Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Druggedfox]

1) If you ever need anything useful about the game, just go to google and type in "kirbykaze" followed by the relevant piece of information you are looking for. It's what I usually do.
2) http://www.smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/

 

[PGH Carroll]

Just gonna leave this here. Since you guys liked the first one.

 

[omgwtfToph]

You don't get a guaranteed shine, but SH non-FF drill on shield is so slow that it trips up the timing of a lot of players (even the Fox player doing the drill. Try it, the L-cancel timing is really late) so people mess up the OOS action most of the time.

Early NAIR on shield (with no fade back) is a terrible terrible idea for reasons that should be obvious to you.

 

[4 Aces]

1) If you ever need anything useful about the game, just go to google and type in "kirbykaze" followed by the relevant piece of information you are looking for. It's what I usually do.

2) http://www.smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/

1) Noted. Thanks.
2) Ok, why the hell is that no stickied? Soo useful. Thanks a bunch though. <3

You don't get a guaranteed shine, but SH non-FF drill on shield is so slow that it trips up the timing of a lot of players (even the Fox player doing the drill. Try it, the L-cancel timing is really late) so people mess up the OOS action most of the time.

Early NAIR on shield (with no fade back) is a terrible terrible idea for reasons that should be obvious to you.

Very interesting...sounds cool. I'll try it. Thanks.

 

[omgwtfToph]

It's a trick I originally got from Mango lol. Trust me, it's hella good.

 

[unknown522]

Drill reset is a noobstomp tech and will not work more than 5% of the time vs better players. I admittedly get into the habit of going for the drill reset, and it leads to be flubbing multiple punishments in tournament settings before I correct myself. Uair is far better, with waveland->other options and various bair manipulations coming after. I highly recommend breaking the habit of using it.

this

 

[ElloEddy]

question ....what to do VS that JMAN up smash style of fox ...i swear its so amazingly good for no reason .lol

 

[FourStar]

It's a trick I originally got from Mango lol. Trust me, it's hella good.

mango's too good

 

[Pengie]

question ....what to do VS that JMAN up smash style of fox ...i swear its so amazingly good for no reason .lol

uhhhh I'm gonna guess shielding's probably a good idea...

what exactly do you mean by "JMAN up smash style?"

 

[omgwtfToph]

I find it's more productive to ask what to do in a specific situation, or how to counter a specific tactic, than to ask hopelessly broad questions like that.

Especially when the terminology you're using, i.e. "jman up smash style of fox," isn't exactly well-defined.

 

[Voltz]

I could fox a peach for hours.

I think you just killed me.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iricyik5wwM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuQ2Dgpiin4 How do I Falco matchup?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niyq-gra8S4 How do I player skill?

On Dreamland it's quite easy, you're having a lot of trouble with the laser spam, it makes you stuck in shield. What you need to do is go single player mode and just learn to slide all over that goddamn stage, utilize platforms. Right now you're only just jumping on them and falling through them, you need to learn how to utilize your wavedash, especially against Falco. When he spams his lasers on the ground, don't even bother staying there. Take it to the top platform and drop on him from above. If you can force him in shield, great, don't even care about shield pressuring, go for a shinegrab as soon as you can.
Falco isn't a fun match-up until you are technically advanced. Falco's tech skill requirment is a lot lower than Fox's to be just as annoying, but once you get there where you can waveland/dash all over the stages and through his lasers, you can beat him. Falco is about getting more technical, getting better movement, being faster. If you're slow, he dictates the game, and screws you over.
Learn to play faster against him.

EDIT: As I keep watching, it looks like you do have the right idea at some times, but at other times you're at a loss for what to do. You're not putting enough pressure on the Falco with movement which lets him dictate your game.
And you throw out unnecessary moves quite a lot. You'll be surprised how great it is to land without doing an aerial, you can instantly run away instead of waiting for the aerial lag to finish. It's a part of keeping your movement.

On Battlefield, you're utilizing the platform better. He spams lasers, you retreat to platforms. Good stuff. Sometimes a shine for a laser from across the stage can do wonders in getting him to stop. You could powershield but shine is the lazy man's way.
Too bad you lost that match, you played well but on the last stock I noticed you got nervous and started playing worse.

 

[ElloEddy]

ok how to punish a fox who uses up-smash alot.. but very smart ..EX like jman ....

 

[Jim Morrison]

ok how to punish a fox who uses up-smash alot.. but very smart ..EX like jman ....

Recognize when he uses it and bait it. Don't fall into the pattern where you know you'll jump in. As soon as you recognize the U-smash situation, stop one moment and don't go in, then go in to punish it.
(with grab)

 

[Jim Morrison]

So uhm, has anyone ever noticed how when you do low aerials to the ground, when you use Z to do the aerials instead of A or C-stick, you instantly L-cancel without having to input L or R. I feel like this could be quite a handy trick especially when doing low bairs on shield and you're having trouble L-canceling or want to free up your finger from the L input.
I'm gonna play around with Z-aerials so you don't have to L-cancel.

EDIT: Aww **** after doing some testing it seems that it's incredibly hard to pull off when hitting targets. It only works when doing empty aerials without hitting anynoe

 

[Bones0]

You can L-cancel with Z, so even if you use it to aerial, it still counts as an L-cancel input. I don't see how it's really that much easier than pressing L at the same time as A, plus like you mentioned, when you aren't RIGHT above the ground it won't last long enough.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i know someone who just z spams to do dair l cancel grab. pretty weird but it works for him.

what i really came here to ask was: when you guys look to improve your laser game, how to you approach it? right now i'm just trying to move freely in training mode (dd things) and insert lasers while moving. is there any better approach to how i should think about lasers, their use, and how to implement them into my game?

edit: also, this is a game mechanic thing, but is there an angle that provides turnaround utilt vs turnaround up angled ftilt, or is the turnaround always read as an input separate of the utilt?

 

[Apasher]

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i've always kind of wondered what happened when i got the shine jc one. i've done it accidentally quite a few times and it's always felt really cool. good to see that the shine turn is one of the faster options, as its my preferred.

it's pretty funny this is here, cuz i've been sitting here on fd for the past 10 minutes looking for where side b edgecancels on FD and i was about to ask if it was even possible because none of my methods (going to teeter animation and aerial side bing away and back to it, rolling to the edge and side bing back and forth etc) have worked. maybe it takes a running start for some momentum?

 

[EWC]

You have to jump before you do the side b if you want to edgecancel.

 

[Divinokage]

Drill reset is a noobstomp tech and will not work more than 5% of the time vs better players. I admittedly get into the habit of going for the drill reset, and it leads to be flubbing multiple punishments in tournament settings before I correct myself. Uair is far better, with waveland->other options and various bair manipulations coming after. I highly recommend breaking the habit of using it.

It's not terrible on platforms but ya only sometimes when you are able to put your opponent in guessing situations. I mean if you manage a reset, you can sometimes nearly full charge a smash which does give very good position, all smashes work. lol. That Fox.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

also, this is a game mechanic thing, but is there an angle that provides turnaround utilt vs turnaround up angled ftilt, or is the turnaround always read as an input separate of the utilt?

Pretty sure there is such an angle, but if you press A too quickly, the turnaround animation will cancel. <-- Not sure how relevant that last bit is, all I know is, that's how it works with Link's double jab -> reverse utilt combo/pressure thing.

The angle is about 45 degree up and behind, but slightly more up.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so basically there is an angle that can both turn you around and utilt, but you have to make sure you're turned around first before you utilt. that's about what i expected.

also i knew you had to be aerial lol i just didn't have any method of getting the spacing for it. i guess it's only one pixel wide...not that it's a particularly viable tactic anyway, but i was just curious on any reliable way to acquire edgecancel spacing lol.

any input on working on lasers anyone?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yup you're on the right track, basically just keep practicing lasers until you can do them solidly. No need to be able to do fancy lasers, just learn how to do SHDL without killing yourself or putting yourself in a bad spot. More importantly is when to laser.
I, and many Foxes for that matter, don't really laser that often. The case where I laser the most is probably against Marth or someone else who has no projectiles and I don't feel like approaching. Marth, Peach, Sheik, those are the chars I use lasers against. Especially Marth, he just loves camping and dash dancing for you to come in. Force him to come to you with a F-air or something by spamming your SHDL at him.
For Peach, it's even more fun because you can laser, force her approach, punish her, run away, do it again. If you're playing against a Peach where you feel like you're losing because she is punishing your approaches, don't be shy with your lasers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dair reset is occasionally cute on flatland because you can kind of track their option based on how their body spasmodically responds to the little hits. On platforms they'll just slide off and then no combo. If you do get one, though, I recommend you do something ultra gay like SH uair after the dair.

 

[Stijn]

What should I do when a Samus is shielding? If I try to grab or Shine Nair on the shield, i usually get up-B 'ed. Full hops don't really work either.

 

[Bones0]

What should I do when a Samus is shielding? If I try to grab or Shine Nair on the shield, i usually get up-B 'ed. Full hops don't really work either.

Let her up-B and punish her once she's in the air. Samus players can be really tricky with their FFing and ledge cancelling, so I would just uair her around the peak of the up-B (right after the hitbox disappears) before they have the chance to do any shenanigans. If you can't bait an up-B or WD OoS, then just go in for a grab.

 

[genkaku]

can't you just run up and shield? Like, what's samus gonna do, grab?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm not a frame professional, but what about good old D-air > Shinegrab? It's almost infallible if a player just shields. I can imagine Samus being fast enough to get out.

If Samus is shielding, instead of trying to pressure her physically, you could also try to just bait/pressure mentally. With that I mean dashdance in front of her shield, her options aren't quite Fox-tier. If it's obvious she will shield, just run up and grab. If you feel like that won't work, run up, wavedash in place in front of her, bait reaction, react accordingly.
You say you're having trouble with the grab so I really suggest running up > wavedash in place. In case of shine Shine > Nair shield pressure not working, try shine grabs or wavedash back to get some space between you two.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Man, Samus is so bad.

On FD just attack the shield and make the gaps small. When she Up+Bs just mash B to AC land and u-smash her landing lag. The damage trade is so good it's a steal.

On not FD if you can treat it like FD because of positioning then treat it like FD. However, this will usually not be the case. In the more likely case she can interact with platforms, just pressure and try to bait the Up+B or space bairs in a way that she can't WD back d-smash them or up+B OOS and you're golden.

Or spend 5 minutes to learn Sheik vs Samus. Which is basically d-throw uair > wait > hit her more (probably with bair or more uair or shield grab on a combo break aerial). Which is Fox vs all the good non-FFer characters anyway so it's something you're used to doing.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah FD is always my counterpick vs Samus because you can legitimately shield pressure her there.

On other stages I like to mix in shielding with my shield pressure. I'll nair her shield and then shield myself, and basically make her respect my nair. Once they're scared to up-B, you go from there. Samus honestly doesn't get a lot out of up-B'ing you if you don't DI like an idiot, and baiting an up-B is an uair into more stuff/good position so why not.

Edit: Which is basically what KK said so I hope I'm not being redundant.

 

[unknown522]

In some cases you can DI out of samus' up-b and land first on FD.

But yeah, generally just spacing b-air on her shield is good. Just don't do it at CC percents.

Shield is good vs her up-b like everyone said.......if your shield holds. It almost always pokes my shield so I don't bother trying it often. I've seen lots of people's shields hold vs it though, so it's probably worth doing.

spacing aerials on her shield is good, or doing SH shine -> waveland on platform to try and bait a reaction.

empty SH -> waveland back is also a good mixup.

edit: spacing f-tilt/u-tilt is not bad on her shield. But bad at CC percents. since she can't shield grab it. Just beware of WD oos -> d-smash.




basically, just don't spam n-air at her

I'm not a frame professional, but what about good old D-air > Shinegrab? It's almost infallible if a player just shields. I can imagine Samus being fast enough to get out.

she can and should up-b oos before you grab. You may land a shinegrab once in a while, but it really should never ever work

If Samus is shielding, instead of trying to pressure her physically, you could also try to just bait/pressure mentally. With that I mean dashdance in front of her shield, her options aren't quite Fox-tier. If it's obvious she will shield, just run up and grab. If you feel like that won't work, run up, wavedash in place in front of her, bait reaction, react accordingly.
You say you're having trouble with the grab so I really suggest running up > wavedash in place. In case of shine Shine > Nair shield pressure not working, try shine grabs or wavedash back to get some space between you two.

this is good advice

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Yeah I wouldn't touch samus in her shield. Jus make her realize she's bad and bair is good and fox can dash around everything she wants to do oos.

I can shdl fine, but I think I spend mental energy in the tech rather than being fluid wiith it so I'm going to give those up. I think us foxes should probably shoot more, but we have to be aware when we do it. I think my goal is to be able to shoot safely out of my movement to harass and annoy them. SHFF laser seems better in that regard. I agree about the when u don't feel like approaching thing, but I think they'd be good to mix in your game even if you're comfortable pushing forward.

 

[Vixen]

To encroach on shooting more, I agree.

I watch lots of fox vids. Especially vs other foxes, and fs falcon. I never see anyone shoot, which at the same time is a bit of a pride moment for me. I feel pretty confident in my knowledge of when to shoot stuff as fox.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[KirbyKaze]

Something to beware about pressure vs Samus (and other characters with similar high quality normals and a decent WD out of shield) is that when you do things like bair into more bair for pressure, the gap between attacks is negotiable for a WD and the aerials commit until landing, which is food for Samus's d-smash and so forth.

Shine into anything is a wash AFAIK because honestly I think Samus players base their defensive Up+B out of shield mostly off when they hear a shine, since the hole in the pressure string after the shine is relatively fixed. Failing that, I feel the other complimentary factor to shine presence is spacing or timing of the aerial if its hit placement was not close to the space animal's landing spot. I notice people tossing shine-grab around as a mixup for anti-Samus. I honestly think you're better off with a conditioning mix of low aerial > shield or jump away (avoids Up+B and some protection from her WD game) and low aerial > instant grab (

I'm not saying don't do pressure with spaced aerials. Just pay attention for WD and respect her WD into normals. Her d-smash hurts sometimes :/


Oh someone asked about lasers? Fox's laser doesn't really help him grab people (aside from sort of making people more willing to play close to you but it kind of can do that without you using it much so doing it more than the amount needed to reap that reward isn't really beneficial IMO or even recommended) so it's not worth working with too intensely (don't build a playstyle around it!). Fox as a character needs to hit close to the opponent to get a solid hit because his most wanted moves are grab, u-smash, shine (on grounded humans, anytime vs spacies), bair, and so forth. They hit close to his body which means he needs a proximity for them to work. Lasers by necessity demand horizontal distance. Fox likes controlling where the fighting is because he needs to out-position to win exchanges, which means he likes interacting with the movement hubs at center stage. Laser sort of works against this in a small way by its horizontal distance demand because Fox's gun is stupid and doesn't protect itself like Falco's.

So yeah. Actually, something I've been wondering is if I'm just skeptical. Lasers get a lot of attention but honestly I just don't see its charms aside from maiming Bowser and similar garbage tier characters who have no real options against Fox's movement; to me, Fox's laser comes off as a really shallow move in general. Free chip damage poke from a certain distance but the attack itself offers no protection - you have to have all that arranged beforehand. So using laser more or better really deals more with getting into those positions more or better, which is movement game. Not really laser game. The lasers you get to fire are merely a byproduct of tweaking your movement game and threat exertion versus your opponent's willingness to bum-rush you.

I guess if I had to give tangible advice though I'd say just make sure the opponent knows that lasers exist but if you shoot more than 20% off their stock from neutral then you're probably doing too many or they're really boring to play against. If you get hit out of a laser or find yourself trying to shoot a laser at a distance you know is unsafe but feel you can get away with it, regardless of whether it is unpunished or not you are shooting too many because if you could get away with 1-3% you could have gotten away with messing with their positioning in an actual meaningful way too and that would have been way better.

 

[Vixen]

The main reason I like lasers is because it makes people want to approach me.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[BTmoney]

pop up essays ****yes

 

[Bones0]

Lazers are meh.

What do you think about lasering people as they float back down? Perhaps it's just habit from Falco, but I sometimes opt to laser people for damage instead when they drift back down to the stage when it's a character like Luigi or something where they are hard to really hit without getting ****ed up, especially if I'm at high %s where I can't afford to trade. I can usually land 3-4 lasers, sometimes 1-2 more if they're high enough that I can land and shoot again, so I figure that's about the same as a single aerial without any of the risk. Is that okay occasionally, or should I just get better at uairing/bairing safely?

 

[Pengie]

What do you think about lasering people as they float back down? Perhaps it's just habit from Falco, but I sometimes opt to laser people for damage instead when they drift back down to the stage when it's a character like Luigi or something where they are hard to really hit without getting ****ed up, especially if I'm at high %s where I can't afford to trade. I can usually land 3-4 lasers, sometimes 1-2 more if they're high enough that I can land and shoot again, so I figure that's about the same as a single aerial without any of the risk. Is that okay occasionally, or should I just get better at uairing/bairing safely?

DD grabbing them and putting them back in the air is probably a better idea than getting 6-8% on them from lasers and letting them go back to neutral. uair/bair also seem like better alternatives than getting a small amount of damage and losing such a strong positional advantage.

 

[genkaku]

clip where fox (lovage?) is pressuring on left side of battlefield, walks away, charges upsmash, and the other guy rolls into it?