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G&W mains : 3 things worth discussing

Nicole

Smash Champion
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May 23, 2008
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I'll try to keep this brief. I went to a tournament in Des Moines this weekend, and while I didn't do particularly well, there are some things that I noticed that I think are worth talking about. These things not only apply to improving your G&W, but improving at Brawl in general. So here they are.

1) Landing the kill:
While Game & Watch has some ******** powerful smashes, landing them on a competent, campy, and cautious opponent can be tricky. There are few reliable ways to land a hit on these types of players, and you've mostly got to rely on punishing the opponent's mistakes. If your opponent doesn't make very many mistakes, this can be difficult. You can also gimp, but again, this too is often ineffective against these kinds of opponents. It's pretty discouraging to play G&W, known for killing early, and not actually being able to KILL. So how do we deal with these types of characters? Are there any strategies that make killing any easier? This leads me into my next point...

2) Patient Play:
When you get into this situation, where your opponent has reached killing percentages, the worst possible thing to do (that I do pretty often, and I'm sure the rest of you have all been guilty of at one point or another as well!) is to get greedy for the kill. You start to play sloppy and desperately, and this is especially bad for G&W, a character who relies on tight spacing and being unpredictable with predictable moves. The real difficulty here is that your opponent will be playing even more cautiously when they get to high percentages, and you'll have less chances to punish their mistakes, and also, that G&W is light, and needs to kill earlier to negate his weight issue, and can take fewer hits from an opponent that is consistently surviving to silly percentages. BUT...does this mean that greed for the kill is bad? As G&W mains, we don't want our opponent to hang around forever, with multiple opportunities to damage us as we wait for the right moment to kill them. So how do we reach the balance between patience and greed?

3) Adaptation:
Game & Watch is a predictable character. When you're playing a G&W, what do you expect? Turtle. Turtle. Turtle. Not to say that the turtle isn't an awesome move - it is. But against different opponents, you've got to use it differently, in different situations. You cannot play every opponent the same, and you can't approach from the same angle, and sometimes, you shouldn't approach much at all. Everyone has a pattern, and you've got to exploit that - G&W is one of the best punishers out there. The easiest way to do this, as you probably know, is to learn to watch your opponent more than you watch yourself (you can practice this against CPUs to get used to watching your enemy). Additionally, you've got to notice when your opponent is adapting to you. This is more difficult. G&W can't afford to be very predictable, however, it's difficult to be UNpredictable. So, what are the most important things we can do to be unpredictable? How can we teach ourselves, not only to play unpredictably, but effectively, and without reliance on one or two attacking patterns, wonderful though they may be? If we do not learn to keep our opponents guessing, we are going to get beaten more and more. And come on! We play G&W - the 4th or 5th best character in the game! He is a nearly unbeatable character, played correctly, up there with the likes of Meta Knight, Falco, Snake, and DDD. And yet his tournament showings have recently been poor - WHY? If unpredictability is the key (and I think it is), why are we playing so predictably? How can we improve?

Most of this is pretty common knowledge, but I did think these points were worth discussing, especially because they are all related. A few of my fellow G&W mains are quitting him in search of a better character, which is really disappointing, because there aren't very many better characters. Game & Watch isn't the problem, it's the humans controlling him, we are the reasons that we lose confidence in G&W.

Discuss (or flame me :) )
 

Neb

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Apr 19, 2008
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Good players can actually use predictability against certain characters by conditioning. I don't believe it is that great of a soft spot, just do random crap when its safe, and throw in attacks in different situations. One perk of being calculable is that you know what your opponent is thinking, they know your options- all you have to do is think around that. Game & Watch leaks uncertainty, he's a very strange character, in all aspects. If your maining him you need to be creative. The biggest problem to me with G&W would have to be landing smashes.
 

K 2

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
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Tennessee
When you're opponent is at kill percentage, you don't have to run around randomly smashing. Just play as you normally do and wait for an opening, then punish.
 

animeblitzballa33

Smash Ace
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Nov 11, 2008
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952
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United States of Japan
I was actually supposed to be at this same tourny but weather prevented me, but anyways...
I have been thinking those exact same things. I play a friend who i can go % to % with, but consistantly beats me because of his survivability. K 2 makes a good point about not just throwing out smashes. Just keep playing normal, there is no need to change ur style because you feel rushed to kill them.

Within the past couple months i have also gotten better at knowing when my opponent has figured me out, which i feel is a huge step to take. But that is only half cause you still need to counter it. Im still having trouble with this one myself, but i would say just remember your moves and the many uses each one has, if ur becoming predictable and are leaving out one of those uses, start using it.
 

Dylacmac

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
6
Landing kills certainly can be a problem, but one of the reasons that I eventually decided on game and watch as a main is his unbelievable variety of kill moves. His smashes are all highly useable in the right situations, and come out plenty quick to punish with. A sweetspotted fair on or off stage kills early, and I think that game and watch might have the most effective off stage game of any character other than metaknight.

I completely agree about the predictability though. Turtle is almost as notorious as the 'nado, and many characters have become pretty comfortable dealing with it, and even punishing it. And I think neb made a good point, game and watch is a strange character, and that can be used to our advantage. His dash, his jump, everything about him is so jerky and seemingly random that relatively simple movements can keep your opponent guessing. When not directly engage with my opponent, I try to constantly dash back and forth, short hop and slide, and change directions. As long as you aren't too crazy it won't hurt your approach. If anything it will improve it, because you'll have more options and your opponent won't be able to predict you as well.

Dylacmac
 

Pious Geometry

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
12
Once my opponent reaches the killing percents I change my game completely...

I think playing a very aggressive GaW then finding yourself playing a very defensive GaW throws a lot of people off

I really like using Dthrow to get kills

Grab Dthrow Usmash

Grab Dthrow Dsmash

I generally find myself going into DDD mode after my opponent is +100%
 

POKE40

Smash Lord
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Aug 27, 2008
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♥ My post count is my age. Deal with it.
you could use bacon to help you land the smash...or attracting a punish on GW and you punish back. You could also (like you said) don't even approach them.

Landing the kill will be the obvious hardest of them all...

There is many ways of killing a opponent such as d throw and d smash (or any other way really).
 

AzNfinesse

Smash Journeyman
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May 30, 2008
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415
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Las Vegas, NV
Great Topic. Especially for the GnW players trying to get to that competitive level.

In terms of landing a kill, GnW has a wide variety of attacks. It doesn't necessarily have to be a smash attack for GnW to land a kill. His infamous F-air is also known for punishing characters who leave themselves open when trying to recover, making GnW a formidable opponent on the edge, especially with his great recovery skills. Also, his U-air is also known for making some out-of-nowhere kills. To add on to it, his D-throw is an excellent tool to follow up with a punishing attack, like a D-smash, Judge, or Oil Panic. Learning to use ALL of GnW's attacks to your advantage is key.

In terms of patience and trying to finish off a campy/cautious player, GnW, even though he relies on tight spacing, also has some room for error. GnW has some of the fastest attacks in the game. His D-tilt is an excellent follow-up for a missed F-smash and appears almost instantly. The Jab attack (Greenhouse) is also excellent for fixing an error you make to prevent yourself from getting punished. It's true that GnW is the 3rd lightest character in the game and you may want the early kill, but at the same time, being greedy is NOT a good idea (I had to learn that the hard way). Waiting for your perfect opening is the best way to approach a cautious character. Continue to use your N-air and B-airs to continue to rack up damage and keep your opponent on the defensive. The last thing a GnW needs is an aggressive Snake or MK. When your opponent leaves a gap in their defenses, then punish them for it. GnW can gimp many skills in the game, so learn what attacks work best against each character.

In terms of adaptation, GnW is a very simplistic character. GnW has very limited ways to approach a fight, but use his simplicity to your advantage. Many players that play against a GnW expect a turtle when you face away from them. Learn other approaches, such as a pivot grab or a smash attack. Punish your opponent for thinking of GnW as predicable. Learning to use mind games is also the most important weapon in your arsenal. Manipulating your opponent to do exactly what you want them to do is key to GnW, as is any character in the game. Learning to adapt to a situation takes practice, and not with a Lv. 9 CPU, but with living, breathing, human beings with a brain and the same ablility to use mindgames.

Sorry this was long...I'm bored sitting here staring at my screen.
 

CloneHat

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Jan 18, 2009
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This topic's really helpful, thanks! I personally find the Chef is a good means of stopping opponents' approaches and leading into a smash/grab. I think it's best to wait for opponents to come for you, because G&W has plenty of good moves for deflecting people's approaches.
 

LouBega

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Sep 16, 2007
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447
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Kirksville, MO
i find that when trying to get a kill, hitting the opponent with a fully charged up smash or oil panic does the trick!
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
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Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
Dash-dancing to a Nair might be a random move that could work. =P
No, that sounds like I can do whatever I want and kill you for free. Why would you even suggest that? Randomly jumping around doing moves that are a poor fit to the task is not good smash.

As far as killing someone, the trick to it is to put people in uncomfortable situations. Use your U-air multiple times to float them. Rush them down to force a situation where you can up-B them. Throw out a random downsmash and see if they try to punish it. Knock them off the edge with a d-tilt. Weaken their shield and go for shield pokes. Knock them into the air and wait until they land to go for a grab d-throw combo. Eventually they'll roll into something stupid, you just have to put in the work. The worst thing you can do against a good player is stop spacing and stop countering their moves and start throwing out smashes.
 

Nicole

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4) turning your tap jump off

i agree!

also, something that may sound strange, but works in sports (and i think it could work for smash too)...try not to look at your opponent's percentage. it really makes you stay focused on DAMAGING them rather than getting caught up with trying to kill them, and making mistakes of your own. i find not looking at their percentage kind of hard though...
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
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Dec 1, 2006
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Tennessee V_V
i agree!

also, something that may sound strange, but works in sports (and i think it could work for smash too)...try not to look at your opponent's percentage. it really makes you stay focused on DAMAGING them rather than getting caught up with trying to kill them, and making mistakes of your own. i find not looking at their percentage kind of hard though...
You look at your opponents damage % in sports?
 

animeblitzballa33

Smash Ace
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Nov 11, 2008
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You look at your opponents damage % in sports?
Well yeah, isnt that how football works?

But im pretty sure he means in sports you can get caught up in the score, but that shouldnt matter cause you should always give it ur all and dont forget the basics. Im assuming you knew he meant this, but in case you didnt...:)
 

Taeran

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 24, 2008
Messages
414
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VA
don't ever use CPU's to practice, but everything else sounds good.
The point is not to practice, but to learn to WATCH your opponent. Watching for patterns is vital to predicting and punishing with any character, and it vital with characters with good punishing games such as Game & Watch.

I've had sickly long matches with another gaw, because all of the game is punishing and...

well...

Other gaws know how to counter punish gaws, so it lasts a LONG time...


Edit: YAAAY 333th post

lol
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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May 15, 2006
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Boston MA
The way I see it, knowing the damage is only good as you know hoe they'll be knocked back better--using it to change playstyle is stupid... Yeah, Don't worry about saving killmoves--d-smash, f-smash, up-smash, and f-air can't possibly be stale at the same time =P.

The way I play G&W goes back to me being a melee doc main--I just focus on getting damage, even if it meaning smashing at low percents--if they leave the opening, do it. Edge-guard smart, which is easy with b-air, f-air and up B.

NoJ: why turn off tap-jump?
 

MagicJosh

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 22, 2007
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Hartland, WI
I usually keep MY tap jump on just because I grew up playing smash never using x or y, and it seemed to work out just fine.
 
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