attacks. FG will help with reads. When athletes practice they don't just play a game, they work on fundamentals until they are reactionary/muscle memory/instinct. That's how you should train.

 

[Raijinken]

Training Mode can help test certain followups, level 8 CPUs work decently as a measure of human reaction, but playing against humans of decent skill is ideal. If you've got friends who just play regularly and can get them to start practicing and improving, then not only can you teach them, but you may stumble into something you'd not known before (especially if they pick different mains, you can get a lot of matchup knowledge).

 

[Metalex]

If you have For Glory mode as your main form of practice you should always try to switch opponents until you meet someone who is at the same level or above your level who beats you most of the time, and then save replays of the matches you think were the hardest and watch them later to notice flaws in your gameplay figuring out why you lost.

It's also a good idea to watch matches of the very best players with your character and try to predict what options he/she will use when playing and learn from that.

Going to tournaments and facing off real players and doing friendly battles will always be the best form of practice of couse.

 

[pershona]

Practice movement in training, learn your moves carefully, watch competitive matches to see how you should play a matchup, think how certain stages affect your characters and matchups, and for actually playing matches i recommend Smashladder.

 

[wingedarcher7]

There's a list of different things you can do. Practice mode is good to get the hand of certain movements since you don't have to worry about anything, but then you're going to watch to go against a level 8 CPU to put those movements into an actual match and see how they fair up. Plus, fighting a CPU has no lag and level 8s aren't as annoying as level 9s. After that, if you want, you could take the battle online to For Glory. It's a good way of seeing how people actually play, but the lag and the input delays could bother you. Smash Ladder is excellent for online as well and better than FG, in my opinion.

When you think you're ready to give it a shot, go to local tournaments and clubs, find people who play the game! The very best way to practice is to go to these kind of events where you have real people and the least amount of lag possible. Not to mention you get the chance to make some new friends and that's always awesome too.

 

[Terotrous]

As noted, For Glory has some issues. I'd try using the matchmaking threads here or on Smashladder to find people to play. Besides allowing you to find someone who has a decent connection, this will allow you to play on different stages, more like in a real tournament.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Is there a way I can be better at reading DI? Is it something I can improve or does it entirely rely on reactions?

I play Luigi and his Dthrow combos can be heavily varied but sometimes it's DI dependent. My issue is that I always plan for the no-DI followup. So when someone DIs behind me, I whiff my Fair when I could have easily landed a Bair or Uair. I think the true problem I'm having is that I already commit to a move in my head so I attempt it after the Dthrow without concern for DI. Any way to break that?

 

[Mookmook24]

Any experienced players willing to play me? Trying to get better.

 

[Chiroz]

I have a problem that I hope someone can help clarify for me. It's hard to fully explain it because my problem usually only occurs in the middle of a match (either on or offline), but basically there are times when I want to punish my opponent's laggy move with a quick smash (c stick on smash attack) yet I get a jab instead. This tends to only happen in the heat of battle (or when I need a smash attack to come out more than anything in the world). and I noticed it mostly happens with I try to quick smash after dropping my shield. I've tried replicating this in training mode but I just get dodges out of shield instead. I theorize that it has to do with how shield stun works, but I'm no wiz when it comes to game mechanics. I'd like to figure out why it's happening so I don't lose any more matches because I missed a golden opportunity for a punish>

Are you sure this happens offline and with the regular A button (not c-stick)?

This happens to me all the time but only online and only with the C-Stick. I figured it was due to lag and the way the c-stick works. The C-Stick is now a macro for direction + A which means that if you lag in the middle of the c-stick input you will get direction and then A which ends up in neutral air, jab or dash attack instead of smashes.

I've tested this thoroughly and my theories seemed to be correct. It even goes as far as rendering the c-stick completely useless in high-lag matches and me having to switch to the A button. Everytime a match receives a huge lag spike it also rendere the c-stick useless during the lag spike.

I've never had it happen offline though, so my theory might be wrong.

 

[Asdioh]

Imo, FG will only get you so far. With input lag, and general lag, it's difficult to play the way you would in a tournament for both players. That said, it can still help.

Just to train though, I think training mode is great, especially for getting down timing by lowering the speed. You need to use it to get control of your character. Don't just focus on combos, focus on sweet spotting, movement techs, practice FF aerials, memorize distance for dash/shield cancel/pivot grabs. Work on wall jumps, making aggressive recoveries from the ledge, test how far out you can go to punish/gimp. Practice turn around jabs, tilts, and instant SH aerials. Go through your character's moveset and get as much mileage out of every move that you can.

Other than training mode, play low level computers to work on precision in your attacks, and play high level computers to work on evading attacks. FG will help with reads. When athletes practice they don't just play a game, they work on fundamentals until they are reactionary/muscle memory/instinct. That's how you should train.

This guy's got it right. You need to get the fundamentals down before you can work on the other things. I've played all smash games since forever, I've been to a decent number of tournaments, and played gazillions of online matches, but I still go back into training mode often, especially since recent losses made me realize I need to. You need to know your character inside and out. Learn how much damage each move does, whether it has a sweetspot or not, where/when the sweetspots are, learn the startup and ending lag (you can eyeball the lag, and you can also look at some frame data available here and here to help). Learn which aerials have no lag out of a short hop, learn how daring you can be with your offstage play and recovery, learn the simple but most important techniques like runoff instant ledgegrabs, "reverse aerial rush" (what even is this name) backairs, practice how to catch items, practice how to punish out of shield, etc. etc.


Once you have all the knowledge of how to do things down, and you have them in your muscle memory, then you can start watching matches by players of your character, trying to understand what they do and why. Wifi also helps, but you need to be careful of getting in bad habits, as some strategies work well on wifi that will be less effective offline.

 

[Mookmook24]

This guy's got it right. You need to get the fundamentals down before you can work on the other things. I've played all smash games since forever, I've been to a decent number of tournaments, and played gazillions of online matches, but I still go back into training mode often, especially since recent losses made me realize I need to. You need to know your character inside and out. Learn how much damage each move does, whether it has a sweetspot or not, where/when the sweetspots are, learn the startup and ending lag (you can eyeball the lag, and you can also look at some frame data available here and here to help). Learn which aerials have no lag out of a short hop, learn how daring you can be with your offstage play and recovery, learn the simple but most important techniques like runoff instant ledgegrabs, "reverse aerial rush" (what even is this name) backairs, practice how to catch items, practice how to punish out of shield, etc. etc.


Once you have all the knowledge of how to do things down, and you have them in your muscle memory, then you can start watching matches by players of your character, trying to understand what they do and why. Wifi also helps, but you need to be careful of getting in bad habits, as some strategies work well on wifi that will be less effective offline.

I will take this advice. Normally when I want to main a character I just jump right into for glory, only to see failure. So from now on I think I will go to training first and learn the character best I can.

 

[TTYK]

Who should I main besides Greninja? I prefer fast characters.

 

[RoachCake]

Who should I main besides Greninja? I prefer fast characters.

The only person to tell you who you should main should be you.
But some characters I'd recommend that are kinda like Greninja in the area of speed would be Sheik, Yoshi, or C. Falcon.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Is there a way I can be better at reading DI? Is it something I can improve or does it entirely rely on reactions?

I play Luigi and his Dthrow combos can be heavily varied but sometimes it's DI dependent. My issue is that I always plan for the no-DI followup. So when someone DIs behind me, I whiff my Fair when I could have easily landed a Bair or Uair. I think the true problem I'm having is that I already commit to a move in my head so I attempt it after the Dthrow without concern for DI. Any way to break that?

Re-quoting myself here because my question seemingly got missed.

 

[M15t3R E]

Who should I main besides Greninja? I prefer fast characters.

Other good, fast characters include Pikachu and ZSS. However, they have a learning curve.
If you want to be a tier ***** then Sheik and Diddy are also excellent.

 

[TTYK]

Other good, fast characters include Pikachu and ZSS. However, they have a learning curve.
If you want to be a tier ***** then Sheik and Diddy are also excellent.

Thanks I figured out who I want. Bowser JR.

 

[CrazyPerson]

3. The universal techniques have to come first. Do you know how to DI, fast fall, Short hop, tech chase, wall/floor tech, pivot grab, angle your shield? If so, now go to your character's section and look up their mindgames, combos, AT's, and how they play the neutral game, off-stage, and ledgeplay.

I found some good video's on youtube explaining some of these... but not one on tech chase. Anyone have a good one?

 

[Pazx]

Re-quoting myself here because my question seemingly got missed.

Don't jump (or throw out a move) before you can tell roughly which way they're going (ie you should be able to tell if they're DIing away/no DI or DIing towards you/no DI. It's a habit that's hard to break and re-learning this is important for landing followups for all characters. Try to avoid going into autopilot (eg mindlessly doing dthrow sh fair because you've done it a million times) and really think about which followup is the best choice.

I found some good video's on youtube explaining some of these... but not one on tech chase. Anyone have a good one?

It's character specific sadly, so no video. If you play a character with a move that can cover a large amount of horizontal distance (ie Wizard's Foot, some good projectiles) you can react to your opponents tech option and then go for the punish. Otherwise it's about prediction and mindgames mostly. It's helpful to know exactly what your opponents options are.

When they're about to 'bounce' on the ground they have 4 options: tech in place, roll towards, roll away, no tech. The first three options have invincibility frames on them at the start but have significant punishable endlag.

If your opponent doesn't tech they usually have 4 more options: standard getup, roll forwards, roll backwards, get up attack. Sometimes (jab resets, etc) they are forced to do a standard getup. If you are close to your opponent you should be ready to shield the potential get up attack and be ready to dash in either direction to catch a roll.

 

[bc1910]

I have a question about ledge snap vulnerability that I'd really appreciate an answer for, if anyone knows.

I know how ledge snaps work in general in this game; you get invincibility for the first time you grab the ledge, but every subsequent ledge grab gives you no invincibility at all until you've landed on the stage again. My question is, on that first ledge snap, when exactly does the invincibility begin? Can you hit someone whilst they are snapping to the ledge (like a few frames before they're actually holding on to it) or are they invincible as soon as they start to snap towards it? Any help is much appreciated.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have a question about ledge snap vulnerability that I'd really appreciate an answer for, if anyone knows.

I know how ledge snaps work in general in this game; you get invincibility for the first time you grab the ledge, but every subsequent ledge grab gives you no invincibility at all until you've landed on the stage again. My question is, on that first ledge snap, when exactly does the invincibility begin? Can you hit someone whilst they are snapping to the ledge (like a few frames before they're actually holding on to it) or are they invincible as soon as they start to snap towards it? Any help is much appreciated.

There's about 1 or 2 frames of vulnerability during the beginning of the ledge snap. It's possible to hit them out of it but very difficult.

 

[PMMikey]

I would like to think I'm a pretty good player, but yet I get slammed by the most simplistic things. How can I commit to more advance skills such as RAR or cancels of any kind. Where is the best to practice? All I play is FG and I win some and lose some I want to get good, like really good. I just need to find the best practice.

 

[TheGreatMetagod]

What exactly are you asking? Are you trying to practice your advance techniques, or just practice in general? Most For Glory players aren't very good at all, and if you play with too many bad players (and take them seriously) you'll get bad habits. But, I digress. What type of "simplistic things" causes you problems?

 

[dragontamer]

I think a lot of players are realizing that the lag in For Glory mode is a fundamentally different game than offline play.

For example, opponents who spam roll just lose out offline, because you can just smash attack them out of their rolls. The 4 or 5 frames of online lag (and even TV lag in some cases) can make roll punishing difficult to impossible.

If you're an online player, I'd focus more on winning through proper spacing and a strong neutral game. Punishing your opponent's dumb simple stuff is very difficult with even the slightest amount of lag.

Those couple of frames is the difference between punishing a Mario's or Yoshi's USmash vs whiffing them entirely (due to a Roll / spotdodge) and getting a 2nd USmash to the face.

 

[Funkermonster]

Not exactly gameplay related, but a local smashfest biweekly near me allows just about anyone to commentate, and I thought I'd have a little fun by trying to get into it while I'm not playing a set and I commentated on one match. Problem is, I have no experience in it and I'm still slightly new to the scene, I felt a bit like a moron who didn't know what he was saying (and also because the set was between 2 characters I know little about: G&W and Kirby).

For anyone who's a seasoned commentator, you got any advice for people for people sinterested in it?

 

[mimgrim]

Not exactly gameplay related, but a local smashfest biweekly near me allows just about anyone to commentate, and I thought I'd have a little fun by trying to get into it while I'm not playing a set and I commentated on one match. Problem is, I have no experience in it and I'm still slightly new to the scene, I felt a bit like a moron who didn't know what he was saying (and also because the set was between 2 characters I know little about: G&W and Kirby).

For anyone who's a seasoned commentator, you got any advice for people for people sinterested in it?

@Conda can help you out.

 

[PMMikey]

What exactly are you asking? Are you trying to practice your advance techniques, or just practice in general? Most For Glory players aren't very good at all, and if you play with too many bad players (and take them seriously) you'll get bad habits. But, I digress. What type of "simplistic things" causes you problems?

How can I practice advanced skills? What are the advance skills and where can I find them? All the skills I can find on youtube are just simple things that everyone generally knows I don't know much about cancels and for simplistic things I mean like easily dodge able things that just for some reason I can't get pass. I play 3ds version if that helps

 

[PMMikey]

I really just need to actually know the more advance techniques

 

[TotallyNotMikey]

Heya.

I would class myself as a decent Smash player, good enough to beat most of my friends and people I meet on For Glory.

However, I find myself struggling against people way above my skills level, which must only be natural, but leads to much frustration because I know what my bad habits are.
For example, I suck at:

- Punishing rolls; I know WHERE they'll be but I always attack where they WERE. I can't seem to break this habit at all.

- Tilting. I suck massively at this, I'm not sure if it's the For Glory lag, as I've not played locally for... years, but I constantly so down smashes/front smashes whenever I try to do a tilt. I'm not jabbing the control stick forward or anything, I'm gradually bringing it into position, but 8 times out of 10 it'll result in a Smash, and as a Shulk player, these things are laaaggy, and often result in a smart punish by my opponent.

-Spot dodging. I barely use this, even though I know I should to evade things such as grabs. I just find it rather hard to time these things, or even switch my mindset to use them effectively.

- Switching up my play; For Glory matches can be short and are usually over before my opponent realises what I'm doing. However, those few smart players realise my strategy after the first stock, but I struggle with changing up my style. Shulk's godly aerials kinda make me just... bait into shield grabs. It's annoying, cus I know I shouldn't be doing this.

Mostly, however, I struggle to keep my cool. This is because... well... My minds telling me no, but my body... MY BODY'S TELLIN' ME YEAH. Pretty much.

I often find myself just shouting at my TV screen and blaming things such as lag or the other playing being terrible. I guess I just hate losing, but I shouldn't be getting upset at rankings people can't see, nor should I be getting mad at god damn Smash Brothers.

The very few times I did lose to my friends, I didn't mind. Not sure why that is.

However, I do strive to improve. Some would say identifying weaknesses is the first step, and I believe I've listed most of them. I've been told a sparring partner might be a good idea, but considering I beat all of my friends, I'm not really improving as much as I should, and For Glory just makes me wanna rip my hair out.

Any tips or whatever, please, let me know. I'm really curious as to how I can improve my game.

 

[moofpi]

-Rolls: Same problem
-TILTS: SAME PROBLEM GAH.
A lot of people will tell you to switch your C-Stick for tilts, though if you're like me, you just can't really adjust to that.
If you hold up on your control stick (either slightly or all the way I can't remember) and tap up on the C-stick, you get an Up Tilt. Same if you hold down and flick down on the C-stick. I'm not sure if there's a way to get side tilts, though I would love to know.
-Spot Dodging: Same same same

-Sometimes I can switch up my play, then bring back the strong parts of my starting play, but I feel you. I feel like an open book and it's frustrating sometimes.

 

[TotallyNotMikey]

Man, a wave of relief just passed through my body reading all that, to know I'm not the only one that does that stuff is just fantastic.

The C-stick, yeah, I can't adjust to it either. Even if I did switch it to tilts, I guarantee I'll just try to use it for a Smash some time and be like 'Oh. They're tilts now.... GAME!'

 

[moofpi]

And of course those C-Stick tips were for when C-Stick is set to Smash, you still do tilts while using the control stick.

But yeah, I have two name tags with different controls. My main one with C-stick for Smash, and the other for C-stick to tilts. Sometimes I play characters that are very tilt intensive and just need it, but I could never do it full time.

Also if you use your C-stick during aerials, you know to just flick it right? If you hold the C-stick down it will kill all momentum you have, but if you flick it you'll keep going.

I don't know if I'm a fan of the C-stick this time around.

But yeah, look to see if there is a local Smash scene in your area. I found one in mine that I go to once a week and it's an eye opener and really the fastest way to improve.

 

[TotallyNotMikey]

Also if you use your C-stick during aerials, you know to just flick it right? If you hold the C-stick down it will kill all momentum you have, but if you flick it you'll keep going.

Yep, I do that anything. Always have, mostly so I can get back to the face button a bit faster. I've never noticed holding it killing your momentum, probably cus I never hold it.

I doubt I have any local Smash scene. The area I live in is kinda... messy when it comes to organising stuff like that. Hell, we've only just got a shop willing to host card game tournaments.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Is there a comprehensive frame data guide for smash 4?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but would really appreciate some direction

 

[mimgrim]

Is there a comprehensive frame data guide for smash 4?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but would really appreciate some direction

http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-smash-academy.514/

^This place has all kinds of magical data, Including...

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

 

[GhostUrsa]

Punishing rolls takes practice, so if you are having a particular character giving you trouble when trying to punish I'd recommend having a friend play as that character and trying different things to hit them as they roll. You can also set the AI to Jump(if I remember correctly. There maybe another to use) and pressure it toward the edge and it will try to roll around you/ away from you. Can be good for practicing what distances and invincible frames that character has.

Spot dodging comes to practice as well, unfortunately. I try to restrain myself to doing it to smashes when possible when I started, but as I progressed I was able to use it when reading opponents to punish grabs and specials at times too.

I've two issues that I still struggle with at times, one that relates and the other that doesn't with the OP. I have a temper as well, though it doesn't come out as screaming at the screen or anything. It's inner focused, knowing that my mind can see what the opponent is doing but the body isn't quite fast enough to perform. This is more particular since my main is Ike, who is slower anyway. What helped me, was to change how I behaved with that character. It's possible that you may be rushing a character that isn't a rushing type, like Ike isn't fast enough to run someone down all the time. When I started experimenting, I found a style that works great for my neutral stance. Once that was discovered, my goal during a match wasn't "How do I fight this guy/girl?" but more "How do I adapt my stance to keep him/her guessing?". The second question becomes much easier to keep myself from getting flustered, as it comes down to smaller changes in my playstyle to adapt over the entire match then constantly throwing new random ideas hoping something sticks. 'Fishing' can be good, but in becomes luck if relied on too much. That and if I do get flustered, I just need to return to my neutral style and start looking at new ideas. Sometimes the jarring change to neutral can throw my opponent off.

My second issue is that I have a hard time pivot grabbing from a standing position. I'll often set someone up to land near me within grabbing distance, but will push too hard on the stick and overstep the grab by one step. I haven't found any tricks to train my muscles to pull the grab off easily, like when I was learning how to Reverse Aerial B-Air with Ike. I fear it may just come down to unlearning some bad habit I picked up.

Any recommendations on learning how to turn and grab without walking would help.