Fox Shield Pressure

[ruhtraeel]

Just watched Zhu vs Colbol, and Colbol did a shine-full hop-FF u-air shield pressure. Does that actually work well? Would SH SHFFL u-air work? how about SH/FH d-air?

This is probably old, but I've never played Fox long enough to find out. I just play Falco and G&W/Falcon, and play Fox to spam tech skill.

 

[Strong Badam]

it'll work if the player you're playing against lets it happen.

 

[ruhtraeel]

it'll work if the player you're playing against lets it happen.

That goes for every attack

Are any of those nearly as reliable as Falco's pressure

 

[Strong Badam]

shine full hop fast fall upair doesn't work. my previous post explains why it did.
no, it's not reliable. do things differently each time or your opponent will be able to figure out your pattern.

 

[ruhtraeel]

shine full hop fast fall upair doesn't work. my previous post explains why it did.
no, it's not reliable. do things differently each time or your opponent will be able to figure out your pattern.

How about SHFFL u-air or d-air

 

[Strong Badam]

doesn't work in theory

might work in practice via mix-ups

 

[dairspike]

As long as you do it late enough on their shield properly, it's tricky to punish. I would stick to the other aerials for shield pressure.

Why don't Foxes shine grab much more often? Is there some vulnerability I'm unaware of?

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Why would you shine grab when you can just grab?

 

[ruhtraeel]

Why would you shine grab when you can just grab?

I guess cause you make the opponent wait in his shield for a chance to grab but you just grab him anyways

 

[PK Webb]

i shine grab all day so does pc its the future.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

And if they catch on to shine grab, you can always double shine->grab

Sometimes I wonder if multishine is good shield pressure

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Other than having to compensate for shield push, it's probably the only method that can lock people down in shield with every option being punished.

 

[Strong Badam]

if you shine grab and then try to shieldgrab before shine comes out or whatever you let them get away. it isn't a perfect option

 

[PK Webb]

I wouldn't shine grab everything. Mix it up in your sheild pressure.

 

[Sinji]

Why would you shine grab when you can just grab?

Considering that shine takes up one frame, you can easily grab out of shine before the opponent reacts oos.

 

[FoxLisk]

And if they catch on to shine grab, you can always double shine->grab

Sometimes I wonder if multishine is good shield pressure

okay first: dont you play puff? go give puffs bad advice

secodn: the ways to get out of shine grab are:
a) using insane oos moves (shine oos, samus' upb oos, maybe sheik's nair oos), which double shine might beat

b) rolling which doulbe shine wont ever beat (assuming they dont suck and buffer)

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

okay first: dont you play puff? go give puffs bad advice

secodn: the ways to get out of shine grab are:
a) using insane oos moves (shine oos, samus' upb oos, maybe sheik's nair oos), which double shine might beat

b) rolling which doulbe shine wont ever beat (assuming they dont suck and buffer)

that hurt my feelings

lool jk I meant it to be a question, I don't really main one character. If those insane oos moves are beating shine grab (I know a Samus that does upb oos after alot of aerial->shines) then double shine seems like a good choice

And for b) you can roll out of any kind of pressure, but against fox you'll prob be punished. While multishining, you just have to be ready to wd whether they roll or are hit with shine

But i don't see many good players using multishine other than Dark, who is flashy and occasionally SW. Maybe its just too hard to be consistent with it. Idk

 

[FoxLisk]

pretty sure you cant reactively wd out of a multishine if they roll.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Another shield pressure-related question:

Is Drill > Shine > SHFFL Drill > shine etc. legit? I never see top players do it, what I always see is them N-airing instead of D-airing during shield pressure.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

pretty sure you cant reactively wd out of a multishine if they roll.

It's definitely possible, but prob really tough unless you get it down really well. I sure as hell can't so Ill just agree with you on that one.

Another shield pressure-related question:

Is Drill > Shine > SHFFL Drill > shine etc. legit? I never see top players do it, what I always see is them N-airing instead of D-airing during shield pressure.

I get shield-grabbed out of drill shine on some one's shield around a third of the time. I get shield-grabbed out of nair shines probably less than a tenth of the time. I think the drill shine is harder to space exactly right to minimize the frame window for your opponent's grab. Plus the nair has a larger hitbox

 

[Wenbobular]

Nair has pretty small holes in it so it's pretty good
Drilling has even smaller holes because it's a multihit, but it actually doesn't have enough shield stun to guarantee drill -> shine won't get shield grabbed (it's like 1 frame too slow)

But most people aren't good enough to shield grab you if you're fast ... that's the main advantage Nair has going for it, you can do it late on shield and you won't get shield grabbed if you shine fast enough

 

[ruhtraeel]

pretty sure you cant reactively wd out of a multishine if they roll.

I think why most people don't multishine for shield pressure is because it's just too hard/inconsistent, and most people can't react WD out of a multishine to read someone.

I don't think even SilentWolf would risk it.

But if you are fast enough, you could theoretically do it, which is why I think if you are near frame-perfect then multishine is perhaps Fox's best shield pressure move.

I think Dark/Zant might be able to do it semi-consistently if they actually tried to play smart



My Fox is a messed up Fox that combines a bunch of random Fox stuff



Oh and in response to that fried ice cream guy, I think you would need to SH d-air OoShine (as in rising d-air) for that to work, if the drill lasts long enough that is.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I would just like to say that it seems to me like the key component of shield pressure other than being able to do the moves is in the FAST FALL. Alot of people get the sh correctly and pull the shine out quickly, and even jump immediately out of shine.... but you gotta make sure you get the fast fall in or there are bigger frame holes. Also if you ff the first nair, then don't ff the second nair, then it screws with your L cancel timing a bit.

I think why most people don't multishine for shield pressure is because it's just too hard/inconsistent, and most people can't react WD out of a multishine to read someone.

I don't think even SilentWolf would risk it.

But if you are fast enough, you could theoretically do it, which is why I think if you are near frame-perfect then multishine is perhaps Fox's best shield pressure move.

I think Dark/Zant might be able to do it semi-consistently if they actually tried to play smart



My Fox is a messed up Fox that combines a bunch of random Fox stuff



Oh and in response to that fried ice cream guy, I think you would need to SH d-air OoShine (as in rising d-air) for that to work, if the drill lasts long enough that is.

Dude I love that you believe in multishine <3 I really hope that it develops into next level sh*t. Im at least trying to incorporate it into my game (even though I don't main fox and he is lacking in other areas such as shine->turn around->bair)

btw I also love Dark and Zant <33 no homo

 

[KrazyKnux]

I always like shine nairs as shield pressure. I think it's the most consistent tactic with the fewest holes. Sometimes if I'm getting ambitious i'll mix up shine nairs with double shine nairs to throw them off even more. Every once in a while I'll attempt multiple JC shines but it's hard to decide what to do after them unless you just wanna break their shield.

If you're getting close to breaking someone's shield, I like shine upsmashes because it chunks away the shield a lot. Multishines are good too, but hard to be consistent with getting 5+ in a row.

Shine grab is good but can be beat, so there's certain situations which it should and shouldn't be used and alternate shield pressure should be sought.

Fox is too legit as far as shield pressure goes, I think he has the most options to get something going and potential to break a shield. Be creative, mix it up, and figure out the situations which calls for certain tactics.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You shouldn't be aiming to break a shield. Your primary goal is to land a good hit in whatever way you can; this means either by baiting a punishable action (usually roll or sidestep but others exist too) or by doing something unexpected yet amazing (usually grab).

 

[RaynEX]

You shouldn't be aiming to break a shield. Your primary goal is to land a good hit in whatever way you can; this means either by baiting a punishable action (usually roll or sidestep but others exist too) or by doing something unexpected yet amazing (usually grab).

My thoughts exactly. The aim is not to blow up their shield with obscene amounts of tech skill, as cool as that may look. You should be looking for your opponent's responses to your shield pressure, then effectively countering them. Doing nair shine x5 is great, but if your opponent is chillin' in his shield why not just cut it short and grab him? IMO, that's successful shield pressure. If you see them getting antsy on defense chances are you won't need to shine grab, and one of your nair/dair shines will hit for a combo opportunity. Being able to adapt to your opponents choices during shield pressure help you in all of your match-ups.

Nair shine dair shine: Mostly used when looking to interrupt an impatient opponent after the first shine. Dair can't be CCed, and yields a more consistent follow-up opportunity. If you think your opponent will try to stop your pressure after nair->shine, JC the shine into a dair and either go for a thunders, waveshine, or drill grab to keep the offense going. It's active hitbox is great for just ticking away at a shield as well, so if its blocked you still have a few good options at your disposal.

 

[Winston]

I think why most people don't multishine for shield pressure is because it's just too hard/inconsistent, and most people can't react WD out of a multishine to read someone.

I don't think even SilentWolf would risk it.

But if you are fast enough, you could theoretically do it, which is why I think if you are near frame-perfect then multishine is perhaps Fox's best shield pressure move.

I think Dark/Zant might be able to do it semi-consistently if they actually tried to play smart

There's no way anybody could reactively hitconfirm the shine when multishining a shield, making it good, but not amazingly better than regular options. Unless it's right by the edge

 

[ChivalRuse]

Let's just stick with the realm of possibility, please and thank you.

 

[ruhtraeel]

jab-jab-shine-JC grab

jab-jab-shine-JC usmash loool

 

[Wenbobular]

Jab is like the most illegitimate shield pressure ever, leave that to bad characters like Samus or something

 

[ChivalRuse]

Samus spamming jab cancels on the back of your shield is cheap.

 

[leffen]

Cheap and absolutely terrible.

 

[ruhtraeel]

So I realized pressing L about a quarter of a second earlier boosts my attack-off-platform tech skill by 200%

:-D

My Falco is suffering from all the Fox practice

 

[Rush]

So I realized pressing L about a quarter of a second earlier boosts my attack-off-platform tech skill by 200%

:-D

My Falco is suffering from all the Fox practice

Yes playing Fox is pretty great.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is a really diverse character. One of his best traits is probably that his speed and flexible moveset gives him more options than most characters in combat situations. His shield pressure is a good example of this.

I'm also unsure why my shield pressure frame data thread isn't stickied or at least edited into the obscure guides sticky, since it covers a lot of pressure circuits that aren't in the currently linked one.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Yes playing Fox is pretty great.

Lol I still consider you a Sheik player

BTW you coming to VGC tonight



Can you link me kaze

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I really wanna see that frame data!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just search threads started by KirbyKaze in the Fox board and it'll pop up lol. It says "Fox Shield Pressure Frame Data" as the title or something like that so it's really obvious which thread it is.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Just search threads started by KirbyKaze in the Fox board and it'll pop up lol. It says "Fox Shield Pressure Frame Data" as the title or something like that so it's really obvious which thread it is.

Gotcha. thanks.. I learned about how different the frame gaps are with early vs late nairs.

Also for the nair, you say "all hitlag occurs here" so does the hitlag occur for all frames of the nair or just the first frame? And why do you say stun 1-7 when there are 8 stun frames for nair?