Frame Cancel

[Lavani]

I suppose I should probably dump this here for reference too.

Ganon dair:

@ -RedX-

Has anyone started testing it on special moves? Probably harder to test due to timing and most specials having less landing lag than normal aerials, and since most specials have their own animations, I'm not sure it'd even be noticeable. Maybe on something like an aerial Falcon/Wizard's Kick onto a grounded opponent.

I'm not really sure what specials this could be applied to. A lot of them just have their own fixed end lag that transitions from air to ground, so there isn't lag to cancel like this. Falcon Kick/Wizard Foot don't have the hitlag to facilitate this and they have a landing hit too anyway.

I'll mess with it if I can think of something to try it with I guess.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

So the theory is...

Both players experience hit lag on hit.
On moves with extra hit lag, if the attacking character would land in the next frame of the move (or it came out at the same time or some other similar scenario), the difference (theory) between the standard hit lag and the extended hit lag would be subject to landing lag frames.

A few questions/assumptions that need to be proven:
Is it the hit lag difference or is it any hit lag being neglected (even 1.0 modifiers), what happens on moves with less hit lag? (divide by zero)
Falcon's knee with some 10 odd base hit lag going to 15, is he getting 5 frames less lag than he normally would, or is it 15? 10? what?

And does the move have to hit on the same frame it comes out, or is the only condition landing a frame after you hit an opponent.

Ok, so your theory is that the frame difference between the expected hitlag and the actual hitlag (experienced by the attacker) is what contributes to the reduction in landing lag, correct?

 

[RanserSSF4]

I can imagine this tech with Smooth Lander badge (If it works).....Dair infinites for falco lol

That aside, this is interesting that Falco and now Falcon can do this, but only with some of their highest laggy air moves. Going to test this when I go to training mode. I don't think you can combo falcons knee into another move with this tech, but we'll see!

 

[Shaya]

Well Ganondorf's dair doesn't have hit lag modifiers according to mastercore.

So otherwise, hitlag of the move in general is being taken off the landing lag ?
Does the move have to hit the moment it comes out as well is the next question.

 

[Lavani]

I can imagine this tech with Smooth Lander badge (If it works).....Dair infinites for falco lol

That aside, this is interesting that Falco and now Falcon can do this, but only with some of their highest laggy air moves. Going to test this when I go to training mode. I don't think you can combo falcons knee into another move with this tech, but we'll see!

I got Knee>Dash Attack and Knee>nair/uair at lower percents, it doesn't look like there's any real combo potential past ~15% or so though.

Well Ganondorf's dair doesn't have hit lag modifiers accoding to Dantarion.

So otherwise, hitlag of the move in general is being taken off the landing lag ?

Seems that way.

 

[Ffamran]

So the theory is...

Both players experience hit lag on hit.
On moves with extra hit lag, if the attacking character would land in the next frame of the move (or it came out at the same time or some other similar scenario), the difference (theory) between the standard hit lag and the extended hit lag would be subject to landing lag frames.

A few questions/assumptions that need to be proven:
Is it the hit lag difference or is it any hit lag being neglected (even 1.0 modifiers), what happens on moves with less hit lag? (divide by zero)
Falcon's knee with some 10 odd base hit lag going to 15, is he getting 5 frames less lag than he normally would, or is it 15? 10? what?

And does the move have to hit on the same frame it comes out, or is the only condition landing a frame after you hit an opponent.

Shaya. You're hurting my brain.

Weird thought for me is... I'm going to use Ganondorf's Fair for this. Well, if Ganondorf lands it on the air, then he still has to go through the process of landing. Let's say, that's 10 frames, 5 for the hit lag and 5 for landing - all of this is made up so my brain doesn't become mush. Now, if he lands it and through video-game physics and control inputs, and lands while hitting, then he doesn't have to go through with the process of landing. So, let's say, that's 6 frames, 5 for landing and 1 for frame cancel.

In a way, it's reducing the amount of frames. Is that how I'm supposed to understand what you said?

A part of me doesn't want to insult you and say nothing, but another part of me wants to ask you to explain it in layman's terms.

Has anyone started testing it on special moves? Probably harder to test due to timing and most specials having less landing lag than normal aerials, and since most specials have their own animations, I'm not sure it'd even be noticeable. Maybe on something like an aerial Falcon/Wizard's Kick onto a grounded opponent.

Is that even possible since Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot basically forces Captain Falcon and Ganondorf to the ground?

It might be possible with say, Falcon Punch, what that would be a pain to land.

Unrelated, but could anyone test out Wii Fit Trainer's Dair for this? I think it would make WFT's Dair much more useful since it can kill grounded opponents and being able to combo out of it or something would be interesting.

 

[Shaya]

@ Ffamran that's not the case that hit lag modifiers are the reason this works in any capacity (from what we see). But it could determine how much 'landing lag' you end up having.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well Ganondorf's dair doesn't have hit lag modifiers according to mastercore.

So otherwise, hitlag of the move in general is being taken off the landing lag ?
Does the move have to hit the moment it comes out as well is the next question.

In his video Izaw said you have to hit with DAir's first active frame

Also I just looked at Ganondorf's DAir and by jove you're right. Don't electric attribute moves have hitlag modifiers though?

Shaya. You're hurting my brain.

Weird thought for me is... I'm going to use Ganondorf's Fair for this. Well, if Ganondorf lands it on the air, then he still has to go through the process of landing. Let's say, that's 10 frames, 5 for the hit lag and 5 for landing - all of this is made up so my brain doesn't become mush. Now, if he lands it and through video-game physics and control inputs, and lands while hitting, then he doesn't have to go through with the process of landing. So, let's say, that's 6 frames, 5 for landing and 1 for frame cancel.

In a way, it's reducing the amount of frames. Is that how I'm supposed to understand what you said?

A part of me doesn't want to insult you and say nothing, but another part of me wants to ask you to explain it in layman's terms.


Is that even possible since Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot basically forces Captain Falcon and Ganondorf to the ground?

It might be possible with say, Falcon Punch, what that would be a pain to land.

Unrelated, but could anyone test out Wii Fit Trainer's Dair for this? I think it would make WFT's Dair much more useful since it can kill grounded opponents and being able to combo out of it or something would be interesting.

I'll give WFT's DAir a shot but since I haven't been able to get it to work with any other characters ( ;_; ) then there are no promises and other people should try as well.

 

[Shaya]

In his video Izaw said you have to hit with DAir's first active frame

That could just be the way Falco's dair is though, how are you hitting with it one frame before landing other than the first frame of the hitbox.

And maybe, not sure if that's applicable. But it could very well be.

 

[Raijinken]

Another theory. Contrasting past games, a fastfall is now canceled when starting an aerial. Some relation to re-starting (or starting for the first time) a fastfall during the move, which the game might think is impossible and thus treats the landing lag differently?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I still think it has something to do with landing at the same time that you hit someone. Last I checked, the attacker can't move while in hitlag, so what's this nonsense about landing during it? (Seriously though, if I'm wrong here I'd want to know.) If you step through the CF gif, you can see the cloud of dust begining to form as the knee connects for the one on the right, while the landing dust cloud comes out only after the hitlag has ended in the one on the left. As I said earlier, this makes me think that the landing lag frames of the knee start when the move connects (when you see the dust cloud) and a lot of the landing lag frames are simply spent in hitlag which gives the illusion of cancelling landing lag even though in a strict sense, you're not.

 

[-RedX-]

I suppose I should probably dump this here for reference too.

Ganon dair:

@ -RedX-


I'm not really sure what specials this could be applied to. A lot of them just have their own fixed end lag that transitions from air to ground, so there isn't lag to cancel like this. Falcon Kick/Wizard Foot don't have the hitlag to facilitate this and they have a landing hit too anyway.

I'll mess with it if I can think of something to try it with I guess.

Huh, I guess I couldn't tell if I was performing it correctly or not. Lol

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Another theory. Contrasting past games, a fastfall is now canceled when starting an aerial. Some relation to re-starting (or starting for the first time) a fastfall during the move, which the game might think is impossible and thus treats the landing lag differently?

You can begin fastfalls during aerials normally though... I don't see why the game would experience a problem with this. Otherwise FFAerials would be a thing of the past.

 

[Raijinken]

You can begin fastfalls during aerials normally though... I don't see why the game would experience a problem with this. Otherwise FFAerials would be a thing of the past.

Good point. Just throwing thoughts out to see where they go.

 

[Lavani]

I should probably clarify the process, because Izaw's instructions make it sound more complicated than it is.

All you do is fastfall the aerial and try to connect with it at the same time you land. No inputs or anything during the hitlag.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ Shaya : Ganondorf's jab lacks a hitlag modifier as well, though it also has electric attribute

...but maybe the CDRT is a better place for this

 

[Ulevo]

So, question. Can you do a fast fall aerial, and land the first active frame just as you land, in order to make this happen? Or do you need to hit with the first active frame before landing, then fast fall within that frame? I'm trying to replicate it and having difficulty doing so, but I'm assuming its because I'm not understanding it properly.

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[Ffamran]

I should probably clarify the process, because Izaw's instructions make it sound more complicated than it is.

All you do is fastfall the aerial and try to connect with it at the same time you land. No inputs or anything during the hitlag.

Well that clarifies something, since I was about to watch Izaw's video to try it out. Thanks, Lavani... Well... time to learn the timing...

 

[Linkshot]

Don't have a capture device, but I think it's possible to manage frame-cancelled uAir -> tipper uSmash kill (Marth, testing against Pit)

 

[icraq]

just trying to make sure im right but essentially:

if grounded while in hitlag from performing an aerial subtract hitlag from landing lag?

so we basically get time served to get out of lag jail

do any other elements give bonus to hitlag besides electric?

 

[Lavani]

Don't have a capture device, but I think it's possible to manage frame-cancelled uAir -> tipper uSmash kill (Marth, testing against Pit)

That's actually doable without this lol

Tried frame cancelled ganon fair but it doesn't have enough hitstun to do things, same for WFT dair

My current life goal is to make knee>knee combo

EDIT: Since we're on the topic of Marth falling uair stuff you can also do uair>tipper fsmash to KO at mid 30%s, but that isn't really related to this thread.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

just trying to make sure im right but essentially:

if grounded while in hitlag from performing an aerial subtract hitlag from landing lag?

so we basically get time served to get out of lag jail

do any other elements give bonus to hitlag besides electric?

I haven't found any other attributes that give hitlag bonuses, but my search is ongoing (I know you thinkin bout that rosalina son, so am I ;_; )

 

[dragontamer]

My current life goal is to make knee>knee combo

Sounds disgusting. Good luck!

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Took a while to find an opponent that'd register the same combo vs not combo kind of metric, but using Kirby I found out that this works with Zero Suit's N-air. Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phCiBL8NynE

I mess up a few times... but you know, I just wanted to make sure it didn't combo normally... yeah.... that's right. Anyways, I don't know if it unlocks significant combos for her, but I'm thinking low percent N-air to dsmash? We'll see!

 

[icraq]

I haven't found any other attributes that give hitlag bonuses, but my search is ongoing (I know you thinkin bout that rosalina son, so am I ;_; )

i've been revealed! ha ha. i don't see a whole lot of potential for rosa yet, looks like late uair has high hitlag so it might be possible to combo into a second uair if you're near the ground. i've been using late Fairs w/ rosa for a while and haven't noticed her landing lag being reduced, but maybe it's still a couple frames. i feel like i've benefited from using late bairs though, but maybe that's because of it's quick start up time and low landing lag, so the landing lag isn't completely negated but maybe it is somewhat

 

[Ffamran]

Geez, the timing is strict. I want to hit Luigi's foot, not his head, damn it!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

i've been revealed! ha ha. i don't see a whole lot of potential for rosa yet, looks like late uair has high hitlag so it might be possible to combo into a second uair if you're near the ground. i've been using late Fairs w/ rosa for a while and haven't noticed her landing lag being reduced, but maybe it's still a couple frames. i feel like i've benefited from using late bairs though, but maybe that's because of it's quick start up time and low landing lag, so the landing lag isn't completely negated but maybe it is somewhat

Yeah UAir and DAir were my first thoughts too but it seems like it would be situational at best with UAir. DAir on the other hand

FAir could really benefit from this. I think her aerial game in general would really benefit since it would let you really mix up her "lunar landing" (still a bad name imo) funsies

 

[Empyrean]

That's a 43% 2-hit combo.
Let that sink in for a moment.

 

[Ffamran]

On Falco's Dair:
I don't know if this was pointed out or if this is just a Luigi thing because of Luigi's poor traction, but I think you can hit confirm (with Luigi) if he trips. If Luigi doesn't trip, then you didn't do it right and it'll be like a normal hit and you can't true combo, but if Luigi trips, then you did it right, it's a frame cancel, and you can true combo out of it. So, listen for that "bong" sound that means someone tripped for a hit confirm.

That or I'm doing something entirely different and/or being stupid.

Edit: If this is really a Luigi thing, then we might have found our frame cancel test/practice dummy.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I'm crying, this is beautiful.
Can anyone test on any of links aerials (please down air please)

 

[Indigo Jeans]

On Falco's Dair:
I don't know if this was pointed out or if this is just a Luigi thing because of Luigi's poor traction, but I think you can hit confirm (with Luigi) if he trips. If Luigi doesn't trip, then you didn't do it right and it'll be like a normal hit and you can't true combo, but if Luigi trips, then you did it right, it's a frame cancel, and you can true combo out of it. So, listen for that "bong" sound that means someone tripped for a hit confirm.

That or I'm doing something entirely different and/or being stupid.

Edit: If this is really a Luigi thing, then we might have found our frame cancel test/practice dummy.

I think the tripping might be unrelated. All moves have a chance to trip (even without a trip rate modifier), especially 361 degree hits. DAir's late hit has a base angle of 361 degrees so it might be that.

 

[Swoops]

Guys...

Zelda fair/bair guys...

 

[Ffamran]

I think the tripping might be unrelated. All moves have a chance to trip (even without a trip rate modifier), especially 361 degree hits. DAir's late hit has a base angle of 361 degrees so it might be that.

Yeah... Weird since I am landing the "first" hit that does 13%... Stupid Random character picker...

 

[HeroMystic]

Wonder if this works with Mario/Doc's F-air...

If it does, it'd open up so many set-ups for them.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm crying, this is beautiful.
Can anyone test on any of links aerials (please down air please)

uAir seems to work. Not entirely sure about dAir yet. fAir might work too

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Looks like you guys worked this out. I was going to say that I think the total number of landing frames 'cancelled' is equal to the number of "freeze" frames caused by the attack (aka no lag is cancelled, you just conveniently count off a bunch of the landing lag frames during freeze frames where no one can move anyway)
After reading this though, I guess it's not frame perfect, so if you land late you don't get the entirety of the freeze frame total off your landing lag. But performed optimally, it would cancel the total number of freeze frames (or one less, maybe, not sure if this lands at the same time or on the first frame after)

 

[Ffamran]

I should probably clarify the process, because Izaw's instructions make it sound more complicated than it is.

All you do is fastfall the aerial and try to connect with it at the same time you land. No inputs or anything during the hitlag.

To clarify this even more, double tap it.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel kind of dumb now after figuring it out. So, if you're struggling like me for some reason:

So, perform the aerial, let the stick reset/return it to the center/let it become neutral, fast-fall, and profit.

Even more detailed is this: Example: Dair > reset analog stick/circle pad after inputting Dair > fast-fall during DairDair.

I feel like a slow child, y'know what I mean?

For those of you who played Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, it's like jump-canceling except replace the jump with fast-fall. There you go. Just a series of fast inputs and you have an effective way to elimimate frames and a new combo starter.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

A few questions/assumptions that need to be proven:
Is it the hit lag difference or is it any hit lag being neglected (even 1.0 modifiers), what happens on moves with less hit lag? (divide by zero)
Falcon's knee with some 10 odd base hit lag going to 15, is he getting 5 frames less lag than he normally would, or is it 15? 10? what?

And does the move have to hit on the same frame it comes out, or is the only condition landing a frame after you hit an opponent.

I think it's any move with freeze frames (think sweetspot moves) and the amount of lag cancelled is equal to the number of freeze frames the attack causes. I would assume that a move with less landing lag frames than freeze frames would be free to move after the end of the freeze frames, essentially zero landing lag frames when compared to when you don't use this tech. Unless for some reason landing frees you from being frozen in hit lag, in which case you would actually be able to act X frames before the freeze frames end, (X=Freeze frames minus landing lag frames) which would be pretty crazy (but again this would require aoce with fewer landing frames than freeze frames)

 

[Lavani]

Sounds disgusting. Good luck!

I can now die happy.

Guys...

Zelda fair/bair guys...

bair>farore was the very first thought I had when I saw this thread, but Zelda's so floaty it makes it annoyingly hard to frame cancel with her :<

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

"Smash stun" (hitlag?) and landing lag are two different and independent things though. Even if you were to land while bypassing the hitlag, you should in theory still experience the normal landing lag

I think what everyone's trying to say is you aren't bypassing/canceling any lag, you're just experiencing your landing lag DURING your hit lag, which results in a shorter time that ignores inputs