Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[shadrach kabango]

Yup, thanks. I was practicing dash-nairing falcon in training mode with CPU on evade when i made that post . i'm all about putting in the work to be as technically perfect as possible so i'll add that to my training regimen. super important to do because no matter where you live it's impossible to play high level players of every single character, and you don't want your first exposure to "gee zomg that puff/peach jumps/rests/air dodges out of my uthrow uair so easily" that to be in tournament =P

 

[omgwtfToph]

good to know, going into my database

another question:

you uthrow falcon and he hard DIs away. at what % (at the time of the uthrow) can you dash out of throw and nair?

for some reason reacting asap out of fox's throw this is a particularly challenging piece of tech skill

So this doesn't truly combo until at least 30-40%, but I think it's a good idea as early as, like, 10%ish because if they DJ (to avoid having to tech the ground), your nair will clip them out of it and you get a fatty combo. If they hit the ground and tech, you can sometimes still react and punish if they tech away.

And yeah, regarding what Bones said make sure you keep weight in mind. Try uthrow uairing Jigglypuff, you can act REALLY REALLY fast out of the uthrow (and to get it to combo at higher %s, you have to) compared to uthrow uairing Peach (for example).

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just back throw

 

[Divinokage]

First hit of fair is the future

Heh, Fair seems to have a lot of shield stun for such a weak move.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So yeah, what throw do you do on Jiggs/Peach when they're above U-throw>U-air?

Do you guys try D-throw and then tech chase? B-throw for a cheap mixup? U-throw after all and try to follow them coming down anyway?

I personally prefer D-throw when they are way out of my reach.

 

[Bones0]

I just back throw

We can't all be that gdlk.

So yeah, what throw do you do on Jiggs/Peach when they're above U-throw>U-air?

Do you guys try D-throw and then tech chase? B-throw for a cheap mixup? U-throw after all and try to follow them coming down anyway?


I personally prefer D-throw when they are way out of my reach.

What about grab releasing? If they jump out, you can probably just run up with a quick usmash to trade, or if they stay grounded you can probably count on them shielding so just regrab or attack when you think they will move OoS. I haven't tried this so it probably won't work how I imagine.

 

[omgwtfToph]

It doesn't work like how you'd imagine.

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

if someone is at high % and past uthrow-uair % i just throw them in the direction that moves them further from center stage. then wall them out with bair

 

[Tarv]

I've been thinking a bit about Fox's lasers. Basically, I've been trying to figure out if there's any practical usage for it that has slipped by the many fox mains out there. I mean the application for certain match-ups such as Puff and Peach is kind of obvious, seeing as those little ticks of damage get them that much closer to that crucial uair kill percent range. But what about for the other relevant matches? Is there a way to utilize Fox's laser effectively in the Falco or the Marth matches for example? Historically it seems like most people have been turned off by Fox's laser game for a multitude of obvious reasons. I mean it's really not that much damage, it's sacrificing stage position, it's a huuuuge risk for basically no reward and the time you spent lasering is better spent doing a multitude of other things like DDing. However, a small part of me is kind of wondering if fox's laser game has any hidden benefits (more to the point shdl since single-laser seems especially useless.) Theoretically, those extra ticks of damage could be all the percent you need to put your opponent closer to a kill range. Perhaps on some of the bigger stages like FD or DL64 it has some merit to it? If you think about it if you shdl camp someone on FD it's basically saying, "you have to approach me or keep taking these little bits of damage." I feel like most players would be inclined to charge in (since they can effectively ignore the laser completely do to the lack of hitstun) and maybe that'll bait out some poor approaches. I dont know really, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. Another way you could look it is that despite its setbacks it IS essentially free damage; free damage is good yes? Additionally, his laser game could be viewed as a ranged way of feinting your opponent, which goes back to baiting out poor approaches. Perhaps fox's laser game just hasn't been effectively implemented in the current meta... Or maybe all of the drawbacks I've already listed (and a few I left out) are all the evidence needed to basically ignore fox's laser except for the puff match.

What are your thoughts on Fox's laser?

 

[Xyzz]

Shoot them if you want your opponent to come to you (e.g. he's near the ledge, and you don't feel like risking bthrow gimps or something). Or if the two of you end up so far apart, that you can shoot for free damage while you move up to the middle anyways.

Shoot more if your opponent tries to camp you or plays a slow character. Shoot less if he's going to you anyways.

 

[Tarv]

So it's essentially a way to control your opponents approaches to some degree? If so, there's no way that fox's laser game is utilized enough from the looks of it.

 

[Xyzz]

It doesn't strictly speaking force them to do anything; they can continue eating chip damage for a long time, but most people feel rather compelled to come over to you after a second shdl.
And most people come to you anyways, in which case your obviously better off keeping yourself mobile which will make it more likely to win the incoming exchange, instead of just putting on 5% before getting combo'ed for 50.

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, seems like you're on the same page of what I was thinking with fox's laser game myself. I was kind of thinking that it was basically "ok" but it seemed like there were always better options. I guess I was trying to see if there was something that people were missing with his laser game that wasn't readily apparent. You and I both noticed the opportunity for it to be utilized as an approach baiting tool but I also agree that the reward for lasering someone for 5% isn't worth taking a buttload of damage and potentially losing a stock. Sometimes I get in these moods where I think that every attack a character has, has something to offer for the character in tournament play that people are missing. Yet other times I'm inclined to just go, "Dashdance and uthrow, uair are all fox needs lol"

Thanks for that discussion though Xyzz!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Did somebody say, "laser"?

Oh someone asked about lasers? Fox's laser doesn't really help him grab people (aside from sort of making people more willing to play close to you but it kind of can do that without you using it much so doing it more than the amount needed to reap that reward isn't really beneficial IMO or even recommended) so it's not worth working with too intensely (don't build a playstyle around it!). Fox as a character needs to hit close to the opponent to get a solid hit because his most wanted moves are grab, u-smash, shine (on grounded humans, anytime vs spacies), bair, and so forth. They hit close to his body which means he needs a proximity for them to work. Lasers by necessity demand horizontal distance. Fox likes controlling where the fighting is because he needs to out-position to win exchanges, which means he likes interacting with the movement hubs at center stage. Laser sort of works against this in a small way by its horizontal distance demand because Fox's gun is stupid and doesn't protect itself like Falco's.

So yeah. Actually, something I've been wondering is if I'm just skeptical. Lasers get a lot of attention but honestly I just don't see its charms aside from maiming Bowser and similar garbage tier characters who have no real options against Fox's movement; to me, Fox's laser comes off as a really shallow move in general. Free chip damage poke from a certain distance but the attack itself offers no protection - you have to have all that arranged beforehand. So using laser more or better really deals more with getting into those positions more or better, which is movement game. Not really laser game. The lasers you get to fire are merely a byproduct of tweaking your movement game and threat exertion versus your opponent's willingness to bum-rush you.


I guess if I had to give tangible advice though I'd say just make sure the opponent knows that lasers exist but if you shoot more than 20% off their stock from neutral then you're probably doing too many or they're really boring to play against. If you get hit out of a laser or find yourself trying to shoot a laser at a distance you know is unsafe but feel you can get away with it, regardless of whether it is unpunished or not you are shooting too many because if you could get away with 1-3% you could have gotten away with messing with their positioning in an actual meaningful way too and that would have been way better.

My stance on this basically hasn't changed at all except I'm realizing their purpose vs Peach a bit more. That's about it, really.

 

[balladechina212]

I think SHF single laser kind of mitigates your lack of mobility to trade for less damage (compared to SHDL), so it's usually my campy move of choice. If they're approaching you anyway, why not tack on a few free % while staying mobile with shorthop fastfalls? I really do think it depends a lot on stage though. It's much easier to use lasers to make a Marth approach you on DL than on FoD.

 

[Tarv]

*Gasp* KK is still alive?!? Thanks yet again, this was really helpful and touched base on some things I hadn't considered so extensively. Seems like so far we're all in agreement on fox's laser game I guess. Since fox is my "main of the week" (I've given up actually having a main) I appreciate all the tips I can find. Also, generally trying to play smarter during my matches which looking back I really haven't been doing.

 

[shadrach kabango]

So this doesn't truly combo until at least 30-40%, but I think it's a good idea as early as, like, 10%ish because if they DJ (to avoid having to tech the ground), your nair will clip them out of it and you get a fatty combo. If they hit the ground and tech, you can sometimes still react and punish if they tech away.

i don't think this works. i feel like they can jump out before you can do anything. i know (well i don't "know" because while my tech skill is v good, it's not great) you can't dash--> usmash in time and usmash is only what, 4 frames faster than nair?

i really don't know what, if anything, is "guaranteed" v falcon that first 10-20 if he hard DIs. feels like the most you can do is tech chase (which is harder to cover than you think because, like i said, feels like he has a frame advantage by hitting the ground before you can dash out of throw) or read the double jump.

every other falcon it doesn't matter but when you're playing the best falcon main in the world it's like... god johnny is so good. time to watch more oscar v johnny and see how he does it

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thing about using the frame data the way you are is that you're not accounting for how much dash JC <action> and dash SH aerial store the momentum from the dash, nor the actual placement of the attack's hitboxes within the move.

To understand this, just dash JC grab and then dash JC u-smash. Aim for the fastest JC after dash possible. They both have the same speed but you'll notice he slides forward more from the grab than the u-smash. So u-smash out of dash JC actually has less reach than grab. Neat. Now compare if you do dash SH nair, aiming to jump as soon as you can out of your dash. Now compare that to the other two. Again, another unique reach.

Also I have no idea how you got u-smash being 4 frames faster than nair. Nair takes like 7 to come out, after factoring for his jump startup (jump start is 3, nair hits on frame 4). His u-smash hits 7, but you have to JC into it and it starts around his feet so it's really hitting with the hitbox that's active on frame 9 (without factoring in the JC). So really it's more like frame 10-11, provided I did the math correctly.

I maintain b-throw and then just tech chasing him or accepting that you've made Falcon DI away and tech roll to the edge, placing them in a very dangerous place where they can die for no reason at all and can't really dash dance anymore is actually pretty good. But then the catch is you have to be decent at edgeguarding, gimping, and handling pressured he-men.

 

[Jim Morrison]

**** that noise, just U-throw falcon and make him jump, don't even try to hit him. Then just follow his jump with U-air/B-air.

This probably works in my tiny little scrub world though.

 

[PGH Carroll]

may be like 7 years late to the party but whats the fastest way to set up doraki walljump?

can you do it anywhere else besides FD?

 

[omgwtfToph]

**** that noise, just U-throw falcon and make him jump, don't even try to hit him. Then just follow his jump with U-air/B-air.

This probably works in my tiny little scrub world though.

That works fine but I don't think covering all of his options after DJ is feasible on reaction, especially if you account for Falcons that hit the ground and tech.

i don't think this works. i feel like they can jump out before you can do anything. i know (well i don't "know" because while my tech skill is v good, it's not great) you can't dash--> usmash in time and usmash is only what, 4 frames faster than nair?

i really don't know what, if anything, is "guaranteed" v falcon that first 10-20 if he hard DIs. feels like the most you can do is tech chase (which is harder to cover than you think because, like i said, feels like he has a frame advantage by hitting the ground before you can dash out of throw) or read the double jump.

It works if and only if they doublejump. Tested all the percents and **** with Lord about a month or two ago. It's good but when Falcon is below 30ish%, you have to realize that you're not going to be able to cover every option. If you're fighting a Falcon who DJ's out, SH nair is good. Otherwise, let them land and techchase. Also, in the event that Falcon doesn't DJ (so he hits the ground), he definitely does not hit the ground before you can dash out of throw. You have time to walk to his landing position and prepare to techchase Sheik-style. (The difficulty comes from the fact that Falcon doesn't have to land)

 

[shadrach kabango]

I maintain b-throw

thought you were joking. i'll try it. what about dthrow, particularly when you grab in such a position where his tech roll is compromised by his position to the stage?

That works fine but I don't think covering all of his options after DJ is feasible on reaction, especially if you account for Falcons that hit the ground and tech.

It works if and only if they doublejump. Tested all the percents and **** with Lord about a month or two ago. It's good but when Falcon is below 30ish%, you have to realize that you're not going to be able to cover every option. If you're fighting a Falcon who DJ's out, SH nair is good. Otherwise, let them land and techchase. Also, in the event that Falcon doesn't DJ (so he hits the ground), he definitely does not hit the ground before you can dash out of throw. You have time to walk to his landing position and prepare to techchase Sheik-style. (The difficulty comes from the fact that Falcon doesn't have to land)

this is exactly what i was looking for, thanks bro :D.

so to recap: dash shnair works v falcon's hard DI from 0-30% if they DJ?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

if you space it right, wud it be smart to only use the second hit of falco and fox uair so they cant sdi out of first hit
its really good with falco, i also hate the sound of the two hits connecting

 

[genkaku]

rocketpowerchill, that's been smart for a long time

 

[KirbyKaze]

thought you were joking. i'll try it. what about dthrow, particularly when you grab in such a position where his tech roll is compromised by his position to the stage?

I'm not really a fan of d-throw because the time to act out of it is sort of slow and I feel b-throw and f-throw do more in general. Mostly because there's very little variance to their throw's trajectory (always goes in their respective direction, just varying distances) and there's a better action window relative to d-throw. Feels easier to manipulate with them.

And when u-throw goes online, u-throw obsoletes them all in like 90% of situations.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i think i just invented something
falco can dthrow cg fox
KAPPA
omg tech pls

 

[Jim Morrison]

How do techs come into play?

lel im blind

Kappa

 

[Tero.]

I started clawing my waveshines and now I practiced to do them so fast and because of that I always **** up on hit, FML

Btw sup Fox boards!
I'm back and I don't know if i should go with the speedy spacey animal or the lesbian ninja

 

[shadrach kabango]

If it's a true CC, then it's something like 63% (give or take 1-2%)

according to SCOTU this is the answer:

Peach falls to Fox's nair when CCed at:
Strong Nair: 83%
Weak Nair: 121%

(%s are before the nair)​

source:​

http://smashboards.com/threads/scotus-frame-data-q-a-request-thread.112627/​

 

[noobird]

i think i just invented something
falco can dthrow cg fox
KAPPA
omg tech pls

only if the fox is bad. fox can shine out of it/buffer spotdodge/roll

 

[Bones0]

Dthrow shine instead.

 

[Jim Morrison]

D-throw shine Up-smash if you're a man. Covers all options except rolls ALL OPTIONS

 

[shadrach kabango]

anybody know the frame data for shine --> turnaround --> grab?

turnaround only adds 1 frame, right?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't have exact frame data, but I am going to tell you right now that it is impervious that you master that **** if you want to remain on top of your Fox game. Now that I'm able to use it all times when I feel like it, it's like a golden door opened up. You can't understand the power of having grab pressure while you're hitting someone's shield from behind. Remember all those times you did a SH B-air > Shine > pressure on their shield? That's right, you can now just grab.

Every spacie player should be able to shinegrab in their sleep.

Regarding how fast it is: It feels a bit slower than a normal shinegrab, but the reason for this is that you have to move your control stick from left to right first before going up. It might be just me, because I shinegrab by jumping out of shine with up on the control stick, but it makes it slower to me. But the turnaround feels like it's instant, making it one frame. It also doesn't make sense for shine turnaround to take more than one frame.

 

[Bones0]

I don't have exact frame data, but I am going to tell you right now that it is impervious that you master that **** if you want to remain on top of your Fox game.

Imperative. lol

 

[_wzrd]

good idea bruh

hey how do di to tech fox's shine? just down, down away? i noticed mango techs it almost everytime when he's grounded against fox as falco

or is it just timing ur tech well--i don't rly play foxes ever so i don't rly get to experiment

 

[Divinokage]

Id say try to SDI up and away, it gives you a bit more room to time your tech. But doing that on reaction isnt gonna happen unless you know the shine will come after an aerial. You can really only expect it when Fox is directly on you.

 

[_wzrd]

interesting, thanks kage. yeaah a lotta times i got a feel for when fox is gonna shine, but just get knocked down. gotta get more practice when I can find some other fox players

 

[unknown522]

according to SCOTU this is the answer:

Peach falls to Fox's nair when CCed at:
Strong Nair: 83%
Weak Nair: 121%

(%s are before the nair)​

source:​

http://smashboards.com/threads/scotus-frame-data-q-a-request-thread.112627/​

It's definitely a lot lower than 83%

 

[BTmoney]

I don't have exact frame data, but I am going to tell you right now that it is impervious that you master that **** if you want to remain on top of your Fox game. Now that I'm able to use it all times when I feel like it, it's like a golden door opened up. You can't understand the power of having grab pressure while you're hitting someone's shield from behind. Remember all those times you did a SH B-air > Shine > pressure on their shield? That's right, you can now just grab.

Every spacie player should be able to shinegrab in their sleep.

Regarding how fast it is: It feels a bit slower than a normal shinegrab, but the reason for this is that you have to move your control stick from left to right first before going up. It might be just me, because I shinegrab by jumping out of shine with up on the control stick, but it makes it slower to me. But the turnaround feels like it's instant, making it one frame. It also doesn't make sense for shine turnaround to take more than one frame.

iirc shine turnaround takes 3 frames (word of mouth, not sure why someone would make that up. or they're just wrong)