Fox Update (and what Fox could use to make him better)

[Foxus]

So awhile back, I talked in a thread about how Fox is the most difficult character, and most likely for good reason, but that aside, a couple updates. I deleted my replays off of YouTube, mainly because I was getting incredibly spiteful comments on my performance on there, but I am still trying to get a hold of this furry mess.

It leads me to thinking, what could Fox use that would make him less-vulnerable? Make him a bit heavier, try to get a balance of both weight and speed (similar to what Wolf possessed in Brawl), because it still seems to me like Fox is generally a sitting duck. When you're pro, you probably have no problem, but for everyone else, its like, "How do you actually get Fox to fight well, and what upgrades could he use (other than his voice) to make him better, and not just more speedy, like Sonic?"

I still can't get my head around watching better Fox players, I don't know why.. No, this isn't a repeat of the last thread.

Fox in distress....maybe.

 

[Foxus]

Wow no responses.

I'm not just posting just to burn time, or make my post number go up guys. Sheesh/

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

1/10 too much troll for my taste.

 

[Justinian]

Foxus. Buddy. I'm not trying to be rude, but in those other threads, we all (the Fox boards) tried to help you as much as we could, and you either claimed that our advice didn't work, or you just didn't take it at all, and claimed either that our suggestions didn't fit you as a player, or that Fox was a mediocre character. If people tell you to do Fox stuff, but Fox stuff doesn't fit your style, why are you playing Fox?

Yes, he's a hard character to learn, but he has almost boundless potential. He doesn't need any buffs; he's already solidly top 10 in the game, it's just that a person needs loads of game and matchup knowledge to play him at even a decent level. Fox isn't a character that can be effectively played on autopilot, nor is he a character that can be learned vicariously through other players, both things you were trying to do. If you want to step your Smash game up (and this goes double for Fox and other technical characters), you have to put in the time, hit the lab, and practice for yourself. No one can help you more than you help yourself.

 

[Foxus]

1/10 too much troll for my taste.

See, that's the thing. I'm not trolling, I don't know why this thread would give off that impression.

 

[Foxus]

Foxus. Buddy. I'm not trying to be rude, but in those other threads, we all (the Fox boards) tried to help you as much as we could, and you either claimed that our advice didn't work, or you just didn't take it at all, and claimed either that our suggestions didn't fit you as a player, or that Fox was a mediocre character. If people tell you to do Fox stuff, but Fox stuff doesn't fit your style, why are you playing Fox?

Yes, he's a hard character to learn, but he has almost boundless potential. He doesn't need any buffs; he's already solidly top 10 in the game, it's just that a person needs loads of game and matchup knowledge to play him at even a decent level. Fox isn't a character that can be effectively played on autopilot, nor is he a character that can be learned vicariously through other players, both things you were trying to do. If you want to step your Smash game up (and this goes double for Fox and other technical characters), you have to put in the time, hit the lab, and practice for yourself. No one can help you more than you help yourself.

Alright, I'll state this for the record.

How I work/learn is through trial and error, maybe I didn't make that clear in the previous thread. I also want to state this for the record, that I was not trying to shift blame on anyone else. I turned to Fox because Yoshi was not fast enough, had a poor recovery, and lagged in some of his moves (the end lag in his ground pound). I figured Fox could be more effective because he was more speedy, and his recovery trumps Yoshi's, not as good as Pacman's or Villager's, but close, certainly better than Little Mac's.

Maybe I should try Pikachu or Sonic, idk. But Fox is my favorite Nintendo character out of all the franchises (and that's probably why I can barely stand witnessing better Fox players). Maybe I'm a bit skeptical of Fox's rise in the tier list, that's just my personal position. I have high expectations in general. To be fair, maybe Fox should wait until I get better at Smash in general, because its obvious a technical character like Fox is reserved for more seasoned veterans. Maybe I should go with Pikachu or some other character that doesn't require immediate tech skill, get good at that character, increase the win rate, and call the shots from there.

That said, I will always have a place in my heart for Fox, just like anyone would with Mario or Zelda, but if character switching is required to get better, that's probably where I need to be. If you can tell me what the non-technical characters are to choose from, that would be great.

 

[Elyan]

Non technical? Ness, Yoshi as you stated, Mario
*salty man spotted*

 

[Foxus]

Non technical? Ness, Yoshi as you stated, Mario
*salty man spotted*

Please refrain from using derogatory terms like "salty." Don't set such a low bar in your response.

For the life of me though, I can't get Fox to win me a single match. What is that cardinal rule, that gold that makes Fox highly coveted among tourney-goers? It's not just practice, that's a empty answer. I'm sure I'm making it harder than it has to be, but it drives me insane not to know what people do to make Fox work for them.

 

[Foxus]

Please refrain from using derogatory terms like "salty." Don't set such a low bar in your response.

For the life of me though, I can't get Fox to win me a single match. What is that cardinal rule, that gold that makes Fox highly coveted among tourney-goers? It's not just practice, that's a empty answer. I'm sure I'm making it harder than it has to be, but it drives me insane not to know what people do to make Fox work for them.

As you can tell, I take my gaming seriously.

 

[Elyan]

I think you misunderstood, I was talking about myself ^^'
But you're alright, it was unnecessary .

From what I can see on the Foxboards, you pretty much ask the same question but in different ways in like 2 to 3 threads, so I hope you got your answers ^.^

 

[DKGrayson]

I put a more in depth response in the other thread that you just made.

Justinian pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Foxus. Buddy. I'm not trying to be rude, but in those other threads, we all (the Fox boards) tried to help you as much as we could, and you either claimed that our advice didn't work, or you just didn't take it at all, and claimed either that our suggestions didn't fit you as a player, or that Fox was a mediocre character. If people tell you to do Fox stuff, but Fox stuff doesn't fit your style, why are you playing Fox?

Yes, he's a hard character to learn, but he has almost boundless potential. He doesn't need any buffs; he's already solidly top 10 in the game, it's just that a person needs loads of game and matchup knowledge to play him at even a decent level. Fox isn't a character that can be effectively played on autopilot, nor is he a character that can be learned vicariously through other players, both things you were trying to do. If you want to step your Smash game up (and this goes double for Fox and other technical characters), you have to put in the time, hit the lab, and practice for yourself. No one can help you more than you help yourself.

 

[Leoinu]

For the life of me though, I can't get Fox to win me a single match. What is that cardinal rule, that gold that makes Fox highly coveted among tourney-goers? It's not just practice, that's a empty answer. I'm sure I'm making it harder than it has to be, but it drives me insane not to know what people do to make Fox work for them.

Its not just practice? Do you listen to yourself? Practice is a huge part of everything. So no. Its not an empty answer. A ton of the stuff fox is known for, high level players will tell you its muscle memory. Which makes it sound easy. Where do you think muscle memory comes from? PRACTICE.

Hell I'm still working on short hop up airs for true combos and I'm still JCUS'ing. BETTER PRACTICE MORE

 

[Foxus]

Its not just practice? Do you listen to yourself? Practice is a huge part of everything. So no. Its not an empty answer. A ton of the stuff fox is known for, high level players will tell you its muscle memory. Which makes it sound easy. Where do you think muscle memory comes from? PRACTICE.

Hell I'm still working on short hop up airs for true combos and I'm still JCUS'ing. BETTER PRACTICE MORE

The first time I heard the term, "Muscle Memory" was in getting my leg on a drum kit to act as a separate entity, simultaneously.

I practice on a daily basis when I can, and I lose to peeps in For Fun (what a misnomer) if that tells you anything.

 

[Leoinu]

The first time I heard the term, "Muscle Memory" was in getting my leg on a drum kit to act as a separate entity, simultaneously.

I practice on a daily basis when I can, and I lose to peeps in For Fun (what a misnomer) if that tells you anything.

No, it doesn't. From your post history, despite your blind stubbornness to Fox's potential, a majority of your play is in For Fun. If you care about winning. Literally everyone is going to assume you're talking from a competitive standard. Which is mostly 1v1. So knock off mentioning anything about For Fun. Because no one cares for it, and you will not learn anything from it. Its that simple. Its For Fun. Dont take it seriously.

And yes, muscle memory is a thing, tons of tech in the entire franchise comes down to muscle memory when you do it so much. You play your character more and get into a deeper understanding, everything they do becomes muscle memory.

Also just because you play on a daily basis, that doesn't mean you practice. Theres a term called Auto Piloting in fighting games. It means you're playing solely off instinct without thinking in depth on what your next move is, or what you're opponent is doing, has done, and might do next. Your actions become reflexive, and therefor predictable. Unless your conscious of every action you're making, and making an effort to perfect said actions, and thinking on your toes on how to counter play your opponent. No, you're not practicing, you're on auto pilot.

 

[DKGrayson]

The other thread in which I put a more concise answer went ignored.

In the nicest possible way, I'm not sure that Foxus isn't a troll.

 

[Foxus]

No, it doesn't. From your post history, despite your blind stubbornness to Fox's potential, a majority of your play is in For Fun. If you care about winning. Literally everyone is going to assume you're talking from a competitive standard. Which is mostly 1v1. So knock off mentioning anything about For Fun. Because no one cares for it, and you will not learn anything from it. Its that simple. Its For Fun. Dont take it seriously.

And yes, muscle memory is a thing, tons of tech in the entire franchise comes down to muscle memory when you do it so much. You play your character more and get into a deeper understanding, everything they do becomes muscle memory.

Also just because you play on a daily basis, that doesn't mean you practice. Theres a term called Auto Piloting in fighting games. It means you're playing solely off instinct without thinking in depth on what your next move is, or what you're opponent is doing, has done, and might do next. Your actions become reflexive, and therefor predictable. Unless your conscious of every action you're making, and making an effort to perfect said actions, and thinking on your toes on how to counter play your opponent. No, you're not practicing, you're on auto pilot.

There's a great word when people talking about "conditioning" or "reading" your opponent that comes to mind, and that is the word, "telepathy." The definition of telepathy is "the supposed communication of thoughts or ideas by means other than the known senses." And that is what peeps in the Smash scene are talking about, just in different, more simplistic terms. The act of being telepathic seems to be what all great competitive players possess. Some people of capable of it, some aren't, but that's ultimately what peeps are referring to by "reading" or "conditioning" your opponent.

You can't smell your opponent, you can't taste your opponent, you can't see your opponent online, so none of the senses you use in Smash are of the "known" senses. I naturally lack the ability to exercise telepathy, and maybe that is what is keeping me from using Fox effectively. Maybe, just maybe, by some instance, you are good at being telepathic in this game, and that is why you are able to use Fox effectively. Same goes for Zero, or any tourney winner on a national scale. People might be exercising a telepathic power without even realizing it.

If telepathy is a required element to playing the game effectively, then I don't have it. Because for the life of me, I can't pick up on a opponents pattern. And usually after 1 or 2 matches, I'll leave before they can pick up on mine. Muscle memory is a motor skill that can be picked up, telepathy is often something that one is born with. So what you were getting at in your post was a fighter has two options: be on auto pilot or be telepathic.
"Unless your conscious of every action you're making, and making an effort to perfect said actions, and thinking on your toes on how to counter play your opponent." Yeah, that is communicating through other than the known senses, that is an act of telepathy.

DKGrayson , I saw your post. It wasn't ignored.

 

[Leoinu]

Telepathy. You can't be real. There's no way you're serious. So I guess all smash players are ****ing super powered. And yes, you can SEE your opponent, hello? The screen? Are you looking at that? Are you watching your opponents character? A read is literally knowing what your opponent is going to do. Want to know how to do that? Don't play on auto pilot, watch them, study them, LEARN. THEIR. HABITS. Thats how you read them, you figure out a pattern they do and exploit it. Its not some crazy super power you've somehow come to believe in, its learning how to observe a situation and adapt.

You're either insane, or you're a troll. Both of horrible outcomes.

 

[M@v]

This is just turning into a flame war at this point.