Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[DavemanCozy]

Rolling is not always a bad thing. It certainly has its uses, like resetting a bad situation to neutral or crossing up an opponent's laggy move.

You can use Full-hops to escape some grounded threats, short-hops with a retreating move covering yourself (with Shulk, short-hop retreating F-air is good), or just use your dash / walking. Look at what your opponent is doing to properly choose your movement option to avoid theirs.

 

[Muro]

rolling is a very good option, you should try not to be predictable with it rather than stop using it altogether.

 

[Kaladin]

How does one best learn fundamentals? I have a decent amount of knowledge about the game, my character, and different techniques (Different mind games, B-reversing, wave-whatevering, what MUs look like, frame data, etc), but I'm still a mediocre player because I have crap fundamentals. How do you get them down effectively? Heck, what are good fundamentals?

 

[Gunla]

Hello, i was hoping some one could give me some advice on how to reduce how much i roll. From watching my replays and just watching how i play in general i have noticed roll ks always my first defensive option next to shield.
I feel like i need to use short hops and other options for spacing but mid match i always come back to roll spam.

If it helps at all i main Duck Hunt and Shulk. Thanks in advance =D

I moved this post (and subsequent replies) into this thread. Just a reminder.

 

[deepseadiva]

How does one best learn fundamentals? I have a decent amount of knowledge about the game, my character, and different techniques (Different mind games, B-reversing, wave-whatevering, what MUs look like, frame data, etc), but I'm still a mediocre player because I have crap fundamentals. How do you get them down effectively? Heck, what are good fundamentals?

Just play. Play people as often as you can - particularly people better than you.

That's really the only way.

 

[Shaya]

I'm having a major issue.

I get salty way too easily if I lose too much, and I'm not sure what to do about it. I want to become better, but I keep making mistakes and I KNOW what I'm doing wrong, but I can't fix them. I try to punish things I know I can punish, but all I'm doing is getting worse. The more I play I get worse, all the practice I make into becoming a great player is all for nothing if I just lose on FG to someone I know I can beat, and I just make the same mistakes over and over. I watch my replays, I talk to those over smashladder, I even research my characters on a daily basis, but I always lose. What should I do to improve? What should I do?

I love the game, but I'm just getting worse the more I play. I also hate giving up. What should I do?

What are you actually researching? What are you learning? What's your goals when you do things?
Success is mostly intangible (especially on wifi conditions), you need to find achievable and understandable goals that are on a personal level rather than "win more". You're not confident in certain things already, you should be; you don't need ladders for that. You don't need to be playing humans/wifi for that either.

When you say you 'KNOW' what you're doing wrong, do you know how to do it right?

 

[KittyKyat]

What are you actually researching? What are you learning? What's your goals when you do things?
Success is mostly intangible (especially on wifi conditions), you need to find achievable and understandable goals that are on a personal level rather than "win more". You're not confident in certain things already, you should be; you don't need ladders for that. You don't need to be playing humans/wifi for that either.

When you say you 'KNOW' what you're doing wrong, do you know how to do it right?

The fundamentals, matchups and how to deal with them, and a few ATs. I spend quite a bit of time practicing my general movements (Pivot grabs, OOS options, spacing) and how I can use my moves (such as shield back and keeping my opponnents at bay).I know how to use them correctly as well, but I'm just feeling I mess up on the execution side of things and I get a little more frantic.

Now, as for goals, my goal is simple: to improve and become the best I can be. Maybe its a bit vague, but its what I want to do. Could you give me an example of a goal though?

 

[Shaya]

You didn't take me as abstractly as I would've liked, but if you have an end-game goal like "become the best I can be" you are giving your mind something it can't really measure as something to strive for, you'll be frustrated as long as you can't split things up.

Sometimes losing doesn't matter. If you make a mistake in a certain situation and if I were trying to resolve that I would be focusing all my mental efforts in practice to bring that situation up frequently and doing whatever it takes to do the right choice, don't get upset if you mess it up. Eventually it will become normal.
Often to me it's "this person always does this here, and I'm not punishing it like I would want", you'll see me throw every thing plus the kitchen sink at it toiling over who knows how many matches or different sessions until I crack/overcome it, how I would treat it in tournament would be "respect" for my weaknesses and their strengths and avoid that situation.

My reason for playing is to improve, once upon a time it was to win. They fortunately come hand in hand a bit but I have a healthier mindset that produces less frustrations (I would hope) than otherwise. I can see what I'm weak in and go "I want to improve in just this" and work on it. That's the type of goals you're looking for.

 

[Xeze]

Can someone give me advice on pivot grabs? Most of the time when I turn around and use the grab command, I end up doing a pivot f-tilt instead of a grab. Is there any specific timing or trick to consistently perform a pivot grab? Thanks in advance.

 

[PUK]

You have to push both buttons exactly at the same time, without letting the pad reset to neutral
,+grab

 

[Xeze]

Thanks, I got it now

 

[KittyKyat]

You didn't take me as abstractly as I would've liked, but if you have an end-game goal like "become the best I can be" you are giving your mind something it can't really measure as something to strive for, you'll be frustrated as long as you can't split things up.

Sometimes losing doesn't matter. If you make a mistake in a certain situation and if I were trying to resolve that I would be focusing all my mental efforts in practice to bring that situation up frequently and doing whatever it takes to do the right choice, don't get upset if you mess it up. Eventually it will become normal.
Often to me it's "this person always does this here, and I'm not punishing it like I would want", you'll see me throw every thing plus the kitchen sink at it toiling over who knows how many matches or different sessions until I crack/overcome it, how I would treat it in tournament would be "respect" for my weaknesses and their strengths and avoid that situation.

My reason for playing is to improve, once upon a time it was to win. They fortunately come hand in hand a bit but I have a healthier mindset that produces less frustrations (I would hope) than otherwise. I can see what I'm weak in and go "I want to improve in just this" and work on it. That's the type of goals you're looking for.

So, change my goals to more short-term goals? Simple enough.

Another issue is just losing confidence so perhaps it have given me the help I needed. Thank you.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

The issue I'm having is breaking thru to the next level. At tournaments I consistently do about average (mostly 9th place finishes with 20+ ppl). In one tournament, I made it out of my pool but then went 0-3 in the finals round robin. In another tournament, I made it to the top 16 bracket (out of 70+ ppl) but then was eliminated 0-2. I seem to do well against lower level players but then I'm faced with higher level players I get beat. Kinda convincingly too. I can take a stock or game here and there but I lose every time. I feel as if I'm right in the middle of being a good player and just ok. Any advice on the steps I should take to push thru? Thanks.

 

[InkThinks]

I feel like the more I try to use advanced techniques and the more I try to stop rolling and start spot dodgeing, shielding or avoiding and when I try to read rolls, I just do worse than I would if I wasnt trying... what am I doing wrong?

 

[Shaya]

Don't do anything instead from time to time and see what happens. You're trying to play a read-based game ("RPS mindset") with tools that are meant to be more reactive applied to succeed with.

No advanced technique in this game replaces or supplements any other fundamental tool. They're just an extra option that only extends what you can sometimes.

 

[Blue Banana]

Not sure if it belongs here or in the Mechanics thread, but is there a way to ensure that I input a smash attack rather than a tilt? It tends to happen when I try to do a turnaround Fsmash, but I apparently don't tap the control stick hard enough, resulting in a less effective Ftilt. I use the original Wii Classic Controller with the right stick set to "Attack."

 

[Shaya]

Hit the stick in the opposing/attacking direction once quickly and then immediately press it again as a smash attack.

 

[Rubenoob]

Can any one give me advice on how to mash effectively? I can mash with good speed, but if I escape I usually end up throwing out a laggy move or (more embarrassingly) SDing with rouge up-b. What is the safest way to mash?

 

[Foar]

I main fox and i'm looking for a secondary.

 

[pershona]

Diddy,Falcon,Luigi and Sheik are all good rushdown characters

 

[Strider755]

I need to know if any of my characters can run a viable hyper-offensive strategy: Charizard, Pit/DarkPit, Bowser, Samus, ZSS. I prefer to end battles quickly. If so, how can I do it and still keep my opponent guessing?

 

[Raijinken]

Zero Suit Samus is the best of those at sheer aggression. Mix up aerials, your neutral-B, down-B, and your jab, with occasional grabs or dash attacks to apply pressure.

Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, and Yoshi are all pretty good for it, too.

 

[AnchorTea]

How do I Battlefield? Every time i'm on that stage, I get rekt.

 

[Foar]

How do I Battlefield? Every time i'm on that stage, I get rekt.

Control the center stage, I assume you play villager. You can poke with up-air through the platforms, make sure they don't find comfort on the platforms.

 

[AnchorTea]

Control the center stage, I assume you play villager. You can poke with up-air through the platforms, make sure they don't find comfort on the platforms.

What about Ness and Blue Bomber?

 

[Foar]

What about Ness and Blue Bomber?

With Mega Man I would suggest using up air to control the platforms, You can also apply a ton of pressure and space out people well by using metal blades. Flame sword is amazing for catching people on platforms as well. Remember to space people out using lemons, as they are probably one of the best walling/zoning tools in the game.

What about Ness and Blue Bomber?

I don't really play ness that well but chaining Fairs is easier when you have platforms to work with. Just play keep away until you can find an opening with a grab or PK fire, try to mix up the PK fires you use as spamming is never a good thing with ness.

 

[Zodiacx10]

welp...im here again to talk about how bad i am. it doesn't matter how many guides i read, how many videos i watch...how many hours i play this game every single day...im still horrible. its been like 4 months of me playing for hours every day and guess what...i doesnt even matter one bit. i get destroyed by everyone on for glory and in my skype group all the time. i think my winrate overall is like less than 5% with skype groups and for glory matches combined. the only people i seem to be able to beat are those who are very new or dont own the game.

the person last time suggested taking a break (which i did for like a week) and come back...but that did not help at all.

i hate to say this...but if i dont see any improvements in like the next month or im just gonna quit and sell the game or something because its not fun for me to play at all. it just makes me upset all the time.

 

[Foar]

welp...im here again to talk about how bad i am. it doesn't matter how many guides i read, how many videos i watch...how many hours i play this game every single day...im still horrible. its been like 4 months of me playing for hours every day and guess what...i doesnt even matter one bit. i get destroyed by everyone on for glory and in my skype group all the time. i think my winrate overall is like less than 5% with skype groups and for glory matches combined. the only people i seem to be able to beat are those who are very new or dont own the game.

the person last time suggested taking a break (which i did for like a week) and come back...but that did not help at all.

i hate to say this...but if i dont see any improvements in like the next month or im just gonna quit and sell the game or something because its not fun for me to play at all. it just makes me depressed all the time.

Honestly you probably should drop it. Not to seem harsh or anything but if a video game is making you depressed than you probably should stop.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You could also try playing it casually and have different kinds of fun with it. Not everyone have the same talents, and maybe you need a different approach before trying competitive.

 

[Steffano]

What are Frame traps? how does priority work? how to do strings? Hurt boxes and hit boxes, how do they work? How does Captain Falcons Knee work? Pivot grabs? When I try to pivot grab I usually always do a forward tilt, only occasionally do I get the pivot grab. I can string Ness's forward air, but I can't seem to string shiek's forward air, or captain Falcons up air, could you guys help me with this? I'm just looking for information so if you guys have links to explain these questions it would be fantastic. If I'm Posting in the incorrect place move the thread mod, thank you. I was going to make another video of me getting rekt but I don't think you guys would enjoy that haha. Also I've been training with the guy who rekt me and I have approved somewhat. There are occasions in various games in where I know I'm the better player and I know I can win the game but I don't. Any suggestions on this?

 

[Vinylic.]

Hey, is there an irc dedicated to find any changes on the next patch? I'd like to have my time looking for anything that may have changed by tomorrow as I play a multitude of characters.

 

[Tornado]

I have a good idea of how many times I can push A after I grab someone at whatever hit percentage before I'll let them go. Whether I can do it once or 3 times, I do the minimum before the throw to give them that small bit of extra damage.

So unless there's something I'm missing (which I'm assuming there is), why is it when I watch competitive smash players on YouTube videos, do many just throw the instant they grab them?

 

[Ranias]

I want to know this as well. Maybe to prevent retaliation from the throw? Faster means less time to react. I guess if you have a really fast throw then it is more useful to throw immediately rather than later.

 

[Raijinken]

Against humans, who can't possibly mash as fast as CPUs to break out, the only reasons I can think of to throw without bashing are as follows:

You have a mobile throw (Kirby, Charizard, Metaknight, and ROB u-throws, Sonic backthrow), and are relying on that timing to hit a certain terrain entity (for instance, landing on the Smashville platform right before it moves away, giving you a slightly earlier kill percent).

You're under time pressure to obtain a kill (the timer is about to hit zero).

You know they're already well over kill percent (and thus pummeling is literally stalling for no purpose aside muscle memory or spite).

You just want to go fast.

 

[Alus]

You can break grabs pretty fast. Almost instantly. I believe high level players could break grabs pretty fast. I would imagine most people would rather get their throw and put their opponent in a disadvantageous position in addition for that 10% than to risk losing it for that 4%.

At higher percents you probably dont want your opponent thinking about how to DI that throw that sets up for a kill. And if you're going for the kill why get extra damage?

Just a guess or two.

 

[Shaya]

we will have a thread dedicated for it all opening when it drops.

 

[Tornado]

You can break grabs pretty fast. Almost instantly. I believe high level players could break grabs pretty fast. I would imagine most people would rather get their throw and put their opponent in a disadvantageous position in addition for that 10% than to risk losing it for that 4%.

At higher percents you probably dont want your opponent thinking about how to DI that throw that sets up for a kill. And if you're going for the kill why get extra damage?

Just a guess or two.

I certainly understand that. I guess for me, it's an unfortunate side-effect of about 98% of my smash 4 play being "For Glory". I never really run into people who get out of throws fast.

 

[Ranias]

I think pummel goes into the stale move negation list. That's the main reason why I always try to pummel if I can as Ness. Ness's throws are pretty slow, so my opponent can DI correctly most of the time regardless of if I pummel or not.

 

[ChickenJon]

Its to give your opponent less time to di/vector your throw. The pummel damage isn't worth losing the offensive pressure you gain from performing a non-influenced throw.

 

[deepseadiva]

Honestly I think most people forget. LOL!

But some when people consciously choose not to pummel, it's for some of the above mentioned reasons. Mainly very good players being able to mash out instantly. Imagine getting a much needed grab with Ness at like 300% and you went for some greedy extra pummels, the opponent mashes out, and smashes you when they get released. That'd be embarrassing.

I don't think players are instantly throwing to "surprise" the opponent to capitalize on bad DI... It's usually really easy to respond to a throw animation. SOMETIMES you can trick opponents, I've seen that multiple times when getting a grab on the Smashville platform when it's near the blastzone. But I don't think that's common.

People will say it's to avoid opponents mashing out, but I still think it's cuz everyone forgets haha.

In past games, you can get a certain amount of guaranteed pummels if your opponent had a certain amount of damage. Something like one pummel per every 50% of damage (don't quote meeeeeee). But I'm sure that's in this game too (hopefully).