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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Chroma

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Today in a twitch stream, Leffen mentioned that waveshine OOS has a 1 or 2 frame window somewhere in its execution.
I always thought you "just" grounded shine OOS, and then you have your usual windows for cancelling the shine into a wavedash.
What actually goes on? Also, is getting the shine grounded just a matter of speed? Thanks in advance.


Also, I've been watching some matches in 1/2 - 1/4 speed to really break down what's going on in neutral and such. Is this a bad habit?
 

Pengie

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Today in a twitch stream, Leffen mentioned that waveshine OOS has a 1 or 2 frame window somewhere in its execution.
I always thought you "just" grounded shine OOS, and then you have your usual windows for cancelling the shine into a wavedash.
What actually goes on? Also, is getting the shine grounded just a matter of speed? Thanks in advance.


Also, I've been watching some matches in 1/2 - 1/4 speed to really break down what's going on in neutral and such. Is this a bad habit?
Well iirc, you only have one frame to get a grounded shine out of shield (your first airborne frame from a jump) so there would only be one frame to input the shine if you wanted it to be grounded, which you would need if you were going to WD after the shine.

As for the playback speed thing, it should be fine assuming you actually understand what you're seeing well enough that you still get it when it happens at normal speed. Any particular reason that you feel it might be a hindrance?
 

Chroma

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Well iirc, you only have one frame to get a grounded shine out of shield (your first airborne frame from a jump) so there would only be one frame to input the shine if you wanted it to be grounded, which you would need if you were going to WD after the shine.

As for the playback speed thing, it should be fine assuming you actually understand what you're seeing well enough that you still get it when it happens at normal speed. Any particular reason that you feel it might be a hindrance?

Thanks! Just to clarify, if I'm in shield and try to jump out of it, I can't do anything until my character actually leaves the ground?

I'm just worrying that I'm going to get used to the slowed-down pace and not be able to analyze/react in actual matches, or that I'm discounting the role that reaction times play when I'm watching matches like this. As long as I make sure I can pick things up in real game speed like you said, it should be fine.
 

Bones0

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Thanks! Just to clarify, if I'm in shield and try to jump out of it, I can't do anything until my character actually leaves the ground?

I'm just worrying that I'm going to get used to the slowed-down pace and not be able to analyze/react in actual matches, or that I'm discounting the role that reaction times play when I'm watching matches like this. As long as I make sure I can pick things up in real game speed like you said, it should be fine.
The term people use for it is "jumpsquat". During it, you can only grab, usmash, up-B, or ledgecancel (usually by someone hitting your shield so you slide towards the ledge and fall off during a jumpsquat frame).

Watching matches in slomo is a GREAT habit to get into, and one that's helped me a ton since I've started doing it. I usually follow this process for the quality matches that I study hard:

1. Watch the match at full speed for entertainment purposes. This helps to get rid of my tendency to combo fiend. I have a feeling when a lot of players try to "study" a match, they are almost entirely focused on the punish game and how sick-nasty it looks. Plus, as much as I love competing in Melee, a big part of competing in something is to also be a fan of it. I enjoy watching all different sorts of matchups even if I know only 1% of what I see will ever affect me in tournament. It does help to know a lot of the mid tier gameplans overall, though. I wouldn't bother going through them in slomo because the details aren't critical, but getting a general idea of what characters are going for absolutely helps you be ready for those uncommon matchups in tourney.

2. Rewatch the match at full speed looking for overarching patterns. Don't obsess on the details too much that you end up replaying the same bit of video over and over. You just want to get a good big picture of the match, and often set in general. What were the players' tendencies? What was the recurring theme of the match? As an example, try to figure out what the recurring theme of this game was, but make sure you MUTE YOUR COMPUTER FIRST. Then, replay it back and listen to the commentator's opinion of what the major theme/goal of the match was for both players. If you didn't say the same thing he did, what did you say instead? What does your answer vs. the commentator's say about you as a player? (Please spoiler your comments pertaining to the video if anyone decides to do this, though most of you may recognize it).


3. Watch the match in slow motion. Keeping the major keys to success you noticed above in mind, look at the details of how and why it is working. Rewatching sections as many times as possible is great as long as you are actually gaining from it. Don't expect to just rewatch a segment 50 times and suddenly understand it. You have to constantly alter your perspective of what happened and challenge your fundamental beliefs. Someone may watch a successful techchase over and over and just keep attributing the success to guessing correctly. If the whole match is filled with what look like correct guesses despite the opponent mixing up his DI and tech direction, you will feel like it was luck or some abstract skill you cannot obtain. If you challenge the idea that it was even a prediction at all, you may realize, "OMG, he's spacing himself to bait certain tech options and still punishing the most difficult one." "OMG, he's only going for regrabs until he feels the opponent is trapped sufficiently, which effectively reduces his tech options to 2 spots instead of 3." You won't notice these things if you refuse to see stuff at anything past face value.

Neutral is probably the hardest thing for me to study, but I feel like I've gained a lot by constantly keeping in mind both players positions on the screen relative to each other, the direction they are facing, and other states their characters are in (landing lag, hitstun, dash animation, etc). Being above an enemy is generally considered a bad place to be, but if the player only positioned himself above the opponent because the enemy was dashing away and he knew it would be safe, then that's something important to note. If you go through in slomo and even pause constantly, you can evaluate and reevaluate a situation frame by frame and figure out what went right or wrong for each player.

4. Watch the video once again in full speed. I think your fear of getting used to evaluating situations slowly is a legitimate one. To sort of counteract this effect, once I've sufficiently broken down a match mentally about what was going on, I rewatch it and try to notice everything I did before at full speed. If you noticed a really subtle spacing of a move or WD or DD in slomo, you have to be able to notice that same subtlety at full speed. If you pass that segment with the subtle spacing in the back of your mind, you need to rewatch the entire match and force yourself to bring that spacing into your consciousness.

The more relevant an aspect of the game is, the more focused you should be on it. If the spacing of a particular laser was largely inconsequential, I'm not going to obsess over it because Melee is very much about rationing your focus. You can't focus on everything, so knowing what to focus can often be more important than figuring out what to do. A lot of situations have an obvious answer, but if you miss the question, you're kind of ****ed, aren't you? I will sometimes repeat steps 3 and 4 a couple times to really forge those concepts in my memory.

5. Watch other videos of the same players (easy way is to use the next game of the set) that you haven't seen at all yet. Watching at full speed, look for the same concepts you identified earlier. When you go through this process again with the next game, in addition to the other stuff you are trying to notice, try to keep track of what you missed on your first study of the second video. You may notice you aren't lending enough attention to spacing or grabbing or aerials or defensive movements or your opponent's tech patterns. If you realize you aren't instinctively picking up on these concepts in the second video, then for the third one take extra care to really focus on them the first time you watch through. Eventually, you'll be noticing concepts without even trying.

Spacing around shield grabs was one of the first really distinct concepts I learned from watching Mango vids, and these days I literally think about it every time I see a player hit another player's shield. More importantly, when I am playing, that same analysis carries over and I am able to subconsciously space around shield grabs without having to devote huge amounts of focus on it.





I like to think of watching Melee matches as listening to a new song. First, you just enjoy the experience. Second, you try to figure out what the song is about. Analyze the overall format of how the song is composed, and think about what impacts that may have on the song as a whole (how a chorus is repeated or how verses are constructed can really be the factor that makes a song stick out to you in both a good and a bad way). Third, you want to look at the mechanics and details of the song that make it so effective as a means of storytelling. How does the artist emphasize different words/beats/notes to achieve a specific feeling/meaning? What does their word choice and instrumentation say about the emotions of the song? How would you have tried to create the song if you only had a vaguely similar concept? What does your imaginary take on the song say about you as an artist or fan of music?
 
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BTmoney

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does thunder's work vs DI away?

Idk why but it's always been hard for me to hit. I always waveshine into a usmash in the ditto and vs Falco and it works perfectly fine if they don't tech the shine. Usmash gives you pretty much the same followups anyways. You have to be pretty fast for this too but I'm wondering why no one does this, esp at kill percent at at mid percent when you can't jab reset anymore
 

BTmoney

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If they DI up, it doesn't work.
Thunder's? Know what kind of DI gets you out of usmash?

Well I'm pretty much contemplating which one is better to use since you're in the position of power as the offender/combo-er.
The usmash is easier to get (for me, idk about everyone else), gives you good %, leads into familiar followups or kills, and takes more control away from the defender.

If you thunder's (idk why it's harder for me lol) you have to keep track of %, jab reset stops working, (assuming they miss the tech) the opponent can get a get up attack or a roll instead of having no option, and the resulting combo/followup is a bit harder to pull off.

So considering all of that I'm in the usmash party, you can get a ton off both so I like the consistent option. But I'm probably the only one who cares
 
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why are you considering thunders combo vs upsmash? you need a launcher conversion of of a reset? explain your ideal situation.
 

BTmoney

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why are you considering thunders combo vs upsmash? you need a launcher conversion of of a reset? explain your ideal situation.
To be specific this is thunder's combo vs waveshine usmash on spacies. This is strictly about punishment.

You hit the opposing Fox/Falco with an aerial (and they didn't CC it, so for the sake of simplicity you opened up the other person with a drill) and it combos into a shine. Or even better you just spot dodged-> shined something

(Drill grab isn't consistently a true combo so I'm not considering that into this equation. If you're slow on the grab or drill doesn't hit super low Falco shines you and you die. If you mess up these combos nothing really bad happens to you.)

At this point you can either thunder's, waveshine into a usmash, or do nothing (and try to tech chase the missed tech or try to react to them teching). At this point you have nothing guaranteed unless you can tech chase all of the tech options on reaction (can you?).

I typed a lot more after all of this but I didn't keep it because it might be outside the scope of your question lol.
 
D

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generally thunders along with the other jab resets all require that the opponent actually fall for the jab reset...which is pretty good most of the time. if you're just going for hard punishment i'd stick to upsmash since it's always going to be the same but more damage all else equal

i'm not trying to be a doucheass but if you're considering one option vs another you should understand the basis of your comparison is all. usually i tend to stick to grab upthrow with all of my resets but that's mostly to keep it easier for myself rather than true optimization of the situation. but hey that's why i'm bad.
 

FrootLoop

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In a good chunk of situations up smash has worse follows than grab or uptilt, but the jab reset isn't always reliable. Up smash is probably sufficient if it's reliable to you and you're reacting to the missed tech as opposed to guessing it. You could check out down tilt too. If it will knock down then at worst you get an ideally setup techchase and at best it combos into grab/upsmash.
 

BTmoney

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I pretty much agree with both of you but frootloop the thing is whenever you shine fox/falco (as you know) you can't react to them not teching unless they don't tech & they choose not to do anything.

So whether or not you thunders/usmash/dtilt you have to guess/assume they don't tech for any of that to work. So should we be talking about shining then doing nothing and trying to tech chase?
 

Chroma

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Thanks for the advice, Bones!

On a semi-related note, lots of falcos manage to pop out of the jab reset in thunders (after a missed tech of course) at pretty low percents, which I lazily attribute to SDI - but is it just that falco's not forced to stand up from a jab reset at crazy high percentages like fox?
 

FrootLoop

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After thinking about it more it's a bit different than I described.

From 'confirmable action -> shine' on a grounded space animal, I think you should do 'wavedash forward -> jab -> react'. I believe this covers tech in and missed tech, while tech away and tech neutral get away for the most part. The catch is they can also confirm the confirmable action.

If they will be airborne for the shine then I think you just do 'wavedash forward -> react'. This covers everything.

Falco seems to get out of the jab reset more because he can just hold up and get out at really low percentages.
 

Jim Morrison

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If they DI the Usmash far away from you, I really have trouble believing you can convert off it, other than covering their way down (which is good but nothing guaranteed). Thunder gives you a U-throw U-air which is (on chars that fall down from shine) almost always guaranteed.
The other factor is, if they manage to tech the shine, and you U-smash, you whiff it and they are in front of you while you're still busy whiffing. You'll get grabbed and should be dead. I can't actually do the U-smash on Falco after a shine, the only application I can think of that makes it very strong is killing potential, but that doesn't start until well in the 120's. It is a nice option for when Thunder's doesn't work, or they DI up (when they SDI the Thunder's jab up, they don't get reset), then the U-smash sounds good.

But I think that if U-smash works, so will D-tilt, and I definitely like D-tilt's trajectory more than U-smash.

edit:
So whether or not you thunders/usmash/dtilt you have to guess/assume they don't tech for any of that to work. So should we be talking about shining then doing nothing and trying to tech chase?

Yes but the difference is that if they tech your U-smash and you miss, you're gonna get 80%. If they tech the jab, you can jab again and who knows what happens then.
 

Bones0

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Vs. S2J, you were doing a lot of FH crossup nairs and immediately nairing back through him. Did you think it would be too risky to try to grab on either pass through, or were you worried about him rolling and gaining center stage, or do you prefer nair followups to grab, or was it something completely different?
 
D

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I'm gonna go with Frank on this one. Doing the jab reset without a pre-emptive input basically just disables get-up attack and puts you in a threatening position with no chance for a conversion from the opponent sans maybe stand > shine if your reaction speed sucks. getting rid of get-up attack as an option for the opponent makes it MUCH easier to react and a lot of the time you'll get a standard jab reset anyway which is still fine. it's simple, easy to do, keeps you in a good position, and let's you react from a mild positional advantage. seems like everything fox wants to me.
 

Xyzz

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Yeah, once you start moving you can just cancel your forward movement at the next designated stop-position by pressing "b".

Sorry for the bad joke ;)
Just learn the timing between hitting b and then hitting b again. It's like a suuuuper slow wavedash; no need to react to anything, just hit two buttons at a certain time interval. The startup before you move is really, really close to one's actual reaction time.
 
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Vs. S2J, you were doing a lot of FH crossup nairs and immediately nairing back through him. Did you think it would be too risky to try to grab on either pass through, or were you worried about him rolling and gaining center stage, or do you prefer nair followups to grab, or was it something completely different?
I didn't wanna get aeriald out of shield. Its pretty safe and might start something. It would be good to use grab in that situation eventually if that nair was my first read. That's basically why i did I. I could think of some other reasons why its good to do it too, or bad.
 

Geranimo

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Hi, I get shield grabbed nearly every time I try to drillshine, so should I:
1. get a better timing
2. dair later
3. FF my dair

Thanks
 

Druggedfox

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Hey guys, would anyone be willing to give me some advice on my recent set with Hungrybox? Any and all advice would be appreciated :)

If you don't want to take the time to watch carefully and give advice, even general comments/opinions (what you liked or didn't like etc) would be awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLZnHe_jbkE
 
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Hi, I get shield grabbed nearly every time I try to drillshine, so should I:
1. get a better timing
2. dair later
3. FF my dair

Thanks
You basically just need to know when dair is a good option and how to mix it up with other aerils accordingly. Sometimes its better not to fast fall it too. Its usually good when they're expecting a one-hit aerial and it throws off their out-of-shield response. It may keep them in shield or catch a move or roll they were gonna do.

Edit: I assumed you were talking about shield pressure. If not, then just tighten up your drillshine timings.
 

Bones0

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Hey guys, would anyone be willing to give me some advice on my recent set with Hungrybox? Any and all advice would be appreciated :)

If you don't want to take the time to watch carefully and give advice, even general comments/opinions (what you liked or didn't like etc) would be awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLZnHe_jbkE
Good stuff. He reads and ends up stuffing a lot of your jumps on BF. I also noticed you never space dair on his shield to bait shield grabs. He kept getting shined so I assume he was shield grabbing at least somewhat often when you drilled his shield, so maybe that's something to try when you're coming down from your FHs. It was usually pretty obvious when you were in "spaced bair mode" or "drillshine" mode based off of your spacing. I also felt like you didn't get as many followups off of shine as you could have, but there weren't that many instances so maybe you just didn't do it enough to get a good read on what he likes to do after getting shined.
 

Puca Readabook

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Hey

So im trying waveshine in place after rolling against the edge and i keep air dodging into oblivion

is it even possible to do this since one of your legs is basically not on the stage?

Edit: im pretty sure its possible lol, do you wd slightly towards the stage?
 

Bones0

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Hey

So im trying waveshine in place after rolling against the edge and i keep air dodging into oblivion

is it even possible to do this since one of your legs is basically not on the stage?

Edit: im pretty sure its possible lol, do you wd slightly towards the stage?
Pretty sure you have to be frame perfect when WDing all of the way up against the ledge.
 

SmashMac

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So I'm DD'ing/waiting and Marth is DD camping as well

Wtf do I do? Marth's ground game is strong and I'm so bad at neutral vs Marth. It's my worst MU, how do you do neutral vs Marth?
SHL him from the opposite side of the stage and force him to approach. That way just because he is rushing towards you he is putting himself at a worse overall position than you waiting for him.
 

Pengie

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So I'm DD'ing/waiting and Marth is DD camping as well

Wtf do I do? Marth's ground game is strong and I'm so bad at neutral vs Marth. It's my worst MU, how do you do neutral vs Marth?
If Marth is just DD camping, dash forward whenever he dashes away in his DD. If they're bad you'll slowly be able to work them to the edge where you can just abuse the fact that they gave up stage control for free, and if they're good they'll actually challenge your dashing forward with something like a dtilt or a grab. If they start doing this you can bait it out and punish it with something like running up and WDing in place just outside of their grab/dtilt range, or if they aren't grabbing as much, you can run up to them and shield and then punish what they did with a WD OoS. Generally speaking, running to the other side of the stage and shooting lasers is a bad idea because you give up tons of stage control in hopes that they approach badly and you get a punish. Outside of, like, Dream Land, you usually put yourself into a situation where Marth gets to either position himself however he wants in exchange for taking some percent, or you end up jumping above Marth which is obviously bad.
 

BTmoney

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If Marth is just DD camping, dash forward whenever he dashes away in his DD. If they're bad you'll slowly be able to work them to the edge where you can just abuse the fact that they gave up stage control for free, and if they're good they'll actually challenge your dashing forward with something like a dtilt or a grab. If they start doing this you can bait it out and punish it with something like running up and WDing in place just outside of their grab/dtilt range, or if they aren't grabbing as much, you can run up to them and shield and then punish what they did with a WD OoS. Generally speaking, running to the other side of the stage and shooting lasers is a bad idea because you give up tons of stage control in hopes that they approach badly and you get a punish. Outside of, like, Dream Land, you usually put yourself into a situation where Marth gets to either position himself however he wants in exchange for taking some percent, or you end up jumping above Marth which is obviously bad.
Yeah definitely don't think lasers are the answer vs campy Marth, getting corned by Marth as Fox is pretty tragic. I guess it really just comes down to dash dancing better than the Marth does. It seems like neutral vs Marth is sort of mixup based (instead of a flowchart/reaction style) and a matter of patience/baiting. I've been told that run up shine (and grab ofc when available) is your go-to move in this MU. Any word on that?

(as opposed to vs. Falco where he pits his tools/walls versus your mobility, I have a pretty good understanding of neutral in that MU but vs Marth man....)
 
D

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Yeah definitely don't think lasers are the answer vs campy Marth, getting corned by Marth as Fox is pretty tragic. I guess it really just comes down to dash dancing better than the Marth does. It seems like neutral vs Marth is sort of mixup based (instead of a flowchart/reaction style) and a matter of patience/baiting. I've been told that run up shine (and grab ofc when available) is your go-to move in this MU. Any word on that?

No you nailed it, all of it. The only part you missed was to stay just outside of Marth's range and to hunt him down with when he does the dash away on dashdance, but you also have to make sure he's not in a good position to pivot grab you so maybe being right up on him w/ nair shine is the right way to go. Normally I'd say "nair shine isn't that good in neutral" here but when you're right behind marth on his dash away you have a mild form of positional advantage since he doesn't have many options at that placement. just make sure you do the shine so you can't be CC grabbed.

look at you digging up tricks from 2005-2006 on your own. good ****.

the key to this MU isn't just "dashdance better" because you have to know why you're doing it better. in this case, the main advantage is that fox's dash is faster than marth's and that marth has a harder time switching between offensive and defensive type play than fox does. like every character does besides fox pretty much. you win the DD game as fox narrowly if you can catch him on the dash away. pretty much only fox and falcon can do that at all.
 

Pengie

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Yeah definitely don't think lasers are the answer vs campy Marth, getting corned by Marth as Fox is pretty tragic. I guess it really just comes down to dash dancing better than the Marth does. It seems like neutral vs Marth is sort of mixup based (instead of a flowchart/reaction style) and a matter of patience/baiting. I've been told that run up shine (and grab ofc when available) is your go-to move in this MU. Any word on that?

(as opposed to vs. Falco where he pits his tools/walls versus your mobility, I have a pretty good understanding of neutral in that MU but vs Marth man....)
Yeah pretty much this and what umbreon posted.

As for run up shine, I don't think it's particularly good because it involves getting really close to Marth without having a quick escape option because you'd have to enter your run meaning you wouldn't be able to just dash away quickly as an alternative, so it would become a really linear approach, which isn't really what you want when fighting Marth.

So yeah the TL;DR version of the Marth match-up is pay attention to both of your DDs and nair and grab a lot.
 
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Yeah pretty much this and what umbreon posted.

As for run up shine, I don't think it's particularly good because it involves getting really close to Marth without having a quick escape option because you'd have to enter your run meaning you wouldn't be able to just dash away quickly as an alternative, so it would become a really linear approach, which isn't really what you want when fighting Marth.

So yeah the TL;DR version of the Marth match-up is pay attention to both of your DDs and nair and grab a lot.
running shine is def one of youre most valuable options when fighting marth. its not unbeatable, but its still something youll need to face marth in the ground game at your full potential. you can also punish some stuff marth does in the neutral game with running shine, like dtilt. its also good for chasing him down that extra distance to catch his dash. and you do have a quick escape option; wd back or jump lol.

vs certain players, if you dash dance right, you can bait attacks and running shine can punish them. you have to set your dash dance up right tho, aka give yourself enough room to reach full run. i use running shine a ton in this set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9b34bRVBfk
 

Pengie

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Most of the running shines that you got were whiff punishes on him swinging in bad spots, which is really good because shining Marth means you get to do whatever you want to him and whiff punishing Marth is pretty free. So in those situations, yeah, I can see why running shine is super useful. I was talking more about in a strictly neutral sense where neither of you has really committed to anything. In those situations, running shine involves running directly into Marth's grab range which is way too big of a risk to take IMO. As far as the escape options, if you're going to put yourself into a position where you can directly threaten Marth with your shine, your WD back probably isn't gonna get you out of his grab range quickly enough and it definitely isn't getting you out of his sword's range so if their reactions are any good I think it's a really big risk to take. As for jumping, why would you willingly put yourself into that guessing game against Marth? It's so lopsided in his favor that I can't really see much a reason for it, especially when there are safer ways to go about getting Marth to swing at you.
 

Xyzz

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Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
SHFFLing at Marth is moving you right inside his grab range just as well, and yet people still do it all the time.
Putting yourself in the situation where you can threating Marth with your shine is about the same distance as a SHFFLed aerial from a dash jump would take you. He can't react to neither the dash jump nor the dash in. So as soon as you're at that spot, you're threatening him.

Just play around with runup shine. It obviously has a different set of counters and payoffs than what a SHFFL (or whatever) would have, but you can't just discard it as worthless.
 
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