Frame Cancel Combos

[Gawain]

Greetings gentlemen. I've been playing around with the whole frame cancel thing that's all the hubub these days and I'd like to share my ideas and bounce off some of yours. Check it out and let me know what you guys have found. I'll be updating my guide to feature this in depth as well.

EDIT: Guide updated. Check it out, let me know if it's a sufficient explanation on how to do this. It's hard to explain or even show without being in person.

 

[jojr123]

I am a little lost with what this tech actually does. What I see is that the same ending lag is happening, but the actual attack hits later to make the ending lag seem shorter. Is this correct, or am I just a potato noob?

 

[Gawain]

I am a little lost with what this tech actually does. What I see is that the same ending lag is happening, but the actual attack hits later to make the ending lag seem shorter. Is this correct, or am I just a potato noob?

You're not wrong, actually. What is happening is that you're skipping the part where YOU, the attacker, are also stuck in hitlag because you trigger your landing animation at the same time as the hitlag, and the landing lag takes precedence, essentially skipping the portion where you would be stuck in the air. Notice how when you normally hit someone with the knee, Falcon is frozen in the air with them for the split second during hitlag? All we're doing here is getting us to land quicker. With moves with big hitlag like the Knee, it saves you a huge amount of time, allowing for all kinds of neat followups that you otherwise couldn't do.

 

[Trifroze]

Looks good, people who get the timing down will be able to perform some neat punishes with things like these. However, 1 frame timings are a little bit unreliable to get consistent at in more dynamic situations, 2-3 would be great.

 

[Hubbles]

You're not wrong, actually. What is happening is that you're skipping the part where YOU, the attacker, are also stuck in hitlag because you trigger your landing animation at the same time as the hitlag, and the landing lag takes precedence, essentially skipping the portion where you would be stuck in the air. Notice how when you normally hit someone with the knee, Falcon is frozen in the air with them for the split second during hitlag? All we're doing here is getting us to land quicker. With moves with big hitlag like the Knee, it saves you a huge amount of time, allowing for all kinds of neat followups that you otherwise couldn't do.

B-But that's the best part of the knee! ;_;

Hearing that BZZZZZZZ,seeing Captain and his enemy frozen in mid-air before the other one gets blown to oblivion...

 

[Hoejja]

isn't it the reason why falling uair performed right above the stage will lead to combos more easily ?

 

[Gawain]

isn't it the reason why falling uair performed right above the stage will lead to combos more easily ?

That's actually just because uair has ridiculOusly low landing lag. I think it's something like second lowest in the game, or tied for first. It's 8 frames i think.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Dair is the most noticeable for the hitlag cancel. Unfortunately, Dair is insanely unsafe in this game, so if you get shielded, you're going to get grabbed regardless if you timed the Dair correctly or not. Knee cancels a bit faster as well, but it doesn't put you back in neutral as quickly as the Dair.

And of course, Uair and Bair don't need it at all because they cancel almost immediately upon landing anyway.

isn't it the reason why falling uair performed right above the stage will lead to combos more easily ?

It also depends on the percentage and what portion of the Uair you hit with. After 45%, you can do true combos from a fastfall Uair. Either combo into itself; directly into knee or both.

 

[Gawain]

Dair is the most noticeable for the hitlag cancel. Unfortunately, Dair is insanely unsafe in this game, so if you get shielded, you're going to get grabbed regardless if you timed the Dair correctly or not. Knee cancels a bit faster as well, but it doesn't put you back in neutral as quickly as the Dair.

And of course, Uair and Bair don't need it at all because they cancel almost immediately upon landing anyway.



It also depends on the percentage and what portion of the Uair you hit with. After 45%, you can do true combos from a fastfall Uair. Either combo into itself; directly into knee or both.

Well i never use dair except for when reading rolls or when I'm just messing around To be honest. If you read a roll it's worth it though. If you don't cancel it though then it's actually unsafe on a standing tech (which is hilarious btw).

I've also noticed that kneeing someone s shield when they're somewhat close to the ledge is actually safe since it pushes them over the ledge.

 

[BigLord]

I wish I could do this, the timing is insanely hard to do, lol. It's like trying to knee the ankles of your opponent.

Does anyone know if it works on the 3DS version, by the way?

 

[Gawain]

I wish I could do this, the timing is insanely hard to do, lol. It's like trying to knee the ankles of your opponent.

Does anyone know if it works on the 3DS version, by the way?

I'm sure it works in theory but wow that would be hard. I mean if you do short hop and then knee and fast fall immediately at the apex you can do it pretty consistently. It's hard but not impossible

 

[BigLord]

Thanks @ Gawain , got the theory down. Have to practice now. Wish me luck.

(not doing it on the 3DS though, I'm not masochistic ffs x_x)

 

[Desu~]

Dair is the most noticeable for the hitlag cancel. Unfortunately, Dair is insanely unsafe in this game, so if you get shielded, you're going to get grabbed regardless if you timed the Dair correctly or not. Knee cancels a bit faster as well, but it doesn't put you back in neutral as quickly as the Dair.

This and the fact that the hitlag cancel doesn't work as long as your opponent shields it.

 

[CookingMama]

the timing really isn't that bad on this. I've done it a ton by accident and never realized the frame differences so never tried to go for grabs out of it. thanks for the video! I've been finding it harder to get it on the diar than on the knee though.

 

[Jebus244]

the timing really isn't that bad on this. I've done it a ton by accident and never realized the frame differences so never tried to go for grabs out of it. thanks for the video! I've been finding it harder to get it on the diar than on the knee though.

If you fastfall the Dair, it's about 3/4 the distance from the jump to the apex. use the C-stick.

 

[Lavani]

Does anyone know if it works on the 3DS version, by the way?

It does. All the gifs I was posting in the thread where this discovery was being explored were on 3DS.

Also, slight clarification on the mechanics: Neither hitlag nor landing lag is being cancelled, you're just experiencing both types of lag side-by-side. Attacks with more hitlag than landing lag still result in you not being able to act until the hitlag ends too.

This and the fact that the hitlag cancel doesn't work as long as your opponent shields it.

Was this ever confirmed? I remember pages of bickering and nobody confirming or debunking it.

 

[Gawain]

It does. All the gifs I was posting in the thread where this discovery was being explored were on 3DS.

Also, slight clarification on the mechanics: Neither hitlag nor landing lag is being cancelled, you're just experiencing both types of lag side-by-side. Attacks with more hitlag than landing lag still result in you not being able to act until the hitlag ends too.


Was this ever confirmed? I remember pages of bickering and nobody confirming or debunking it.

Well i would post my findings in that thread if the mods of that board weren't totalitarian dictators that kicked me out for an extremely minor offense bit that is neither here nor there. I'm 90%sure that this works on shield too. I'm gonna test it vs shield tonight to be certain.

 

[CookingMama]

If you fastfall the Dair, it's about 3/4 the distance from the jump to the apex. use the C-stick.

word, I'll have to work on that timing. i've got that gamepad though until my gcn port comes in. I never use the gamepad stick because it's it's a little awkward for me.

 

[Desu~]

Was this ever confirmed? I remember pages of bickering and nobody confirming or debunking it.

Izaw stated himself that if you attempt to hitlag cancel a move while the opponent is shielding, it will never work.

 

[Lavani]

Izaw stated himself that if you attempt to hitlag cancel a move while the opponent is shielding, it will never work.

He said it in the video, but the video is inaccurate about several things and nobody actually confirmed whether or not it works.

 

[Desu~]

Well, if it helps for the moment, I did make a couple of test with this tech.
While it worked with an unguarded opponent, doing the exact same thing on shield has proved to have no result of the hitlag cancel.

Im not quite sure if this is the case, but perhaps due to the hitbox staying longer on the shield, it can actually mess up the timing? Is it possible to cancel the lag on a shielding opponent by doing it later than usual?

Well, im unable to do it any lower than what I can do at the moment, but perhaps better players could be able to pull it off? But if that were to be the case, it would only show that canceling the lag on shield would be too demanding to time at this point.

 

[Captain Farukon]

that´s one of the most discouraging things about Captain Falcon, you need to practice a lot and i mean A LOT...it consumes a frigging lot of time to master him unlike other characters....

 

[Hubbles]

Having massive problems pulling this off consistently and when I do, I often fail to follow up. It's really frickin' hard imo.

 

[Zabuu]

Not sure if this is already known, but I was practising the frame cancelled knee vs Metaknight and found that at 0-23% dmg frame cancelled knee -> dash attack is a true combo, when performed right. You'll have to angle your descent such as that your half standing in his body when you land and input dash very quicky after landing (or buffer it).

0-27% so far vs Mario; vs him I feel you have to be standing more than half in his body once you land the knee. I feel that that's something which will make the true combo easier to land on MK and any other character as well.

0-30% on Diddy so far.

I must say that i'm not 100% certain about the upper limits on these percentages as it seems the further you stand in the opponents body when you land the easier it is to true combo (and be able to do it at a higher %), so you might even be able to get a true combo above the mentioned percentages.

 

[Hubbles]

Not sure if this is already known, but I was practising the frame cancelled knee vs Metaknight and found that at 0-23% dmg frame cancelled knee -> dash attack is a true combo, when performed right. You'll have to angle your descent such as that your half standing in his body when you land and input dash very quicky after landing (or buffer it).

0-27% so far vs Mario; vs him I feel you have to be standing more than half in his body once you land the knee. I feel that that's something which will make the true combo easier to land on MK and any other character as well.

0-30% on Diddy so far.

I must say that i'm not 100% certain about the upper limits on these percentages as it seems the further you stand in the opponents body when you land the easier it is to true combo (and be able to do it at a higher %), so you might even be able to get a true combo above the mentioned percentages.

Wow, just tested that. Great find! Definitely works on MK.

 

[Zabuu]

Man... you can even follow it up with an Uair for a 3 hit true combo if you time it correctly. Works on sheik at 0% at least.

[edit] got it working vs sheik 0-15%, can't seem to do it on 16%, I'll try again tomorrow

 

[Levateinn]

yea, ive been having a ton of fun cancling the stomp into knee. when canceled you are basically gaining a 20% margin of viability for a true combo.

side note i haven't seen this written but falcon can F-throw into a D-air jab reset and allows for an easy punish(if they miss their tech). I wouldn't waste a fresh knee on it but Fsmash works well.

 

[Gawain]

yea, ive been having a ton of fun cancling the stomp into knee. when canceled you are basically gaining a 20% margin of viability for a true combo.

side note i haven't seen this written but falcon can F-throw into a D-air jab reset and allows for an easy punish(if they miss their tech). I wouldn't waste a fresh knee on it but Fsmash works well.

Yeah the cancel with the stomp increases your viable percentage range for stomp to knee by a tremendous margin. Lowest I've gotten it on is like 52 percent on Diddy Kong.