Fox Match-Ups

[pyrofox13]

Yeah it's another match-up thread i know. But since it's fox who cares?
Any ways in this thread we'll discuss tips and things like that for fox against the chosen character.

 

[pyrofox13]

Let's start with one o the newer characters, Zero Suit Samus, feel free to abrevate that as ZSS.

My best choice of approach is N-air shine. This owns ZSS at low percents. I also feel that if you waveshine her at low percents and your opponent doesn't tech you can up smash them just to keep the combo going and follow up. I suggest following up with a u-air, b-air, or n-air. But regardless comboing with the shine is always a good thing against ZSS. Approach wise N-air shine but at higher percents i'd go with d-air shine or just a n-air.

Stages i try to go to r:
Norfair
Kongo Jungle
Yoshi's Story(melee)
Pokemon Stadium 2
i think these r the best becuase the first three have low ceilings for fox's u-air or have areas that u can get close to the ceiling. I think Pokemon Stadium because i feel this stage is good for fox.

To knock off stocks just stick to vertical KOs and shine spiking. Fox has great vertical KOing power and shine spike is the defintion of ownage so yeah

 

[ELI-mination]

Lol a Fox matchup thread exists.

 

[\Apples]

Lol a Fox matchup thread exists.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[DMG]

Fox MU spread: Winning

 

[Oracle]

In this matchup, do fox things until they lose.

Copy paste for each character and you have your thread

 

[DMG]

Nair to Shine is a great option vs ZSS...

OH WAIT THAT'S FOX VS EVERY CHARACTER! Nair won't work because they CC? Mix it up and use Dair. GG

 

[himemiya]

Does anyone want exploit his weakness and his worse matchups? So I'll know who to use and what to do and for stages I know to go for the high ceiling stages (ex: dreamland) right?

 

[jalued]

My best choice of approach is N-air shine. This owns ZSS at low percents. I also feel that if you waveshine her at low percents and your opponent doesn't tech you can up smash them just to keep the combo going and follow up. I suggest following up with a u-air, b-air, or n-air.

You do realize that for fox this is the worst case scenario? He cannot waveshine her without activating the tumble animation. If you do a jab instead of an upsmash you can then followup with an upair (aka thundercombo)

I havn't played much ZSS vs fox, but from the games i've been playing it seems that ZSS has alot more trouble against smaller character's than fat ones, which automatically makes me think it'll be a fox favored matchup. Maybe only slightly though, she has an incredible recovery (once you work out to not bug) and her fsmash will kill fox at very low percentages

I don't think any of the new character's will be fox counters. Diddy is a potentially even.

In terms of counters, have any of you considered DK? In melee he had reliable 0-death combos and in PM DK is faster, heavier, more aggressive and much stronger

 

[ELI-mination]

As one of the best P:M DK players right now, I can tell you that my opinion of Fox vs. DK in P:M is like AT LEAST 70:30 in Fox's favor. Probably even more in Fox's favor. It's absolutely terrible for DK.

 

[DMG]

Naw. Fox wins, but past 7:3 sounds a bit harsh. I'd say maybe 65:35

 

[ELI-mination]

Naw. Fox wins, but past 7:3 sounds a bit harsh. I'd say maybe 65:35

You forgot to factor in my bias

 

[DMG]

I assume you mean your Godly Bias towards Winning?

 

[\Apples]

Fox MU spread: Winning

Fox has tiger blood.

 

[tangyzizzler]

In this matchup, do fox things until they lose.

Copy paste for each character and you have your thread

LOL

it's been over a minute and I'm still chuckling at this comment

 

[GHNeko]

Maybe you guys should seriously discuss Fox MUs instead of hurting this thread. <_<

New MUs numbers exist because of new characters and buffed veterans. It may even be possible for Fox to have a MU that isnt in his advantage, even if its slight.

>_>

Seriously guys.

 

[DMG]

I'd love to see that character then. Of the Melee characters, no one hits that mark. 2.1 Lucario and Ike perhaps. Honestly about it. Someone is probably gonna say "BUT DK, BUT MARIO!" and they're just wrong lol

 

[GHNeko]

That's the point of this thread. To discuss MUs. That's when you'll come to find the characters that potentially go even or have a slight advantage over Fox, regadless of whether it's before stage CPs or after.

Now go on, discuss. Start with like an easy candidate, like Lucario.

 

[ELI-mination]

Neko.... you're really underestimating Fox if you think there's any character in this game that has an advantage over him.
/MU Thread

 

[DMG]

On a practical human level, it's easy to argue Falco (for even, for winning the case can be made as well). That's literally it, and a few characters with a good shot at even with Fox fare worse in the 2.5 iteration. Falco and Jiggs result wise and in game are as close as it seems.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nair to Shine is a great option vs ZSS...

OH WAIT THAT'S FOX VS EVERY CHARACTER! Nair won't work because they CC? Mix it up and use Dair. GG

'cept boozer
CC beats nair/bair, CA beats late(?)/staled nair, fresh dash attack/dair/shine
I really want to see a campy crouchy up-b happy boozer play a good fox

I'd love to see that character then. Of the Melee characters, no one hits that mark. 2.1 Lucario and Ike perhaps. Honestly about it. Someone is probably gonna say "BUT DK, BUT MARIO!" and they're just wrong lol

2.1 ike still gets put even in the same remote league as fox? I mean come on... I'm not gonna say he was bad or anything, but even his tourney results started to decline at the end of 2.1, go look at the thread for yourself. If that doesn't convince people he was generally overrated, what would?

 

[Archangel]

The closest I've come to seeing a counter for spacies is Bowser....that dude is just cheating with his CC'ing...Maybe if they take you to a massive stage and try to camp you to death they can win but...Bowser is so strong....if he catches you slipping and you will slip....it's done...

I think Sonic can also do the Match-up extremely well. If I'm not mistaken Wizzy is still the slayer of fox even in 2.5..


aside from that at best I'd say fox goes even with the good characters and beats to so so/bad ones...still.

I would say it's closer though.

DK vs Fox was like 70-30 in Melee where as it's probably 60-40 now. Unless you are Eli vs M2K.

 

[GHNeko]

Neko.... you're really underestimating Fox if you think there's any character in this game that has an advantage over him.
/MU Thread

i dont think anyone has an advantage over him.

but again im sure not everyone agrees. hence the purpose of this thread. to discuss.

 

[G13_Flux]

GW vs Fox is actually very good for GW. i would say its at least even. GW has a lot of combos on fox, and his high priority and range can really create a wall that fox has hard time getting through, even with speed. a patient GW will stuff foxes approaches with fair, bair, dair, utilt, and ftilt. He can bucket through foxes lasers, and he gimps him very hard. GWs combos last till high percents and can kill very early (a simple uthrow > judgement has like a 3 / 7 chance of being the stock if ur close to the edge, and even if it doesnt u have like a 2/7 chance of not racking insane damage), while fox really cant combo GW all that well, so racking damage for fox is hard.
in this MU, range and priority really hurt fox, as well as bread and butter kills that happen early from GW, and a lack of reliable damage racking on foxes part.

 

[GHNeko]

Let's not forget that GaW has Up B OOS which is like frame early as hell, so he can get out of Fox pressure a lot easier than anyone else. And it combos into some really strong *** moves. :V

 

[G13_Flux]

yup totally forgot to mention that. its hard to go right out and say that GW is advantageous, id like to think about it more and get more experience in the MU before i quite say that, but if anyone has the attributes to possibly counter fox, i think itd be GW. Thie answer will hopefully be revealed as the metagame develops. some things that do make it hard for GW though are his weight (his worst weakness really), and average fall speed that gets him killed early from usmash and up throw > up air from fox. his recovery (and i need to test this) seems like it could get out prioritized by shine possibly, leading to easy shine spikes since its his only recovery move and is predictable. a good GW however will use his range and priority to prevent these situations, and a grab for fox might be hard to get.

 

[pyrofox13]

Well maybe if you kept GW on the ground it'd make it easier. I saw the grand finals and the interview afterwards. Mango said that once he started keeping Hbox's jiggly on the ground it made it easier. So maybe its like that with others who fall to the shine. I'd say use the Thunders Combo but I've tried and it doesn't work.

 

[RaynEX]

Treat G&W like you do in Melee. Camp him, grab him when he over-extends his laggy, obvious aerials. Fox is faster, safer, and destroys this character with a simple hit and run strategy. Play safe, apply burst damage when necessary (shines -> techchases / uthrow -> uair / smart shield pressure), and try to get behind him. I don't think his reverse oos(hield) options are amazing.

For some reason you guys are implying that Fox HAS to break through the "wall". He can pelt lasers at it all day, what can G&W do? Weaving around him and slamming him with bairs and lasers IS "reliable damage racking". He could always combo Fox hard (he could CG him in Melee), so I feel like this MU is being needlessly overcomplicated. Fox still has all the same tools that made the MU in his favour, and G&W still has all the same weaknesses.

 

[DMG]

If G^W wants to CC a lot, you can get around this by approaching with Dair instead of Nair.

 

[G13_Flux]

well his aerials arent really laggy at all, first off. he can use a combination of his jab and up b to stay safe on shield, and both of those attacks lead straight into combos. alternatively he can space attacks very well to not get punished by fox's low grab range aerials, or he can just chew his shield up in general with bair or dair. all that spamming lasers is gonna do is fill up the bucket for GW, giving him yet another great defensive and offesnive option to overwhelm fox. GW could combo fox in melee, but his combos now are much more reliable and lead directly into kills and edgeguards any time that he lands one, and they take place at virtually any percent on fox. bottom line is that fox DOES have to get through the wall of GWs attacks. even if fox takes to his DD game and plays a more of a bait and punish game, hows he gonna dair or nair GW if GW can utlilt/ftilt those approches all day? GWs tilts have a lot less endlag than in melee (at least his ftilt does), and his smash attacks are also more effective as well. im not sayin this MU is a walk in the park for GW, dont get me wrong. but its not a walk in the park for fox either. GW is a whole different beast in PM than he is in melee. fox cant treat him the same because of how many options GW has opened up now, in between defensive, approach, and pressure tactics. the only asset that fox really out does GW in is his speed. GW has the same speed as falco, but a better WD. his projectiles isnt as universally applicable, but it does have a lot of use in detering foxes approach and approaching in return if fox wants to laser spam. bottom line is that all the things GW lacked in melee that made this MU so hard (and any other MU really) such as lack of approach options, lack of defensive options (plus a functioning shield), and lack of reliable, non laggy pressuring attacks have all been adressed. GW has a whole new set of tools, and this MU is not nearly the same as it was in melee.

 

[DMG]

It's not different enough that he beats or goes even with Spacies, put it that way

 

[G13_Flux]

have u seen the changelist for GW?

 

[RaynEX]

well his aerials arent really laggy at all, first off. he can use a combination of his jab and up b to stay safe on shield, and both of those attacks lead straight into combos. alternatively he can space attacks very well to not get punished by fox's low grab range aerials, or he can just chew his shield up in general with bair or dair. all that spamming lasers is gonna do is fill up the bucket for GW, giving him yet another great defensive and offesnive option to overwhelm fox. GW could combo fox in melee, but his combos now are much more reliable and lead directly into kills and edgeguards any time that he lands one, and they take place at virtually any percent on fox. bottom line is that fox DOES have to get through the wall of GWs attacks. even if fox takes to his DD game and plays a more of a bait and punish game, hows he gonna dair or nair GW if GW can utlilt/ftilt those approches all day? GWs tilts have a lot less endlag than in melee (at least his ftilt does), and his smash attacks are also more effective as well. im not sayin this MU is a walk in the park for GW, dont get me wrong. but its not a walk in the park for fox either. GW is a whole different beast in PM than he is in melee. fox cant treat him the same because of how many options GW has opened up now, in between defensive, approach, and pressure tactics. the only asset that fox really out does GW in is his speed. GW has the same speed as falco, but a better WD. his projectiles isnt as universally applicable, but it does have a lot of use in detering foxes approach and approaching in return if fox wants to laser spam. bottom line is that all the things GW lacked in melee that made this MU so hard (and any other MU really) such as lack of approach options, lack of defensive options (plus a functioning shield), and lack of reliable, non laggy pressuring attacks have all been adressed. GW has a whole new set of tools, and this MU is not nearly the same as it was in melee.

Are we talking about the same game here?

- His jab is identical to melee. It's a quick attack but it doesn't launch and is easily CCed. It doesn't combo into anyhting.

- G&W's P:M up+B is great with that new feature of eliminating free fall state, but he goes way too high to combo with it on descent. It also has PITIFUL horizontal range. Try it yourself; it's actually hard to hit someone who is standing right next to you.

- Bair / Fair / Dair function the same as in melee. They haven't been improved so much that they cannot be punished. G&W's strength has and always will be properly spaced aerials. The key to beating that in Melee was to run directly into him and force bad spacing, then shield grab his aerials. All of his aerials (if not fully spaced) can be shield grabbed with correct timing. This has not changed at all.

- Are you really advocating his bucket as a response to laser camping? Seriously? It has the exact same range, can only hold 3 lasers (which provides the oil spill with terrible damage to multiply) and G&W has to actually catch Fox to use it. The bucket cannot stop Fox from laser camping.

- G&W's utilt actually lost range (horizontal), so it doesn't work that well against frontal assaults (nair shine anyone?). The tilts are essentially the same barring a few minor adjustments, and they never were a gamechanger. In super theory bros. of course you could tilt all his approaches. But you could have done that in Melee too. I don't see why you think his tilts make that much of a difference.

- I'm sorry, did you just say that G&W's projectiles can be used to deter Fox's approach AND help G&W advance? lol we must be playing a different game

- What new approach options does he have? What "non laggy pressuring attacks" do you mean? The only new tools he has that truly matter is a better dtilt (this move is amazing now), post up+B non-freefall state, and slightly better projectile options with his skillet. None of these improvements change the match-up much, if at all.

edit: and yes I read the changelog. It's awesome he got so much attention, but he is still pretty much the same character (ergo Fox still bops him).

 

[DMG]

Ftilt is a bit better for walling now; better IASA frames or less overall lag to the move, I don't remember what exactly. That's roughly the biggest change for the MU IMO, on a lesser note the Upb change could make it a bit safer to use if you have a platform to land on. Bucket is somewhat better as well because you can use it before the regular 3 charge period, but again doesn't address how he lands the move on Fox.


You covered it all pretty well. MU still bad for G^W

 

[G13_Flux]

well im hardpressed to disagree. SH double bacon CAN help GW. its a good preventative option, and can prevent fox from obnoxiously SH nairing you, and it works even better when theres platforms involved. its not a miracle answer to everything fox has, but it is by no means useless, and yes it can deter fox, and help GW. you can wavebounce with it, with adds another level of spacing and baiting. i have used it to good effect versus a couple pretty skilled fox players, so i am very confident with its uses.

bucket isnt an aswer to foxes laser, but it certainly is going to fill up GWs bucket, and its not hard to implement if fox is approaching or if hes off the edge.

jab gives GW safe pressure on shield, like up b does. it is a quick attack and can combo into dtilt. GWs, ftilt will cover any approach options fox has from the from the front, ie. nair. if he wants to try and dair you, ftilt will still cover that out of a SH, and it has been given some good IASA frames so that he can utilt quick enough to cover if fox full hops instead. in melee, ftilt was slower, had a hitbox that didnt linger, and had more lag. it isnt gamebreaking, but it can be used good effect, and it definitely affects the MU even if a bit.

his aerials have been buffed in that they can all be L cancelled now, something that desperately hurt GW, especially with his bair, in melee. his dair and uair have also been improved, giving them landing hits that help out a lot with pressure on shield, and function very reliably especailly when there are platforms involved, and they are great combo tools now. it is actually quite hard to shield grab bair uair, and dair. bair will eat foxes shield before he can even shield grab, and if id doesnt, then he can up b for extremely safe pressure. if you are trying to use up b spontaneously, then you are doing it wrong. it is meant to be used on shield due to its quickness or as an OOS option, which, with proper timing, can avoid some of foxes pillars. this is what i mean by non laggy pressuring, as he now has functioning aerials, and extremely quick options that form a pseudo pillar.

fox cannot succesfully CC jab unless he is practically overlapping him, or else jab 2 will take effect, which with its quicker endlag (or rather, it doesnt loop for as long now), it is easy for GW to end it and still escape from a punish that results off good SDI.

GW also has a largely improved dash attack, which can be used sometimes for approaching, but more for tech chasing and continuing combos and tech chases, something that GW can do pretty well with his long WD.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree, but i think that GW has had major issues that were present in melee addressed in PM, that much is unquestionable. i have had good experiences with GW versus fox players, and i am also a firm believer that good players can trump MUs any day. just look at armada with peach. but this is what im sticking to.

 

[RaynEX]

Agree to disagree sounds good. The Armada reference was unnecessary, I'm aware that G&W is capable of winning against Fox. I'm trying to share why I think this MU is still tilted heavily in Fox's favour, and why G&W's overall options (new ones included) still don't hold up against his space animal nonsense. This is coming from years upon years of playing Melee, so I don't mean to come off as rude. I've just done the MU a gazillion times (vs. Dire a few times too, who was the best G&W in NA) so my opinion is pretty set in stone. Unless major improvements are made I can't see it being any better than 6.5 for Fox. If Fox v Falcon is 6-4 (Fox's favour) no way in hell does G&W do as well as Falcon. P:M was made to feel / play like Melee, and many aspects of it still adhere to the Melee standard. This is the underpinning of my argument.

Also, what in the hell is wavebouncing? Sounds incredibly silly : /

 

[DrinkingFood]

wavebouncing is a ****ty brawl term for reverse B-reversing. By ****ty I mean not only does it sound silly but it also doesn't follow the normal naming convention for the wave- prefix. Just makes more sense to call it a Reverse B-Reverse, which actually describes what it is, and then abbreviate it to RBR if you're lazy.

 

[RaynEX]

So it doesn't involve air-dodging / manipulating smash physics to produce a slide or bounce? Why is it called "wave"bouncing, where does the wave part come into play? That's so confusing. By B-reversing do you mean SH turnaround B special moves, like a turnaround laser with Fox?

 

[DMG]

It's a stupid term that wasn't well thought out lol. Basically, you are reversing your character AFTER the special is inputted. Instead of the usual "run away laser" you'll see Fox or Falco do, they will start to shoot it forward and then their body will shift/turn the other way.

 

[G13_Flux]

jesus christ people its just a damn word. ive already argued this to you food, but in all actuallity "wavedashing" makes no sense, because there is no oscilation of anything. its a straight dash. wanna tell me how that makes sense? wavebouncing is very wavey, and makes perfect sense because the characters momentum shifts very quickly to the other direction, hence the oscilation of momentum. in any wave, whatever medium makes up the wave oscilates back and forth, without that oscilation there is nothing wavey about it (ie, wavedashing). if you dont know what im talking about, google it. its tech that carried over from brawl, and with certain characters, wavebouncing is a very useful tactic to help in spacing, baiting, punishing, and overall mobility control. it is the equivalent of a "b-reverse," yes, but many people still call it wavebouncing, and i will continue to do so.

aside from that, i was basically trying to argue that GW is not the same character in melee and should not be played as such. GW is also not very comparable to CF in how they attack, the properties of their attacks, and their overall playstyle in general. my reference to armada was to prove my point that MU specs do not determine outcomes, and a great GW player can overcome that any day. melee is a different world for GW, and i dont think that people have enough experience with PROJECT M game and watch to really understand what i see about him. that said, we have discussed several points about that MU and have come to a standstill. i think its time to move on.

instead of talking about how fox wrecks everybody in PM just because he did that in melee, lets try to discuss some characters that have good potential wit the fox MU. if fox truly still is the best in PM, then its gonna take more than just "fox is the best" to argue that notion. i feel that their are a lot of characters that have been given good techniques and strategies that far exceed that of the average melee metagame. from an idividual standpoint, nobody has gotten worse than they were in melee, the only characters are said to be worse are people like jiggly puff, who have gotten suposedly "relatively" worse, when compared to others. with that, theres a high chance that a lot of characters who had -1 or -2 MUs against fox in melee, could now have improved numbers against him to the point where its even or possibly advantageous. things that tend to perform well against fox in my opinion are characters with good defensive options (like peach with her CCs, great OOS attacks, and combo breakers), at least fair mobility in some way or another, and range and priority. characters like ganon have much difficulty (even though he has range and priority) because his mobility is just horrendous. some people that seem to fit this general archetype are characters like peach (had -1 against fox in melee, her buffs could potentially change this MU), charizard (great mobility and speed, huge range, and reliable killing combos), squirtle (great mobility, light armour on attacks in great defensively, and wonderful approach options), and ike (great range and power, good mobility with QD, and high killing potential). now these are a couple characters ive thought of at first glance that seem to have attributes that could fair well against fox. what do u guys think?